[OB] Honor died eight months ago?!? + An Obituary

[KalaDANG]

So, I was recently and am still doing another reread of TWoK, and I've been trying to read into EVERYTHING, because Brandon has hinted that there are a TON of things hidden in TWoK and WoR. Stuff like basically all of the Heralds being on shown on screen or having their secret identity referenced, and how Brandon said in a WoB that in one of those two books (TWoK and WoR) had something similar to how he hid the ending of Hero of Ages in the beginning of the books. So i've just gone crazy overthinking everything. And I noticed this little internal monologue kaladin has when he's in Tvlakv's slave wagon. 

"Men who had no honor. Were there men who had honor? No, Kaladin thought. Honor died eight months ago.

And I realize he is obviously on the surface referencing how Amaram betrayed him and branded him and made him a slave and essentially ruined his life and such, but Brandon being Brandon, I was just thinking maybe it has a bit more significance than just a simple throwback to Amaram's betrayal. If we assume that it IS Brandon being sneaky and trying to tell us that CAPITAL "H" HONOR died eight months ago. I mean, really, stuff on Roshar doesn't really start to pick up until around that time, and then everything goes CRAZY. It has been heavily implied that Odium put off his plans until this time on Roshar for a reason. And if this really is when Honor died, it would make SO MUCH SENSE. No DUH Odium would wait until Honor was completely dead (Leras - Secret History Style) to start setting his plans in motion. Now the good guys haven't even got a dying shard on their side! All they got is one Stormfather, 10 insane Heralds, 0 full radiants, and Cultivation, who, to this point seems content to just sit in a cave be lame. Team Honor all the way. It had better turn out that she's actually accomplishing something in there. I mean, besides blessing people who go in anyways. But yeah! Uppercase Honor died eight months ago!!! I'm sticking with it until one of the arcanists starts throwing WoB's at me or something. 

JEZRIEN OBITUARY

Jezrien, age (WAY OLD), passed away violently at the end of Oathbringer in Kholinar by the fancy knife of Vyre. He graduated a long time ago with Honors (Haha that was an accident) from Ballerz High School in Natanatan. Worked as a project manager on the Oathpact, and is most well known for his appearances in, Desolation: A Roshar Story, and all of its many sequels. He had a wonderful knack for leadership, and enjoyed spending time with his daughter, subjects, and very much later, his drinking buddy, Dalinar Kholin.  He is survived by his loving daughter Shalash, and eight of his senile old choir dectet buddies, The Heralds. As our old friend and protector Jezrien passes into the void, let us all remember and think to ourselves,, "Yes we have seen you, and we'll never forget you."

[Stormfather-in-Law]

Gavilar's visions started well before "8 months ago." I know we haven't seen the content of those visions directly on screen, but if Honor were still alive at the time I think better info would have been passed along.

 

[Weltall]

Tanavast was dying at the time of the Recreance (a fact confirmed by the Stormfather and by Brandon) and was actually dead well before the present day. He even tells Dalinar in his final WoK vision that by the time anyone is seeing this, he's dead, sorry about that. And as mentioned, we know for a fact that Gavilar was seeing the same visions as Dalinar and he died some five years before Kaladin said that line. Given that the visions stop at the Recreance and the only one to show anything past that point is one that Tanavast admits is conjecture on his part, we can safely put the time of his actual death at thousands of years before the start of the series.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Weltall

[KalaDANG]

I was thinking more along the lines of a basically powerless Honor finally meeting his end at that point in the book and moving on. We saw in secret history that 

Spoiler

Leras took for storming ever to die, and that it was YEARS and YEARS before that Ruin had actually killed him, and it had just taken years and years for the Leras that Kelsier saw in the cognitive realm to finally succumb to his wounds and pass on to the beyond. It's kind of a similar situation to Odium and Honor's fight if you think about it. One shard who is invested on a higher level than the other, leaving them weakened, allows the less invested shard to kill them. I mean, we know that Honor at least died really slowly. This can be supported by what Stormfather tells Dalinar about how Honor gave the responsibility of creating honorspren to Stormfather, and how at one point, Honor wasn't able to lead the Radiants and everyone like he was supposed to because he was dying. It took THOUSANDS of years for Leras to finally die. We know that the fight between him and Ati that led to his death was long before even the lord ruler.

So I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that it's at least possible for it to have happened the same way with Honor and Odium. The stories between these four shards and their conflicts are really nice parallels when you look at them that way. I mean, Honor even trapped Odium like Preservation trapped Ruin. And yeah. The Gavilar being a Proto-Bondsmith thing kind of was hard to think through, but it's completely possible that Honor chose Gavilar and started showing him the visions before he actually died. I mean, he obviously crafted the visions before he died, and I don't know if he'd really want to wait to start sending that out. I dunno, it's just me. It would be kind of similar to Preservation choosing Vin before he actually went to the beyond to be the next vessel. Similarly, it's possible that Honor started putting his plans into motion, like sending the visions to someone, before he died. It happens. It would be an even BIGGER parallel if the Dalinar-Unity thing ends up actually being a shard thing.

Spoiler

Preservation was grooming Vin for YEARS. 

 Haha and yeah, I remembered that WoS (Words of Stormfather haha) from the book when I was first typing it up, and it kind of didn't seem like it necessarily disproved it. I mean, he said that Honor was dying back then, but (Mistborn Spoiler)

Spoiler

Preservation was "Dying" for thousands years. 

So I don't know if the WoS technically disproves it. All it technically proves is that Honor was dying back then, and that the fight with Odium had been before that. It doesn't necessarily go against the theory because we have no time of death. I mean, in the grand scheme of things, the Recreance wasn't much more than a thousand years ago right? That fits pretty well with the mistborn stuff. Definitely within the realm of possibility. I don't want to argue all over it though. One more thing though, I don't think the fact that the visions end at the recreance is because that's just when Honor died. I just don't think there would be any reason to put anything into the visions that didn't include the radiants or heralds in some way. He was trying to help in the fight against Odium, and there isn't anything relevant to that fight after the Recreance. I need to stop typing. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by KalaDANG

[KalaDANG]

...

Edited July 10, 2018 by KalaDANG
I’m dumb

[Weltall]

Psssst, double-posting is considered bad form.

Now, all your thoughts about Leras dying when confronted by Ruin are predicated on the assumption that their situation is equivalent to Honor and Odium. They're not. Khriss in Secret History notes that what's going on there is very different from Shards being splintered elsewhere and that Ruin either doesn't have the power to splinter another Shard (which we know is not the case with Odium as he's done it multiple times) or he doesn't know how (also very obviously not the case with Odium). Also, Leras left himself practically mindless as part of his scheme to hold back Ruin and once the latter was free to act, his actual death followed within a year at most, not thousands of years.

So, we know that Honor was in a state not unlike that of Leras shortly before his death, that he was in this state around the time of the Recreance and he was facing a Shard that was far more informed and capable of properly splintering another. The idea that Honor could survive for two thousand years (and it's nearer that than one thousand) of that kind of assault is simply impossible to credit.

[KalaDANG]

Technically I didn't double post, I triple posted. Lol. This is just like defending a thesis. Wouldn't wanna break with convention. Conformity is indeed a requirement. But no need to worry about it now. This is quadruple posting. Technically you double posted though. Haha. I'm just discussing it. I hope you aren't reading it as an angry post, it's just something I thought was interesting and I wanted to talk about it. I'm not really a one and done kind of guy. So I'm sorry if my multiple posting is annoying. Back to what we're talking about though, I can see where you're coming from. Though, the fact that Odium could splinter Honor doesn't really come into play in this because like you and Stormfather said, Honor was dying during the Recreance. And if Honor was dying, that means he wasn't dead yet, and hadn't been splintered, because Honor was still around. That means that Odium would have had to have splintered Honor AFTER he dealt the blow that ended up killing him, because Shards can't be splintered while their vessels are alive. So if you're looking at it that way (assuming that everything I said was accurate) it's possible that Odium might have had to wait until Honor died the long way before splintering him, giving Honor lots of time to prepare. And haha yeah, the Ruin/Preservation story and Honor/Odium stories aren't exactly the same I didn't mean to say they were.  Odium's a lot craftier and can see the future, unlike Ruin, and Preservation trapped Ruin's mind, but Honor actually trapped Odium on Braize. But they are undeniably similar. I mean, if I describe one of them without some details, it would be hard to tell one from the other. For example -

A Shard resides on a planet and becomes so heavily invested that it leaves them weakened and open for an attack from another Shard. In the battle, the Shard we first spoke of is dealt a mortal blow, but succeeds in trapping the other Shard. The first Shard then dies slowly and tries to set up a plan to protect the residents of their planet from the trapped shard, in order to hopefully eventually defeat it, and set it in motion.

Also I just thought of it, but both Odium and Preservation manifested themselves to non-hemalurgically stabbed people in spectral and insubstantial forms. Ruin - Mist guy. Odium - Hologram Parshman guy.

I can't really tell the difference.  But you're right, I was highlighting the similarities and ignoring the differences. Odium is a TON craftier than Ruin. Honor was somehow able to trap him though, so he isn't infallible. And I think even though he is insanely crafty, he's trapped. And isn't able to take action like he wants to. Again, I just want to discuss it. I'm not. I just don't see the sense of posting a theory if I'm not going to defend it. I mean, these forums are for discussion. That implies talking back and forth. Not just stating something and accepting the following rebuttals even if you don't agree. But I hope you don't read this in angry voice. I was smiling the whole time I typed this stuff out. Partly because I make myself laugh even though I'm probably not that funny, but I really like talking about this stuff. That's why I'm on the site. So yeah, read it in a weird but happy Sanderson nerd voice. Nerd - a foolish or contemptible person who lacks social skills or is boringly studious. I would add "Annoying" somewhere in there, because I'm obviously bothering you. But yeah. Lets be friends @Weltall

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, KalaDANG said:

Technically I didn't double post, I triple posted. Lol. This is just like defending a thesis. Wouldn't wanna break with convention. Conformity is indeed a requirement. But no need to worry about it now. This is quadruple posting. Technically you double posted though. Haha. I'm just discussing it.

"double posting" is when your posts are back to back with no one else in between them. He brought it up because it's against the forum rules. If you have more to add and no else has posted yet, there's an edit button for a reason. Doing otherwise is something that will get the mods on you eventually. He wasn't angry, he was trying to save you a headache later. 

[KalaDANG]

Ohhhhhhhhhhh I gotcha. This changes everything. My bad. Hopefully Weltall and I can be friends anyways.

Edited July 10, 2018 by KalaDANG

[RShara]

Sorry, Tanavast has been dead for a long time. The Stormfather is partially Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow (Kelsier was a Cognitive Shadow). Stormfather absorbed Tanavast's CS after he died, which is why he refers to himself as a Sliver. Also, as others have mentioned, Gavilar was receiving the visions before he died and that was a good 6 years ago.

[Kokotheworm]

A question I have been asking myself ever since I read Odium screaming like a little girl during Dalinar perpendicularity , this passage

"No!" Odium Screamed. He stepped forward. "No, we killed you. WE KILLED YOU"

Was Odium making a reference to Tanavast or Adonalsium here? Since Dalinar is bound to the Stormfather I thought he was talking about Honor's vessel, which bring the question of who is this we he is talking about. I don't think Odium consider the fused and him as being part of a "team" so anything less than another shard would be I killed you using my pawn. Hence did Cultivation turn on Honor or was some other player involved. 
The other option, Odium referencing Adonalsium would indicate  that in that instance Dalinar went beyond what Honor could do and somehow Odium saw the old God in that. I rather like the option since it tie's a bit with Dalinar other vision and feeling and it put some distance between the idea of Cultivation joining Odium in murdering their pal Tanavast.

[Weltall]

We don't know yet and Brandon has RAFO'd all attempts to get more information out of him.

[Passion]

Just thought I’d add something I just noticed. In the last vision from storm father after the world is shown destroyed then all the lights in the sky wink out. Though whole passage went over my head at first but I now understand from the context it was saying that odium threatens not just Roshar but all the planets and all the shards. This is followed by another unite them... so yes I’ve joined the group who believe unite them refers to more than just Roshar but rather all the shards ( or something similar)