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Who's attacking Scadrial?


NiceBleach

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Wouldn’t that weaken her considerably though? Creating a whole bunch of independent beings and infusing each with a fraction of her power would presumably require her to ‘give up’ that same amount of her own power in at least some sense. If so, she certainly shouldn’t be able to stand up to Harmony.

Edited by Fanghur Rahl
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15 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Wouldn’t that weaken her considerably though? Creating a whole bunch of independent beings and infusing each with a fraction of her power would presumably require her to ‘give up’ that same amount of her own power in at least some sense. If so, she certainly shouldn’t be able to stand up to Harmony.

And thus you enter into the Autonomy Avatar debate. There are a variety of theories on what exactly is going on with Autnomy's avatars, none of which can currently be confirmed or denied.

Most of them follow the idea that the Shard is infinite, but the mind is not. So, make more minds, control more power. 

Edited by Wandering Investor
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Well, the problem with that is that it would then make it a meaningless statement to say that Harmony has more raw power than any other Shard; infinity times anything is still infinity. I’ve always looked at it as the Shards being unfathomably powerful, but not infinitely so. I just think that makes the most sense. Though I may just be overthinking it.

Although, it kinda begs an interesting (though most likely false) question: could the Shards in some sense be ‘avatars’ of Adonalsium?

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It gets confusing and some things don't add up. Some theories say that infinity for shards means a never ending cycle. There's a limited amount of power, but its constantly reused so it never runs out. Others think the actual power of the shards is infinite, but the mind of the vessel can only control so much. This would require that the mind of Sazed has been expanded past what the other vessels have had, in order to be considered stronger than than the other shards. Or maybe the shards have unassigned power that they can use, and the rest is locked into the fabric of the universe, so infinite but only some is available for use. We don't know enough about shards to be sure.

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It's not just the kind, but also location. Sazed only has access to the investiture that Leras and Ati brought with them when picked up, and to that which is localized in the Scadrian system. 

Quote

Questioner

How far does Sazed's power actually extend?

Brandon Sanderson

It is mostly limited to his immediate sphere of influence, so the planet.

Questioner

But doesn't he move stars at the end?

Brandon Sanderson

No, he moved the planet. His solar system, he can definitely have influence on the solar system. But none of the other planets around Scadrial are inhabited.

source

Then we have the whole mess that Bavadin seems to be doing. Awakening pockets of investiture elsewhere through "Avatars" which in my opinion, bypasses the whole issue. 

Spoilered for length. 

Spoiler
Quote

ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The investiture on that planet is residue, normal investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a shard present. Indeed, I would say that no shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor shard worlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What shard is this investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all investiture ever predates the shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and investiture are one thing.

I always imagine investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To investiture, Adonalsium's shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "invested" there? No, no more than you're invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

source
Quote

Yurisses [PENDING REVIEW]

Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, it is. That one is even closer associated with a Shard, the actual Investiture of the magic. Remember when I say Investiture, I mean matter, energy and magic. Sometimes the word Investiture just to the magic such as the Aviar and in that it is associated directly with one of the Shards...

Yurisses [PENDING REVIEW]

Which one?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium. *silence*

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Sorry, can you say that again?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]

Is that one of the Aviar?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No that is the island.

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Island or islands?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The island but Patji is one of the islands.

Yurisses [PENDING REVIEW]

It's a Shard?!

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, big asterisk! But yes.

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]

Shard as in equal or Shard as in a mass of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

As in one of the 16 Shards of Adonalsium is represented and involved in First of the Sun. In fact, one of the letters references First of the Sun in this *Indicates Oathbringer*

Sorry, I probably killed some theories on that one.

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Yup, but by doing that you've confirmed some as well so it's fine!

Footnote: The asterisk Brandon is referencing is that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy.
source

 

So I believe that the Shards are infinite, but the Cosmere itself is a limited location. This wouldn't have been an issue for Adonalsium, because he would have been all of the power, everywhere, in a form that arose from that very power and could access it all. 

The Vessels though, expanded as they may be, are styill limited to perception and their sphere of influence, and as such can only manipulate the power present there directly. 

Harmony is doubly strong comparitively, because he has access to two pools of power, and all of the local investiture associated with both of those pools, including the primary chunks that were picked up by the original Vessels at the Shattering. The "infinite" nature of the Shards is not accessible to them, even if they can touch it in the Spiritual. 

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2 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Well, the problem with that is that it would then make it a meaningless statement to say that Harmony has more raw power than any other Shard; infinity times anything is still infinity. I’ve always looked at it as the Shards being unfathomably powerful, but not infinitely so. I just think that makes the most sense. Though I may just be overthinking it.

Although, it kinda begs an interesting (though most likely false) question: could the Shards in some sense be ‘avatars’ of Adonalsium?

hehe, I took an entire class on college on which infinities were bigger than others, lots of Cantor and Godel.  It warps the brain a bit but it can be logically done. 

 

I think the Hexadieties would be closer to Splinters in that they are carved off with distinct purpose/functions form each other.  But to say they are "closer" is to pretend that I have any idea what an avatar is.

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Well, for the sake of the sanity of everyone involved, let’s just assume for the sake of argument that Brandon is unaware of advanced calculus or at the very least is not utilizing it in his books in any fundamental way. lol. At any rate, I confess that the idea of the Shards each having limitless power no matter what they do kind of rubs me the wrong way, because the thing about magic in the Cosmere is that pretty much without exception it is very much rule-based and almost scientific in a sense. It always has very precise limits and domains of applicability. 

It would seem, then, that there very well could be some analog of energy conservation inherent in the Cosmere; conservation of investiture so to speak. I’m a relatively recent fan of Brandon Sanderson’s works, so for all I know someone has actually asked him this question and had him reply in the negative, but it would certainly seem to fit in with what we know about how magic works in his universe from what I’ve been able to tell so far. And if that is the case, then it would indeed follow that for every avatar that Autonomy creates, it leaves the ‘Prime’ proportionately weakened, at least if we assume that the avatars are each individual autonomous beings.

Then again, perhaps the Shards are able to draw limitless power from the Spiritual Realm to replenish themselves over time; I dunno. Like I said, it just rubs me the wrong way because it would effectively mean that Autonomy is creating entirely new Shards, and that would NOT seem to fit with what we know about how the Cosmere works.

Edited by Fanghur Rahl
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@Fanghur Rahl there is definitely a cost. There's no way that what Autonomy is doing just allows her to create more of herself and be the uncontested "strongest" shard. I think what she's fracturing is her own mind to seed the creation of new ones, further limiting herself as an individual vessel, but becoming stronger in aggregate.

Rather than continue to derail this thread though, I'll link to one dedicated to this discussion. 

 

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Yeah like @Calderis says what Autonomy has been doing has to have a side-effect of getting stronger(it's Sanderson so i doubt there won't be) .

It's interesting that if Autonomy haves a harder time managing to shard powers because of the avatars then we have two of the most powerful shard in cosmere facing off. While both being uhm conflicted by their own nature. Now that's fun lol

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Well, like I said before, I still can’t help but suspect that Autonomy might be a red herring and the true threat one of the remaining as-yet unknown Shards; presumably of a more malevolent nature. The way I see it, we’ve so far only seen two unambiguously malevolent Shards, Odium and Ruin, with Dominion being a potential third but not necessarily, and I think there has to be at least one more. Possibly Avarice or Jealousy. It’s certainly plausible if nothing else.

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1 hour ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Well, like I said before, I still can’t help but suspect that Autonomy might be a red herring and the true threat one of the remaining as-yet unknown Shards; presumably of a more malevolent nature. The way I see it, we’ve so far only seen two unambiguously malevolent Shards, Odium and Ruin, with Dominion being a potential third but not necessarily, and I think there has to be at least one more. Possibly Avarice or Jealousy. It’s certainly plausible if nothing else.

That's entirely possible, as there are a few shards remaining. But in regards to Scadrial, Brandon has stated that the shard responsible for the attack on Scadrial is known. Of the known shards, Autonomy is the most likely to be attacking Scadrial, hence why there is all the buzz and theories about her.

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1 hour ago, Wandering Investor said:

That's entirely possible, as there are a few shards remaining. But in regards to Scadrial, Brandon has stated that the shard responsible for the attack on Scadrial is known. Of the known shards, Autonomy is the most likely to be attacking Scadrial, hence why there is all the buzz and theories about her.

That’s true, but as I understand it, and admittedly I’m far from up-to-date on my WOBs so I’m just going on what Coppermind says and assuming it’s up-to-date, the Obrodai Shard hasn’t actually been confirmed as being Autonomy, that’s just what people have assumed. So technically what Brandon said could be true, as we have ‘seen’ that Shard, and yet we might still not know its identity. That’s my suspicion, because it does tend to have a bit of an avaricious or jealous vibe to it from what we’ve read, what with it creating avatars on multiple worlds to claim them as its own and discouraging Hoid from interfering with its affairs, so it could very well be Avarice. But like I said, maybe I just need to get caught up on the WOBs.

Edited by Fanghur Rahl
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49 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

That’s true, but as I understand it, and admittedly I’m far from up-to-date on my WOBs so I’m just going on what Coppermind says, the Obrodai Shard hasn’t actually been confirmed as being Autonomy, that’s just what people have assumed. So technically what Brandon said could be true and yet we could still not know its identity.

I'm not sure we even knew Patji was a Shard at the time of the quote. And even if it was, it is generally understood that when Brandon says a shard we know of, he means we know the name of. At the time we knew of nine shards by name. Of them Autonomy is considered the most likely.

The Obrodai Shard is a different subject that came up later. Theories connected the dots on that separately to determine that Autonomy was the most likely, although with less certainty than the Autonomy attacking Scadrial theory..

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At the time of the quote, Brandon said that the metal was from a Shard we knew. Here's the quote, with the Shards we knew at the time listed in the Footnote. 

Quote

Chaos

I'm sorry Brandon, you might RAFO me.

*written* For the metal in Bleeder, is it from a Shard we know?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh no… You drove all this way, that's what makes me. Eric comes and he's like--

Chaos

You RAFO'd me at Words of Radiance--

Brandon Sanderson

I know.

Chaos

--I asked you a question that was too much.

Brandon Sanderson

…you push, yeah… There you are you got your answer. You got me.

*writes* Yes.

Footnote: at that time we knew 9 Shards: Devotion, Dominion, Preservation, Ruin, Odium, Honor, Cultivation, Endowment and Autonomy
source

He's also said that the Shard the metal is associated with is the same entity calling itself Trell. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Is the metal that Bleeder was associated with and had, is the Shard associated with that metal the same entity that's calling itself Trell?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

source

We also know that the only place that we've heard the term "Obrodai" from is from Autonomy, and that it was meant to be obvious. 

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Chaos [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

Did you mean to imply that Autonomy wrote the second letter in Oathbringer back there, with the aspects thing?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

Yeah, I did.

(He did imply that it was supposed to be fairly obvious.)

source

 

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Alright, I’m that case, consider my argument against it being Autonomy retracted. Though someone really ought to update the relevant Coppermind pages, as the Autonomy and Obrodai pages, respectively, make no mention at all of each other and neither does the TV Tropes page.

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