Taln's Identity

[Terra of Roshar]

We have WOB that Hoid didn't switch the Blades, but do we have any reason to think he didn't switch the person? Maybe Hoid found a delusional Jezrien and switched him for Taln? Though why he would do this is something of a mystery... I do like the theory that the person in the monastery is Jezrien if it isn't Taln, though.

[Argent]

It's possible, I suppose, but he would have to somehow imprint Taln's memories on him as well, and that sounds difficult.

[Terra of Roshar]

Not necessarily. I mean, he talks about the jobs of the various Heralds, which is something any of them would know, and he has a lot of internal monologue about being tortured in Damnation, but that's again something all of the Heralds have experienced, albeit not as recently as Taln. The whole "needing to implant memories" thing is really only a problem if fake-Taln isn't a Herald themself, which is part of why I like the idea of it being Jezrien.

[Argent]

He introduces himself, in all three situations, as Talenel'Elin, Stonesinew. If he is not him, that has to be external. 

[Moogle]

Alright, I do believe I've convinced myself that the man is not Taln, or else didn't have an Honorblade.

 

 

What would these men say if they knew that the man who emptied their chamber pot was a Shardbearer and a Surgebinder? A Windrunner, like the Radiants of old? The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale—almost glowing—sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon.

 

This effect cannot just be constrained to Szeth. It would be random, unsystematic. All Honorblades should change the eye color of the person who wields them. The Stonewards that Dalinar sees in TWOK have "pale tan eyes" (obviously for their topaz gem), so obviously it works for them. Taln, if he has his Honorblade out, should have pale tan/amber eyes. This effect seems hardcoded into the Blades themselves, as Kaladin's eyes changes when he gets his. (Shallan and Jasnah can be explained as having their eyes already be light and thus be immune to further changes, or else their Order's eye color doesn't change. Or perhaps Shallan can be explained as having 'cured' her eyes to what she thought they should be via Stormlight when she refused to accept she was a Radiant.)

 

So, when this happens...

 

The figure ignored the question. He stepped forward, dragging his Shardblade, as if it weighed a great deal. It cut the rock behind him, leaving a tiny groove in the stone. The figure walked unsteadily, and nearly tripped. He steadied himself against the gate door, and a lock of hair moved from the side of his face, exposing his eyes. Dark brown eyes, like a man of the lower class. Those eyes were wild, dazed.

 

We should have been suspicious. If his Honorblade had been out, his eye color should have changed. Therefore, he wasn't the one wielding the Honorblade. Taln, giving up, might have just found a madman and given it to him and told him what to say. Taln's eyes glow amber while it's out, and the madman's do not. The Heralds have abilities beyond their Honorblades; perhaps supernatural convincing is one of them. Once the madman did his job, Taln dismissed his Honorblade and continued on, or something like that.

 

When he says his name, he pauses.

 

The man paused. He raised a hand to his head, wavering. “Who am I? I… I am Talenel’Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of the Almighty. The Desolation has come. Oh, God… it has come. And I have failed.”

 

I am willing to believe there is something up when looking over all the evidence. I don't believe Brandon was trolling anymore.

[Argent]

Except the more natural intuitive interpretation of Szeth's excerpt is to assume that it's his Blade and his Blade alone that turns his eyes light - it's a "unique effect of his particular weapon." It could mean "unique effect of the Honorblades," but it's not certain. Maybe the Honorblades turn the eye color of whomever wields them the same color as that particular Honorblade's Herald's eye color? So if Szeth took Taln's weapon (assuming he is Taln and the weapon is his Honorblade), his eyes would turn dark brown.

 

This seems equally likely to me, if not more so.

[Moogle]

Except the more natural intuitive interpretation of Szeth's excerpt is to assume that it's his Blade and his Blade alone that turns his eyes light - it's a "unique effect of his particular weapon."

 

Szeth is not very knowledgeable. He thinks he's a Windrunner. Only Truthless seem to get the Honorblades (perhaps the Stone Shamans as well?), so it's unlikely he'd know what the other Honorblades do. I believe the natural interpretation is that all Honorblades change eye color. Kalak similarly refers to the Honorblades as 'unique':

 

These Blades were weapons of power beyond even Shardblades. These were unique. Precious.

 

Maybe the Honorblades turn the eye color of whomever wields them the same color as that particular Honorblade's Herald's eye color? So if Szeth took Taln's weapon (assuming he is Taln and the weapon is his Honorblade), his eyes would turn dark brown.

 

This seems equally likely to me, if not more so.

 

How does this seem equally likely? It seems like you're ignoring that there's a consistent system underlying all the magic in the Cosmere. Using a Shard or Honorblade changes your sDNA thanks to the bond being formed. This should have physical effects, much along the lines of Hemalurgic spikes.

 

We've previously seen the effects of the bond on Stonewards (Taln) and Windrunners (Jezrien) in Dalinar's visions - their eyes become pale tan (topaz) and pale blue (sapphire). Jasnah describes Szeth's eyes as "pale blue"... the exact same way Teft describes Kaladin's. The spren based themselves off of the Honorblades. We should expect what happens to the Radiants should happen to the Heralds, because they're both based on the same underlying system (with some tweaks here and there obviously). Stonewards get tan eyes, therefore Taln should get tan eyes.

 

We can't be certain, but I feel quite strongly that this is the best explanation of things we have for the moment. It would be odd if the Honorblades acted wildly differently when they're based on the same physics. I see patterns: ten gem types, ten eye colors to be gotten from the Honorblades.

 

How would you explain the classical Vorin associations of the Heralds with gem types if not for eyecolor? Kalak seems to have taught people to work metal, so he gets to be associated with Foil. My thought is that his eyes were purple, so he was associated with amethyst, much as Jezrien's blue eyes from his Honorblade would make him associated with Sapphire. If Taln has dark brown eyes, I'm not sure where you'd get the topaz association from.

[Argent]

Okay, I won't argue against you. I am not convinced, but that's because I believe that both Taln and his Honorblade showed up before the gates of Kholinar, and it was only after that that the shenanigans started. I can't argue against your points though, and my head is killing me right now, so I'll drop it. 

[Moogle]

Okay, I won't argue against you. I am not convinced, but that's because I believe that both Taln and his Honorblade showed up before the gates of Kholinar, and it was only after that that the shenanigans started. I can't argue against your points though, and my head is killing me right now, so I'll drop it. 

 

That's fair. It's not terribly convincing as far as arguments go anyways. I'm just going insane over the eye color changes and that'sthe best theory I've got. It says we never saw Taln, so I'm sticking with that for the moment.

 

Plus, there's Amaram's comments about his dark eyes being a disguise. Rereading that, it does seem like he's unreasonably convinced himself that the person he's seeing is Taln. There's a lot of little things that don't add up when you look at them with a suspicious attitude.

[corwin01]

I agree with Moogle here. Even discounting Cosmere magic mechanics and looking solely at Roshar, we see that Szeth's Honorblade changes eye color, Shardblades change eye color, and Sprenblades change eye color. The odds of the other Honorblades (or even just Taln's not showing this behavior when we've seen plenty of examples of this happening already.

Actually, a thought just occured to me. What if, like a Returned can suppress their physical appearance change, so too can Heralds/Radiants?

[trendkill]

The spren based themselves off of the Honorblades. We should expect what happens to the Radiants should happen to the Heralds, because they're both based on the same underlying system (with some tweaks here and there obviously). Stonewards get tan eyes, therefore Taln should get tan eyes.

 

The real thing of it is that we just don't know enough about the Heralds to know how the Honorblades would affect them, if they would at all.  Similarly, we don't know enough about the Honorblades to know how they're different than the Shard/sprenblades.  We do know that they are different, though.  Since we know that they're different in some way, I don't think we can really make too many conclusions about what they do or how they affect people by only looking at Shard/sprenblades.

[Moogle]

The real thing of it is that we just don't know enough about the Heralds to know how the Honorblades would affect them, if they would at all.  Similarly, we don't know enough about the Honorblades to know how they're different than the Shard/sprenblades.  We do know that they are different, though.  Since we know that they're different in some way, I don't think we can really make too many conclusions about what they do or how they affect people by only looking at Shard/sprenblades.

 

We can't be certain, but that's no reason to say we can't make very good guesses. For example, there's no reason to assume that Honorblades would work differently for Heralds than they would for regular people (except perhaps for their powers becoming stronger for more honorable people or something like that). Nightblood is not going to act differently when Szeth uses him compared to Vasher, and Vasher is essentially a Nalthian Herald and Nightblood is essentially a Nalthian Honorblade.

 

There's no real compelling reason not to think Honorblades won't change eyecolor except for "Taln's" (who Brandon has hinted very heavily at not being who he claims to be) dark eyes. Szeth's Honorblade changes his, so in the absence of evidence otherwise I think it's very reasonable to assume all the Honorblades change eye color, even for the Heralds. 

 

Regular Shardblades do, Szeth's Honorblade did... it just seems like a trait of Shardblades in general. Just saying "but he's a Herald!" does not seem to me to be very strong evidence. Heralds are still regular people, just with a ton of Investiture which changed them to have some extra abilities, like a Returned. I expect them all to have one heart, two lungs, two legs, and two arms. I expect their eye color to change when they bond a Shardblade.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Moogle

[trendkill]

I'm not really arguing for or against the eye-changing aspect.  I just don't think that we have enough info to do more than guess at this point.  Maybe someone can ask at a signing in the near future?  "Do the Heralds' eyes change with an Honorblade?" or something like that.  Another good question to ask would be "Do the Honorblades give the Heralds their power or do the Heralds give the Honorblades their power?"  Probably a RAFO, but, with absolutely no evidence to back me up, I have a feeling in my gut that it's the latter.

[Aleksiel]

 

How would you explain the classical Vorin associations of the Heralds with gem types if not for eyecolor? 

 

By this logic Edgedancers have either no color (diamond) or let's say white, which is also kind of strange, but acceptable to me. Do you think two Heralds have red eyes? Chana's gem is Ruby and garnet is Ash's. I don't imagine two red eyed Orders I don't think we can tie eyecolor and Orders yet. 

[Moogle]

By this logic Edgedancers have either no color (diamond) or let's say white, which is also kind of strange, but acceptable to me. Do you think two Heralds have red eyes? Chana's gem is Ruby and garnet is Ash's. I don't imagine two red eyed Orders I don't think we can tie eyecolor and Orders yet. 

 

I think the Edgedancers would have very curious sparkly/silvery/diamond eyes as opposed to white eyes.

 

I do think that the two Heralds would have red eyes, though given the other Surgebinders have 'pale' eyes, I expect Shallash to have pink eyes with her Honorblade out, making her a wonderful Herald of Beauty (though for some reason, she has Surgebinding-violet eyes at the moment, so I'm not even going to touch that in this thread) and for Chana to have the more 'red' eyes. This amuses me, and explains the Dustbringers being touchy about their association with Voidbringers: they both have red eyes. Hilarious.

 

I think we can tie eyecolor for Windrunners and Stonewards, and I think it would be odd if only two of the Orders had eyes matching the color of their gemstone. Jasnah (violet instead of zircon eyes) and Shallan (green instead of garnet eyes) are points against the theory, but can be explained by them already having colored eyes, or else using Stormlight to revert the changes to what they feel they 'should' have (Shallan refused to believe she was a Radiant...). Kaladin accepts he's a Radiant, so he gets the eyes. Jasnah rejects the label, so the Stormlight heals her eyes back to non-zircon? Something like that? I think the theory makes perfect sense, despite evidence against.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Moogle

[taliefer]

a good question might be do we have enough evidence to reasonably conclude the Taln we see in the book is NOT the Taln that was banished to damnation upon his last death?

 

the physical descriptions in each book seem to be consistent. the no accent/northern accent can be explained away from view points, or at least be put into serious question. the only surefire difference related is in the blade that is assumed to be Taln's in each book. those are obviously different blades.

 

if it wasnt for brandons quote, im not sure we'd even suspect this. i havent followed all his signings/question and answers for every book, but does he have a history of being deliberately misleading?

[Aleksiel]

I think the Edgedancers would have very curious sparkly/silvery/diamond eyes as opposed to white eyes.

 

I do think that the two Heralds would have red eyes, though given the other Surgebinders have 'pale' eyes, I expect Shallash to have pink eyes with her Honorblade out, making her a wonderful Herald of Beauty.......

 

It makes sense that way, but there are pink gems after all, so why chose garnet for Ash then? Although Lightweavers make no oaths and that's different enough to convince me other thing with their Order might be different as well.

 

Sorry for derailing the topic. On topic: I am convinced the lack of Taln's icon at the beginning of his interlude means something's not quite the way it seems. WoK chapter had Hoid and Taln and WoR has Hoid and Chana, so something happened between those events for sure. 

 

Edit: turns out there is pink garnet,

Edited March 21, 2014 by Aleksiel

[junior]

We should have been suspicious. If his Honorblade had been out, his eye color should have changed. Therefore, he wasn't the one wielding the Honorblade. Taln, giving up, might have just found a madman and given it to him and told him what to say. Taln's eyes glow amber while it's out, and the madman's do not. The Heralds have abilities beyond their Honorblades; perhaps supernatural convincing is one of them. Once the madman did his job, Taln dismissed his Honorblade and continued on, or something like that.

 

 

Whoever he is, he's not just a random madman.  Shallan creates an illusion in his presence, and he *immediately* identifies it as such and recognizes what she is.  He even identifies the Herald associated with her order.  *Very* few people in Roshar should be able to do that, and a random madman is not going to be one of those people.

 

[Argent]

the no accent/northern accent can be explained away from view points

 

I really don't see how it can. Shallan, Hoid, and the guards from Kholinar understand him perfect as he speaks "perfect Alethi." Dalinar and Elhokar can barely catch a word here and there and attribute it to what they think is Northern accent. I'd be okay if it was just the accent, but they literally have no idea what he is saying.

[Moogle]

It makes sense that way, but there are pink gems after all, so why chose garnet for Ash then? Although Lightweavers make no oaths and that's different enough to convince me other thing with their Order might be different as well.

 

Well, I'd argue it's still a reddish-orange garnet, it's just "pale", so it will look more pink than red. And, as you say, there are pink garnets.

[Aleksiel]

Well, I'd argue it's still a reddish-orange garnet, it's just "pale", so it will look more pink than red. And, as you say, there are pink garnets.

 

It makes perfect sense, I just thought garnet can only be deep dark red until I googled 'pink garnet'.

 

Perhaps if someone took Taln's Honorblade before he even made an appearance during the end of WoK, his eyes darkened? Though I don't think in Dalinar's vision of the Recreance a change of the KR's eyes happened. The easiest explanations is that this is Taln only someone took his Blade while he was still dizzy and gave him a Shardblade? Ok, this doesn't make much sense, why give him a sword at all? I'm just shooting in the dark here.

[taliefer]

I really don't see how it can. Shallan, Hoid, and the guards from Kholinar understand him perfect as he speaks "perfect Alethi." Dalinar and Elhokar can barely catch a word here and there and attribute it to what they think is Northern accent. I'd be okay if it was just the accent, but they literally have no idea what he is saying.

 

i got the impression they could only make out some of it due to him mumbling. its stated in his interlude that sometimes he mummbles, the rest of the time he screams and elohkar tells him to speak up at one point.

[Douglas7886]

The "not really Taln" could be that he came back insane because Tanavast/Honor is no longer around to protect the minds of the Heralds when they return from Damnation.

[Maximus]

I think it is Taln:

 

1. He held out for 4500 years of torture. We don't know exactly how long it was between previous desolations, but it must have been much less. Mankind hadn't progressed beyond stone age technology yet. Taln had the tendency to pick impossible fights and win, often dying in the process(Prelude). He was the herald of war, probably physically tougher than the others and able to tolerate more pain. He may have decided to hold out "forever" and did so until his mind was completely gone.

 

2. His symptoms seem consistent with someone who cracked under prolonged torture. As I understand it(not being an expert) one of the common ways people respond to torture/abuse is to compartmentalize, which can lead to multiple personalities. Now in this case each of the personalities have the same name, but remember that this is a guy who has lived multiple lives. This would explain the different accents.

 

3. He seems most lucid when he sees something that grounds him. Seeing a knight radiant infusing stormlight, seeing lightweaving, spotting an incoming threat-- again I am not an expert on mental disorders, but it seems plausible that his responses to these are consistent with the hypothesis.

[RShara]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that his madness means he's not Taln.  Only that his accent might be a hint that he's not Taln, because Elhokar and Dalinar can't understand him, while Shallan, and the guards at the gate can.

 

It could be Temporal Confusion as I mentioned; he's getting his times and regions mixed up.  Or it could be a clue for something more.