FirstSelector Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 The "picking up languages" part is actually not all that hard to understand - there must be some way in which people can "learn" a langauge through Cognitive Realm trickery. This is practically a requirement for the Heralds, since there is no guarentee that when they come back next the languages the were speaking even continue to exist. Additionally, Hoid never appears to have trouble speaking the local languages, and we know from Vasher that the cosmere does not speak one uniform language. As for "the Gift," my interpretation is that this references some magic part of the Oathpact that makes sure that when the Heralds return, they are cognizant enough to explain what is going on and hopefully find someone who can take care of them. Or, it could reference some Gift to mankind, in the form of the Heralds and their leadership (and perhaps their ability to understand the language). Lastly, though this is much more tenuous, the symbols associated with each Order were supposedly stylized versions of the associated Herald's sword. A "long, straight spike" would match the symbol for Stonewards nicely. I have yet to come up with a solid reason why Taln might not be the Herald Talenel. Apart from Brandon's trickery and his statements that the Herals feature prominently in the back five books (recall at one point two viewpoint characters are Taln and another Herald), I am not convinced that there are good reasons to believe that Taln is anyone except who he claims. My closing thought is that perhaps it is Taln, but he is no longer a Herald. Unfortunately, this doesn't explain the Gift or his apparent superhuman reflexes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trendkill Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 @RShara, that's what I was getting at. Probably baseless speculation on my part, but the way Argent worded that brought it to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 When I was reading the interlude, I assumed the 'Gift' was his Honorblade. When he says Not his. Never his. Now his. my assumption was that he was referring to how the Shardblade is not his Honorblade. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistLord Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 It would make sense it was Taln - as he was the only one left behind and therefore would be tortured in Damnation for 4500 years. That would drive most mad. Despite this, he tries to prepare humanity for the next desolation, which not only shows strength of his honour and character, but would be something just like what the Heralds of Honour would do (in reversal of the other Heralds, who seem to have strayed from the path of Honour) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 What order/powers is Chana theoretically the head of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 What order/powers is Chana theoretically the head of? Dustbringers, I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesomeness Summoned Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 The Releasers (dustbringers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 So Awesomeness and Regrowth. Hmmm that's unhelpful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 So Awesomeness and Regrowth. Hmmm that's unhelpful! Well, Awesomeness and 'Division', actually. Though I'm not sure where this was going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Sorry I get Dustbringers and Edgedancers confused a lot. I'm trying to figure out why Chana's portait is at the beginning of Taln's chapter and whether it has anything to do with these discrepancies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Sorry I get Dustbringers and Edgedancers confused a lot. I'm trying to figure out why Chana's portait is at the beginning of Taln's chapter and whether it has anything to do with these discrepancies. Plausibly, you could see Taln as Brave/Obedient for going back to Damnation when no other Herald did (not that he had a choice) and for staying there for 4.5 thousand years being tortured. Or you could see the masked man as implying there's someone disguised, and they are being Brave/Obedient in assuming Taln's role. I'm doing notes as I reread, and trying to figure out the relation of the Herald icons to the chapter is fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Pretty sure the masked man just indicates Hoid's presence in the chapter. But we may be onto something with the other portrait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 But Taln's portrait on Taln's chapter would make so much more sense....if it's Taln, of course... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 I think you're all making it more complicated than it has to be. Talk isn't a madman. He's coming out of a 4500 year coma. He has a "recording" from the many times he's done this before, but the rest of his thoughts are slow in returning. Think of someone shaking you awake waking at 4am; you'd react in some irrational or automatic way, then slowly perceive your surroundings before being able to interact with the world. A 4500 year nap/nightmare takes a while to wake up from. His protective reactions to threats are part of his Cognitive definition as a Herald. I'm thinking you all will be disappointed when you find out there is no conspiracy and Talk will simply become more like Talk as time passes. Of course, we don't know where his sword is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesomeness Summoned Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 I'm thinking you all will be disappointed when you find out there is no conspiracy and Talk will simply become more like Talk as time passes. Of course, we don't know where his sword is. Actually, most of us were pretty convinced he was Taln until Brandon started hinting that he might not be who we think he is anytime someone asks about Taln. He might just be trying to one up Peter's trolling but the speculation does have some WoB backing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 In an odd way, if Dalinar dies before we get to see his flashback sequences it would make me even more suspicious of Taln, because Dalinar is the other thing Brandon was really coy about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryshadium Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Dalinar is Taln, Taln is Dalinar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eejit Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 "Go," he said raggedly, speaking perfect Alethi, no hint of an accent. "Run! Raise the call! Give the warning!" “The time of the Return, the Desolation, is near at hand. We must prepare. You will have forgotten much, following the destruction of the times past.” “I can make out some of it, Elhokar. It’s Alethi. Northern accent. Not what I’d have expected from one with such dark skin.” Everyone has an accent. Therefore saying he had no trace of an accent (especially in the context of Taln not looking Alethi) would mean no trace of any foreign accent, only an Alethi one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veil Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) The ummm what-do-you-call-'ems....pictures at the beginning of the chapter, that look like stone reliefs? Neither of them are Taln, one is Chach, and the masked man usually stands for Hoid, right? Or a worldhopper? Edit: Also I am Talenel’Elin, Herald of War.” Voice. He spoke it. He didn’t think it. The words came, like they always came. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Okay, now this is kind of out there for a theory, but I think we've already reached that threshold here in this thread. So. "The words came" almost makes it sound like someone is talking through "Taln." Is it possible that Taln sent out avatars thoughout Roshar to spread the word about the Desolation? I mean, one man trying to warn a whole planet is kind of crazy. TEN people trying to warn a planet is crazy (though slightly less so, especially with two people who can teleport and two who can fly.) I don't know how he did it. Possession of actual humans? Tangible illusions? Something along the lines of a Lifeless that can carry out simple commands and has superhuman reflexes but no real intelligence? (Maybe a false parallel, but the occasional dark looks and moments of near lucidity that we see in "Taln" remind me of how Vivenna kept seeing near-human emotion in Clod.) In any case, it would explain why Brandon is being so coy about "is this really Taln?" It is, but it isn't. Or rather, it's not Taln, but it's not anyone else, either. And would make the disappearance/replacement of the Honorblade much easier. Taln still has his, and Hoid or someone found/won/bought a Blade and left it with the Taln-clone. Wild speculation, yes, but I don't buy another Herald posing as/believing he is Taln. (Not least of all because that doesn't explain how Dalinar got a hold of an ordinary Shardblade.) And I do think "Taln" has too much knowledge to not be a Herald. So either Brandon's trolling us, or "Taln" is Taln, but not technically. Edited March 21, 2014 by Veil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Isn't it strange that the only male Herald Taln doesn't mention is Nalan and the only female Herald he talks about is Vedel? I'm not sure where I'm going with this, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humph Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 I'm of the opinion that it is Mraize who is actually Talanel. It was he, and not Hoid, who popped up out of the Horneater lake (his white hair vs.Hoid's black hair). This could explain why the lake is death to anyone except its guardians -- it contains the portal to Herald Hell. This could also place the Horneaters (as a people) as possibly guardians/squires to the Heralds, which could be a foundation for explaining Rock's ability to see and interact with spren. Mraize also shows evidence of great torture with his broken fingers. Despite having a babsk, it seems abundantly clear that Mraize is not subservient to anyone. He gives the impression of running the show of the Ghostbloods. His existence as a Herald would account for his pre-eminence among them. Mraize's leadership role vis-a-vis his relationship to Iyatil is somewhat problematic, but could be explained by postulating that perhaps she also is a Herald. Shallan is on multiple occasions is surprised by Iyatil's ability to sneak up on her -- could Iyatil have access to Lightweaving or Transportation as a result of being a Herald? Mraize also seems to evidence familiarity with the layout of Urithiru, at least enough where he can get ahead of exploration parties and set up an "ambush" for meeting Shallan. This could be explained by the fact that he's been there before. Mraize/Ghostbloods seem also to have greater/deeper knowledge of what is actually happening than Taravangian does. This again could be explained by him "having been there and done that" many times before. I think it is clear that the Madman from Kholinar is also a Herald, on account of his super-fast reflexes and his reflexive impulse to protect those around him (e.g. incident of Amaram with the dart). I would guess that he is Jezrien who perhaps has snapped with his shame at walking away from his obligation as Herald before, who now realizes that a new Desolation is coming, and has transferred his identity to Taln, the one Herald who was faithful. Having abandoned his Heraldblade long ago, he has since obtained a Shardblade. Another (more deliciously speculative) scenario is that the monster of Tukar long ago captured the drunk Jezrien off the streets and has been torturing him for a few years now and has thoroughly broken him and pounded into his addled brain that he is now Taln; then giving him a shardblade he has loosed him on the world --- eerily similar to the way Szeth was loosed upon the world by the Stone Shamans. This would shed a new light on why Hoid calls him "confused". It would also explain why the Herald has only a Shardblade. Some questions that would then arise: Why has Jasnah assasinated some of the Ghostbloods? Does she know of their relation to Talanel? Who founded the Ghostbloods? How long ago? What is the purpose of the Ghostbloods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 I'm of the opinion that it is Mraize who is actually Talanel. It was he, and not Hoid, who popped up out of the Horneater lake (his white hair vs.Hoid's black hair). .... This would shed a new light on why Hoid calls him "confused". It would also explain why the Herald has only a Shardblade. Hoid does have white hair, he just dyes it. Also, the Blade that ends up in Dalinar's camp is different from the one Taln originally had in Kholinar, so someone swapped them and it's widely believed it was Hoid who did it as he was there and during the trip. If Mraize is more than a worldhopper, a Herald as you suggest, he'd be one of those who betrayed the Oathpact, because he has been around for too long to be the real Talenelat' Elin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humph Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Hoid does have white hair, he just dyes it. A possibility, yes. Of the top of my head, though, I can't recall any text that says Hoid had white hair; I'll have to hunt through the books tonight after work. If Mraize is more than a worldhopper, a Herald as you suggest, he'd be one of those who betrayed the Oathpact, because he has been around for too long to be the real Talenelat' Elin. How do we know how long Mraize has been around this time? We can't assume that the objects in the cave were necessarily collected by Mraize himself. If Mraize were the one to arise out of the Horneater pool, that would put his return at least a few years ago, while Rock was still gallivanting around his village. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Hood didn't swap the Blades, we have WoB on this. And on the accents, they HAVE to change - Elhokar and Dalinar can barely understand him, and they presumably have the same accent as the guards from Kholinar. This too would work with my time-lost mind theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 A possibility, yes. Of the top of my head, though, I can't recall any text that says Hoid had white hair; I'll have to hunt through the books tonight after work. It's not a 100% certain I admit, but it's widely accepted Hoid is the one the strangers in Ishik's interlude in WoK were looking for: No foreigner like this one you mention—with his white hair, clever tongue, and arrowlike face—has been seen.” “He dyes his hair sometimes,” Another thing is Sigzil's reaction to Rock's story who seems to recognize the description. Rock himself hasn't met Wit yet, so it's an open discussion. Even if it was Mraize in the Horneater's lake, I don't see it as supporting Mraize=Herald theory, but I suppose it can work either way depending on what you think about the said pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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