SzethIsBadAsHell

sibling
{OB} The 3rd so called Sibling

16 posts in this topic

So this is really bothering me .

“There is … a third sibling. They are not with us.
“In hiding?”
No. Slumbering.
“Tell me more.”
No.
“But—”
No! Leave them alone. You hurt them enough.”

Excerpt From
Oathbringer
Brandon Sanderson
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/oathbringer/id1198279804?mt=11
This material may be protected by copyright.

When the Stormfather speaks of his 3rd sibling why does he use the Plural them ! I couldn’t come up with a explanation that made sense. Maybe the spren is similar to the Aimian type 2 that break apart into 1,000 cremlings . 

So then I consider this Cusicesh the Protector spren and I go with all these faces , he could be a them / perhaps 

I’ll go ask a sage :  I get this 

 
#1
 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Does Cusicesh the Protector have anything to do with the third Sibling at Urithiru?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

See, you gave me too much wiggle room there. Because "anything" is a really broad term. So I could say yes, but not in the way you're thinking.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, hmm I have to rethink my theory then.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I'll say probably not in the way you're thinking.

 
 
 
Im totally lost again . This guy is perfect . So my question is does anybody have a theory as to who this 3rd Bondsmith spren is , and why did the Stormfather use “them” in reference ? Is there perhaps a type of spren that are rare and can join together to make a single entity . 
 
  The final thing I have to offer is I think while the Nightwatcher is of Cultivation and the Stormfather is of Honor, I think this 3rd entity is part Cultivation part Honor. 
    Any ideas? 
 
    I’m on the verge of going Brandon Lied to us it Cusicesh , he just didn’t want us to figure it out!!!
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He would just RAFO us.

Considering what Stormfather said sibling is probably dormant like Syl was during Days of Recreance, or Pattern when Shallan was lying to herself. He was probably bonded to the lonly bondsmith during Days of Recreance - as only godspren that seems to have damage from broken oaths. 

There are theories that the Sibling is the spren of Urithuru the fabrial-city. Some belive that he is the 10th Unmade, that wasn't yet unmade.

Pretty sure that he is nothing that was yet seen on screen.

We also know that Cusicesh is one level lower than the godsprens, and that there are probably more sprens on that level.

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The Stormfather used "them" because it's a gender neutral pronoun, and the sibling is presumably gender neutral, as it's not called the brother or the sister. 

Considering The Sibling is slumbering, and Syl's "slumber" lasted hundreds of years, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is a spren that is unknown on modern Roshar, and as such unknown to us. 

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@SzethIsBadAsHell Well, them/they can be used to refer to someone/something that is gender neutral or doesn't have a gender. It doesn't necessarily mean that the Sibling is like a hivemind or something.

As for the identity of the Sibling, it is generally assumed by most people that it is somehow related to Urithiru due to the gemstones in the gemstone archives that talk about the Sibling receding causing or at least being related to the deterioration of Urithiru. The exact nature of this relationship is uncertain; we don't know if the Sibling is the spren of Urithiru, a spren that is bonded to Urithiru, or something else entirely. Many people also think that the Sibling is the spren of stone.

I definitely do not think that Cusicesh is the Sibling. It just doesn't make any sense.

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Well I had no idea you could use They/then to reference something in the Gender neutral . So appreciate that . I mean I thought about the fact that it could be something we have yet to see , I just didn’t think that was Sanderson style . He usually drops a Chekhov gun, foreshadowing , hints etc . 

       I was also aware it was linked to Urithiru , that once it’s Bonded the city and wards will come alive . Another reason I thought it cusicesh , seemed like something that could power the irrigation and plumbing (to lack a better term), of the City so high up in the mountains

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I still think the Sibling could be Cusicesh but it is unlikely.

I also trust to Brandons foreshadowing enough to know that once the Sibling's identity is revealed, I will probably slap myself for not having figured it out sooner.

That said, I still hope Cusicesh is somehiw involved, I am weirdly fascinated considering how little we know if him.

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On 6/25/2018 at 1:55 PM, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Well I had no idea you could use They/then to reference something in the Gender neutral . So appreciate that . I mean I thought about the fact that it could be something we have yet to see , I just didn’t think that was Sanderson style . He usually drops a Chekhov gun, foreshadowing , hints etc . 

It should be noted that using "they" or "their" to refer to a singular person of unspecified gender is an informal usage, reasonably common in speech but very uncommon to see in formal writing.  The issue is that English doesn't have a singular gender-neutral pronoun (historically, the masculine form has been used in such cases).  Still, there are generally better ways to go about keeping gender ambiguous than resorting to the grammatically incorrect they.  For instance, the Stormfather's words could easily have been "No!  Leave the Sibling alone!  You have hurt that spren enough", which has the advantage of being gender-ambiguous without sounding juvenile.  You can also use "it" in a pinch, but that's considered somewhat rude for gendered things.  Probably not any less rude than "they", though, now that I think about it.

Long story short, I'm still somewhat hoping for a swarm-style spren to be the Sibling.  It's the only good way to make the Stormfather's lines grammatically correct, and using "they" as a substitute for gender seems like a good way to hide the swarm-nature from the readers.  Otherwise the lines just come off like something you'd read in bad fanfiction.  I'd like to think that Brandon is capable of better writing than that.

On 6/25/2018 at 5:03 PM, Jace21 said:

I also trust to Brandons foreshadowing enough to know that once the Sibling's identity is revealed, I will probably slap myself for not having figured it out sooner.

This would be totally cool and awesome, but I'm guessing it'll be some spren we've never seen before.  The only candidate I could otherwise think of would be Cusicesh, and apparently that's been nixed, so unless all the Aimians are part of some giant spren or something, I don't see many other options.  I suppose it could end up being one of the moons, but that seems kind of a stretch.

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14 hours ago, galendo said:

This would be totally cool and awesome, but I'm guessing it'll be some spren we've never seen before.  The only candidate I could otherwise think of would be Cusicesh, and apparently that's been nixed, so unless all the Aimians are part of some giant spren or something, I don't see many other options.  I suppose it could end up being one of the moons, but that seems kind of a stretch.

Oh, I don't necessarily think we have necessarily seen the Sibling yet, but I do think that we will have had hints as to their identitity before we do.

 

You are absolutely correct that "they" is unusual in formal writing as a gender-neutral pronoun. My first counter point would be that it is fairly common in speech, as you noted, and the Stormfather is speaking when he says it. A second point is one of language. Here on Earth we don't have any truly gender neutral sapient beings, so English has never needed to talk about them.

 That would make the options "that Spren" which sounds odd and impersonal coming from a sibling, the Stormfather, "it" which has negative conotations and so could be misinderstood, or "he/him" which in modern usage would just be confusing and make the Sibling being male.

I agree that "them" seems odd at first glance but I think it was the best/only choice available.

Edited by Jace21
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"They" as a singular neutral pronoun has actually been used for centuries, the use of "he" as a generic pronoun is actually newer then "they".

Also there are people in real life who use "they" pronouns because they don't identify as exclusively male or female (there are other pronouns that some people use, but those are less familiar to most people).

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My current theory is that the sword Oathbringer is the Sibling. 

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7 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

"They" as a singular neutral pronoun has actually been used for centuries, the use of "he" as a generic pronoun is actually newer then "they".

"Singular “they” is over 600 years old, going back into Middle English. Great writers have used it, including Chaucer, Shakespeare, Swift, Fielding, Austen, Defoe, Byron, Thackeray and Shaw. It appears in the King James Bible of 1611 and in formal prose century after century." 

 

It is good to remember that English has had a back and forth on pronouns since as long as English has been around (I mean, "you" used to be the plural form only and we had "thou" for singular"). Even with that change, English somehow survived =). 

 Brandon's usage of "the sibling" hints that this being is a singular entity. I think The Sibling does not conform to the Alethi gender/sex binary. This may seem a bit "liberal", but remember that the Parshendi (and their ancient spren) have 4 genders. Could the Sibling simply not conform to Ashyn sex and or gender biology? (I am not sure if the Parshendi have 4 sexes or 4 genders). 

 

Edited by teknopathetic
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On June 26, 2018 at 7:22 PM, galendo said:

It should be noted that using "they" or "their" to refer to a singular person of unspecified gender is an informal usage, reasonably common in speech but very uncommon to see in formal writing.  The issue is that English doesn't have a singular gender-neutral pronoun (historically, the masculine form has been used in such cases).  Still, there are generally better ways to go about keeping gender ambiguous than resorting to the grammatically incorrect they.  For instance, the Stormfather's words could easily have been "No!  Leave the Sibling alone!  You have hurt that spren enough", which has the advantage of being gender-ambiguous without sounding juvenile.  You can also use "it" in a pinch, but that's considered somewhat rude for gendered things.  Probably not any less rude than "they", though, now that I think about it.

Long story short, I'm still somewhat hoping for a swarm-style spren to be the Sibling.  It's the only good way to make the Stormfather's lines grammatically correct, and using "they" as a substitute for gender seems like a good way to hide the swarm-nature from the readers.  Otherwise the lines just come off like something you'd read in bad fanfiction.  I'd like to think that Brandon is capable of better writing than that.

This would be totally cool and awesome, but I'm guessing it'll be some spren we've never seen before.  The only candidate I could otherwise think of would be Cusicesh, and apparently that's been nixed, so unless all the Aimians are part of some giant spren or something, I don't see many other options.  I suppose it could end up being one of the moons, but that seems kind of a stretch.

As @teknopathetic put it so eloquently, they/them as gender neutral pronouns is not as huge of a problem as you think it is. English teachers, of course, will probably teach it as grammatically incorrect, but it's so commonly used as gender neutral in speech that I don't see the problem with Brandon using it. 

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With this whole discussion, keep in mind that Syl has mentioned 4 genders of Spren. Maybe they is used because there isn’t an english pronoun for them

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Not sure if it's the Sibling or some other spren being referenced here, but this WoB might be relevant:

wiresegal

In OB, you explained that the Singers have four sexes. I was wondering... Can the Singers have genders other than those four, like humans? Even as simple as just not going with male, female, or malen/femalen. Could a transgender Singer use their ability to shift forms to change their biological reality? And, finally, could a Spren be non-binary, if it wasn't personified in a typical male/female way?

Brandon Sanderson

In the cosmere as a whole, a person's perception of themselves has a lot of power over both their Spiritual and Physical forms. It is possible, with investiture, to change their biology to match Cognitive perceptions--and while this could be easier for some races (like the Singers) it's not outside plausibility for any race.

There are non-binary spren, actually--and you should be meeting one important one quite soon in the books.

source

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On 6/28/2018 at 4:03 PM, teknopathetic said:

(I mean, "you" used to be the plural form only and we had "thou" for singular").

Just taking this a step further. Thou and you are actually the same word and were originally pronounced the same way. We no longer use the "thorn" character þ (which looks a lot more like a y in some typefaces), but it is the English/Latin character for the th sound. When you see "Ye Olde Shoppe" its actually a remnant of the thorn character, not a Y, at the beginning and thus the proper pronunciation is "The Old Shop," not, as is commonly said, "Yee Old Shop."

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Also, if you take the word "thou" and "you" and combine and mix the letters, you can create the word "utuyhoo" which interestingly enough doesn't mean anything.  Like most of these responses to the OP question.

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