[OB] what was the thing Dalinar summoned?

[Calderis]

Just now, Zape said:

we do not understand the oathgates because of that we cannot make any assumptions on what will or will not activate them

I'll continue to disagree. 

[Zape]

Just now, Calderis said:

I'll continue to disagree. 

fair enough

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Dalinar essentially tried to force the Stormfather to become a blade. He succeeded enough to work the gate, even if what appeared wasn't a truly physical blade. 

Ok I had this exact same argument with Rshara in another group ! I felt Dalinar tried to force the Stormfather into becoming a blade . It was Rshara so of course I lost . 

 

 Dalaniar was no where near the oathgate . Teft came thru the Oathgate . Dalinar was by the physical side of Honor Perpindicularity  . The spren of the gate said by Honor’s decree the gate was closed. Dalinar temporarily Ascended and took Honor place and opened the perpindicularity . Bonding the spiritual , cognitive , and physical realm together . I’m sure many will say he did not ascended.. Well in my defense I offer Odiums own words to Taravangion: “ I do not know what happened, Dalinar was not supposed to be able to Ascend. I Propose since Honor is dead and Dalinar being the only Bondsmith he can make deals on Honor behalf , Like agreeing to a contest of champions, opening or closing Honor perpindicularity , freeing Odium etc . When Dalinar makes these decisions on the behalf of the splinter of honor , He is Known as Unity. Go ahead and tear me. Apart now but it’s my two cents 

[Govir]

18 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Dalinar essentially tried to force the Stormfather to become a blade. He succeeded enough to work the gate, even if what appeared wasn't a truly physical blade. 

Dalaniar was no where near the oathgate . Teft came thru the Oathgate .

I think you're referring to two different events. The quote is from when Dalinar is fleeing Azir (i.e. when he remembered how Evi died and had to get away), where as Teft came through the Oathgate during the big battle.

1 hour ago, Zape said:

we do not understand the oathgates because of that we cannot make any assumptions on what will or will not activate them

While we do not fully understand the Oathgates, we do know a little bit. We know the following:

1. "Dead" shardblades do not work.
2. "Living" Shardblades do work
3. Honorblades *may* work

To your original question of "What did Dalinar summon that allowed the Oathgate to work?" (assuming this is what you mean, and not what did he summon during the big battle). Based on what we know of Oathgates, the most likely answer is that Dalinar forced the Stormfather to manifest into a shardblade. The only assumption being made is that Dalinar *can* force the Stormfather into a Shardblade. It is possible that something else happened, but that would require more assumptions 1. that Dalinar can do whatever it is he did and 2. that doing that would allow the Oathgate to work. So until further information, I think Dalinar forced the Stormfather into a Shardblade in order to work the Oathgate in Azir.

 

Someone else mentioned about the Oathgate spren not allowing passage. If I remember correctly (and @Calderis will probably correct me if I'm wrong ), that was only disallowing passage between the realms (Shadesmar and the Physical Realm). Travel from Physical Realm to Physical Realm was still permitted. Therefore, the crew in Shardesmar couldn't get the Spren of the Oathgate to take them to the Physical Realm, but Teft was able to later use the Oathgate to get from Urithiru to the big battle (Thaylen?).

[KalaDANG]

Hahaha!

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

WHO. WILL. WIN.

PROBS CALDERIS CUZ HE'S GOT THE UPVOTES.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

6 hours ago, Govir said:

I think you're referring to two different events. The quote is from when Dalinar is fleeing Azir (i.e. when he remembered how Evi died and had to get away), where as Teft came through the Oathgate during the big battle.

You are 100 percent right ! I am referring to the big battle . So that means @CalderisI owe you an apology ! And @RShara I won’t that argument long ago , I just had my facts wrong ! We had a debate where I said Dalinar forced the Stormfather into a blade, and you said that Stormfather was shocked at what Dalinar was doing at opening a perp. Those were two separate events . I just must of overlooked it in my rereads

 

6 hours ago, Govir said:

original question of "What did Dalinar summon that allowed the Oathgate to work?" (assuming this is what you mean, and not what did he summon during the big battle). Based on what we know of Oathgates, the most likely answer is that Dalinar forced the Stormfather to manifest into a shardblade. The only assumption being made is that Dalinar *can* force the Stormfather into a Shardblade. It is possible that something else happened, but that would require more assumptions 1. that Dalinar can do whatever it is he did and 2. that doing that would allow the Oathgate to work. So until further information, I think Dalinar forced the Stormfather into a Shardblade in order to work the Oathgate in Azir.

 

Someone else mentioned about the Oathgate spren not allowing passage. If I remember correctly (and @Calderis will probably correct me if I'm wrong ), that was only disallowing passage between the realms (Shadesmar and the Physical Realm). Travel from Physical Realm to Physical Realm was still permitted. Therefore, the crew in Shardesmar couldn't get the Spren of the Oathgate to take them to the Physical Realm, but Teft was able to later use the Oathgate to get from Urithiru to the big battle (Thaylen?).

I’m with 200 percent @Calderis I think the Stormfather can say all day he won’t be a blade . If Dalinar really needs one , a blade he will become. It works off Perception . The Nahel Bond perceived Dalinar was in Danger and needed to get away . It Felt right to the bond. Dalinar was not using him to swing him about , which is technically what Dalinar agreed Too . So just Like Syl forced him to accept Kaladin words , Dalinar Made Stormfather get in line. I think Stormfather exaggerates his power in the bond. I bet he won’t admit it but he Has to do what Dalinar says period . He just doesn’t want Dalinar to know that .

[Calderis]

14 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I’m with 200 percent @Calderis I think the Stormfather can say all day he won’t be a blade . If Dalinar really needs one , a blade he will become. It works off Perception . The Nahel Bond perceived Dalinar was in Danger and needed to get away . It Felt right to the bond. Dalinar was not using him to swing him about , which is technically what Dalinar agreed Too . So just Like Syl forced him to accept Kaladin words , Dalinar Made Stormfather get in line. I think Stormfather exaggerates his power in the bond. I bet he won’t admit it but he Has to do what Dalinar says period . He just doesn’t want Dalinar to know that .

That's... Not what I'm saying at all. 

The bond is a Connection. It's not a thinking or sensing thing in itself. It is the way in which the souls of Dalinar and the Stormfather are connected. 

Dalinar tried to force the Stormfather to become a blade... And it worked enough to make the Oathgate activate, but it wasn't a blade that would be functional for fighting. If Dalinar were to do that, I think he'd have outright broken the bond and killed the Stormfather, assuming it's even possible for that to happen with how heavily connected he is to the storm itself. 

 

[KalaDANG]

To be honest though, I can't see Brandon going in the direction of allowing the Oathgates to be operated by objects powered by the Investiture of different shards. That wouldn't really make sense. I feel like we should look at the Oathgates in almost the same way we look at keyed metalminds, where only someone using some kind of Honor-Powered tool or splinter can use it. The Oathgates as far as we know are only able to function when being used by someone wielding Honorblades, Living Shardblades, and the one instance where Dalinar manipulates the Stormfather's essence to act as a key. All three of those things rely on Honor and his investiture. The Honorblades were supposedly created using parts of Honor's soul. Sentient spren consist of some combination of the essence of Honor and Cultivation in varying ratios. And the Stormfather's manipulated essence is obviously of Honor. So there are no instances leading us to believe that the Oathgates can function without being controlled by some kind of living or active splinter of Honor, or a piece of his essence. It's true that since there haven't been any instances of anyone trying to control it with Nightblood, Aons, or Aether or something, it doesn't necessarily mean that they can't control Oathgates, but the absence of evidence disproving it doesn't mean that they can either. It wouldn't make sense for Brandon to suddenly go that way when he has made it so clear that they aren't supposed to work using anything else. There have been several instances where in one of his books, there is a lack of understanding that leads the characters in it to create a false rule. But as the book goes on, he constantly hints that the rule has exceptions and isn't necessarily unbreakable. We see this in Bands of Mourning when : SPOILERS

Spoiler

Brandon tells us that keyed metalminds cannot be used by anyone except for the person who filled it. But we see in Bands of Mourning that if a person starts stuffing all of their Identity into a metalmind, not only can they use any metalmind, but they can also create a metalmind that anyone can use.

Unlike that instance, where Brandon was hinting towards that for the entire series, he hasn't even mentioned anything that makes me believe that the Oathgates could be operated by something else, like Nightblood. I'm more leaning towards the idea that he would destroy it.

Edited June 26, 2018 by KalaDANG

[Naurock]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

The oathgates are only able to be opened by living Shardblades and Honorblades. The Stormfather has told Dalinar that he will not be a Shardblade for him. Dalinar then summons an ephemeral blade shape that both seems to hurt and insult the Stormfather, and uses it to activate the Oathgate. 

Do you see a better explanation? 

Snappy Calderis is my favorite Calderis.

[Comatose]

Hey all.  I just went through and merged a few double posts from a couple different people.  Remember to edit your post if there haven't been any replies instead of posting repeatedly.  For quoting, the little "+" icon should allow you to quote multiple posts at once.  Thanks, and feel free to PM with any questions.

[Leyrann]

14 hours ago, Zape said:

we do not understand the oathgates because of that we cannot make any assumptions on what will or will not activate them

In fact, that's exactly what this forum is for: Looking at stuff that happened in the books, and making assumptions (aka theorizing) about what happened when we don't understand things.

[Draigon]

Have we ever seen the Oathgate activated by an Honorblade? When Kaladin brought it through at the end of WoR, he summoned Syl as a blade to work the gate. In Urithiru a radiant advanced enough to summon a blade was kept on "gate duty". I don't remember an Honorblade ever being used or mentioned as a possible key.

[Calderis]

55 minutes ago, Draigon said:

Have we ever seen the Oathgate activated by an Honorblade? When Kaladin brought it through at the end of WoR, he summoned Syl as a blade to work the gate. In Urithiru a radiant advanced enough to summon a blade was kept on "gate duty". I don't remember an Honorblade ever being used or mentioned as a possible key.

No, but we had a WoB that they would work pre-OB, and then this from Dalinar's narrative. 

Quote

Dalinar reached the steps downward, then wound around and around, holding a broam for light. If Captain Kaladin didn’t return soon, the Honorblade would provide another means of Windrunning—a way to get to Thaylen City or Azir at speed. Or to get Elhokar’s team to Kholinar. The Stormfather had also confirmed it could work Oathgates, which might prove handy.

 

[+robardin]

20 hours ago, Zape said:

we do not understand the oathgates because of that we cannot make any assumptions on what will or will not activate them

True, and yet, @Calderis' conclusion is the one that meets all the information we already have without making assumptions based on information that hasn't even been hinted at: that Oathgates are fabrials powered by Stormlight that are only operable by living Shardblades and Honorblades, and operate on the basis on two large spren in the Cognitive Realm that Sja-anat is able to corrupt. And what Dalinar summoned looked very much like a Shardblade, "but for the Blade part", and the Stormfather (who had begun their bond by declaring "I will not be as a sword to you") is upset by what he did.

So the principle of Occam's Razor suggests we should take that as the current most likely explanation - that Dalinar forced something in his bond with the Stormfather to materialize something Shardblade-like, if not a full Blade - until we discover anything else (including WoB, though I'm sure he'd RAFO any straightforward questions like "how did Dalinar open the Oathgate?")

 

 

3 hours ago, Draigon said:

Have we ever seen the Oathgate activated by an Honorblade? When Kaladin brought it through at the end of WoR, he summoned Syl as a blade to work the gate. In Urithiru a radiant advanced enough to summon a blade was kept on "gate duty". I don't remember an Honorblade ever being used or mentioned as a possible key.

Wasn't the attack by Parshendi/Fused on Urithiru done through the Oathgate from Kholiar, opened by the stolen Honorblade of Jezrien by agents who used Teft's Bridge Four coat to do so?

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Wasn't the attack by Parshendi/Fused on Urithiru done through the Oathgate from Kholiar, opened by the stolen Honorblade of Jezrien by agents who used Teft's Bridge Four coat to do so?

Malata opened the gate for them. It's in that attack that the Honorblade is stolen, when they killed Eth. 

[Steeldancer]

I interpreted it as not actually being a blade, but basically being the equivalent of a blade when you have a spren as big as the stormfather. I think the size of the Stormfather is part of the reason he isn’t supposed to be a blade. So, basically Dalinar ripped a piece of the stormfather off and shaped it into a blade-shaped piece of investiture. Not solid metal, but still investiture- and as such, can still operate the oathgate. 

[+robardin]

33 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Malata opened the gate for them. It's in that attack that the Honorblade is stolen, when they killed Eth. 

Ah, I forgot she was left behind in Urithiru (with Taravangian) while the rest of the Radiants there went off to Thaylen Fields.

Have they not figured out it was her, then? At the end of Oathbringer Dalinar knows that Mr. T's actions were motivated by an attempt to consolidate power, but thinks their overall goals still align - he rejects the idea that Taravangian was full on working with Odium and thinks he can still work with him going forward.

 

[Calderis]

38 minutes ago, robardin said:

Have they not figured out it was her, then?

Not to my knowledge. Dalinar thinks that Taravangian is ruthless, but still a tenuous ally, whose goals align even if the methods do not. 

They are aware that Honorblades can activate the oathgates, and that there are many that are unaccounted for. They also know by the end that the Oathgate of Kholinar has been corrupted, so they may blame the use of the device on that, and not on anything internal. 

I think the situation with the Skybreakers is going to change things for them, but I believe Dalinar at least is still somewhat stuck in the mindset that "Radiant" means ally.

[Govir]

3 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

I think the size of the Stormfather is part of the reason he isn’t supposed to be a blade.

Obligatory (Spoilered for size):

Spoiler

 

Source

 

(Also, I hope those links work since I'm at work and can't actually see them. I'm trusting to @WeiryWriter's old post).

EDIT: My phone tells me everything worked out fine

Edited June 27, 2018 by Govir

[Gasper]

There is something very weird going on with most of the Neo-Radiants. Dalinar: creating perpendicularities, visions, and charging Kaladin with stormlight.  Shallan: Being able to enter the cognitive realm with out transportation. Lift: eating things to get stormlight. Renarian: Corrupted spren that can still use surges. I think that the Radiants may be in the process of changing in to a more powerful form of their orders.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Gasper said:

Shallan: Being able to enter the cognitive realm with out transportation.

She does this via soulcasting, and she can't enter physically. 

To an outside observer she'd be standing or sitting in place with a glazed look in her eyes. 

We see Jasnah do this multiple times in tWoK. 

[Gasper]

Oh, I did not know that, Thanks.

[Govir]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

She does this via soulcasting, and she can't enter physically.

Are we sure she can't enter physically? It makes sense, because that seems to be the domain of the Transportation surge. But there's the scene in tWoK when Shallan is trying to prove to Jasnah that Shallan can Soulcast without a Soulcaster and Jasnah has to save her because she went too fully into Shadesmar and without enough Stormlight. My point being, maybe Soulcasters can get themselves *into* Shadesmar but can't get out on their own.

According to the related Epigraph, it seems like Elsecallers (with both Soulcasting and Transportation) were the main points of contact to Shadesmar and the Spren, but that Lightweavers (sharing Soulcasting) and Willshapers (sharing Transportation) *could* be used.

[Calderis]

40 minutes ago, Govir said:

Are we sure she can't enter physically? It makes sense, because that seems to be the domain of the Transportation surge. But there's the scene in tWoK when Shallan is trying to prove to Jasnah that Shallan can Soulcast without a Soulcaster and Jasnah has to save her because she went too fully into Shadesmar and without enough Stormlight. My point being, maybe Soulcasters can get themselves *into* Shadesmar but can't get out on their own.

In that scene Jasnah saves her by pushing her back into her own flame, returning her mind to her body. 

I think that if a lightweaver entered "too fully" and were trapped, the body would be left in a coma. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by Calderis

[Harmonic Convergence]

I have a simpler theory that I haven't seen or heard anywhere.

What if "I am Unity" was the 4th ideal for the Order of Bondsmiths?

Accessing investiture the way he did could simply be an ability of that order, somewhat similar to Jedi Battle Meditation in Star Wars (but with raw power instead of focus and morale). Pretty rough theory, and it's hard to justify it while also considering Odium's words to Taravangian at the end of the book about making deals for Honor (maybe Honor's death has amplified the powers of the Stormfather and therefore Dalinar?).