fused [OB] Let’s discuss. How the Fused use Voidlight

[Bigmikey357]

1 hour ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Well That to me is Unbalanced . The Fused can just get Voidlight when they want it, can fly around all day and feet never has to touch the ground . While the KR have to carry pouches of gemstones and better not run out . Unless a Bondsmith is in the vicinity and can supercharge the KR , he is fighting from a disadvantage 

Even with the inherent disadvantages, Stormlight Surgebinders still have some advantages. First, the Fused are only imparted with one Surge instead of 2. That means every KR is a Compounder once they master both of their surges. Second, they get more bang for their buck. Stormlight is a higher octane Investiture fuel. Kaladin can fly faster and is more maneuverable when Invested than the Fused for instance. The Fused will win a marathon but they cannot possibly beat a KR in a sprint. Third, variable weaponry. A KR can never be truly disarmed because they fight beside their weapons. Those weapons can be anything metal, can incapacitate or destroy an enemy with a swing, can warn its welder of an unseen danger, and are unbreakable by any means the Fused would have available. Right now the Radients are at a disadvantage because they lack numbers. They will always have something of a disadvantage because due to the Everstorm any enemy they slay comes back 9 days later. But as the Radients build their numbers back to pre-Recreance strength the disadvantages they face become less and less pronounced.

[+Trellium]

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

First, the Fused are only imparted with one Surge instead of 2. That means every KR is a Compounder once they master both of their surges. 

Not to be too picky with terminology but that is not Compounding, which refers to the hack of fueling your feruchemical power using your allomantic ability by burning your own stores as a new metal and allowing Preservation / Harmony to fuel the feruchemical effect in an end-positive manner.  

You probably mean to suggest that Knights Radiant enjoy Resonances as a result of their use of two surges. For example, the Windrunners have additional / stronger squires, beyond simply having access to both Gravitation and Adhesion Surges. 

Also, a Full, 5 Oath Knight Radiant has mastery of two surges, a resonance, a living / shifting shardblade, shardplate and possibly squires. That seems pretty fair against an enemy with unlimited use of a single surge.

The real question to me is exactly how effective is voidlight healing, and how much healing is doable for a given fused using the current power system?

 

[Bigmikey357]

You're right. Words are important. I meant resonance. 

I purposely did not factor in a Full 5 Radient because I'm pretty sure there won't be many of them, that there weren't many of them even before the Recreance. While a full 5 Radient would be super powerful vs Fused, their extremely limited numbers makes their use in battle of a limited utility. Fortunately you don't need to be at full 5 to get Shardplate.

As far as healing with Voidlight, I'm not so sure that the Fused would even bother. They don't seem to care what happens to the bodies they inhabit and defeat in battle doesn't mean death for them, not permanently. 

Spoiler

Of course, now that Odium can give humans Voidlight healing might become much more important. 

 

[ScavellTane]

If the ShardHolders can excess investiture by 'bonding' the Shards, shouldn't a Singer or a Human with a spren (micro-shard) bond be able to do the same? It's just a difference in magnitude is it not? Why do they need an external source? Especially for the Ancient Singer whose bond was pre-Shattering.

 

Dalinar + Mass Spiritual Adhesion + Stormlight Transfer = Sustained Light Regen. (Ba-Ado-Mishram??)

Edited August 4, 2018 by ScavellTane

[Jace21]

I think the void light comes from  their direct connection to Odium/BAM.

 

That said I belueve they are definitely limited, but I think it is by quantity. I think they can only hold as much Voidlight as can fit in their Gemheart. Once used, that investiture is relenished.

 

It explain the strangeness with their surges too. We are repeatedly told that while the flying fused are highly skilled and have the same top speed, they accelerate slower than Kal/Szeth.

This makes sense if you give them a small, but replenishing amount of Voidlight. Due to the smaller amount they can't pile as many lashings on top of each other like a Radian can. But once their Voidlight replenishes they can juat keep adding more, and reach the same speed.

[+Oltux72]

On 8/4/2018 at 8:51 AM, ScavellTane said:

If the ShardHolders can excess investiture by 'bonding' the Shards, shouldn't a Singer or a Human with a spren (micro-shard) bond be able to do the same?

To an extent they can. A KR can summon his blade without Stormlight.

[bxcnch]

Okay, I hope some of this makes sense, because I have been typing this for at least half an hour:

I personally believe that the only real limit the Fused have in accessing Odium's voidlight is their own passion. After all there must be some reason for why the Fused value particularly passionate people so much. The other shards that we have seen so far seemingly had limitations in when and to whom they could talk. Ruin needed hemalurgical spikes to communicate, Preservation couldn't really communicate at all etc. Odium has one thing in common with them: he cannot fully influence the world. Ruin was imprisoned, Leras was dying, Odium is on another planet. - each of them is limited in his power and each of them seems to have problems appearing in the world. For example, he only really appeared to Venli and Dalinar, both of which have a history with him. Meanwhile, Navani couldn't see him in Thaylenah. I assume that he also cannot just grant power to whomever he wants but needs some sort of connection. That connection is passion.

We have seen how to access Odium's power in two cases: Moash and Dalinar. Dalinar first: He was chosen by Odium explicitly because of his passionate and strongly emotional "blackthorn" persona. Otherwise there isn't really anything TOO useful about Dalinar - he is old, not in as good a shape as e.g. Adolin or Kaladin; he is not quite as scheming as Sadeas, Jasnah or Taravangian; he is not as influential as the Azish Emperor or Aesudan. I am sure, if these were the criteria that are important, Odium would have chosen someone else. Probably Gavilar. Or maybe one of the Shin, so he could get the honorblades. But no. Instead Odium decided that Dalinar was the most suitable Champion, apparently based on Dalinar's past as a blood-thirsty, raging berserker. What seems to be important is the amount of emotion or passion of his lackeys. 

The second step was giving up one's responsibility. That's the moment when Dalinar completed his third oath. By giving up the responsibility for his actions, Dalinar would assume the role of the poor victim, controlled by an outward force, shifting his blame and would basically deny the fact that his actions have personal consequences for him. If Dalinar can always say "Odium did it", "someone else made me do it", "I did what I had to do" etc, there would be no consequences and no real incentive for him to act honorable. In a certain way doing so would possibly also break his first oath, as Dalinar would stop striving for ideals, therefore denying the existence of any personal "Destination" and therefore there also wouldn't be a "Journey" (that's probably VERY far-fetched though). Anyway, what can be said for certain is, that denying responsibility is an important step in joining Odium. 

So these are the two steps I think are necessary to gain a real strong connection to Odium. Passion and Denial of responsibility. Amaram had it too. He saw a shard-blade, said: "I want it", killed a few Darkeyes and then said "I did what I had to do." He also seems to have been a rather passionate man, seeing as he almost attacked Jasnah over a minor insult. With Moash, it's the same. He is passionate, as the Fused have stated again and again. Moash also denies responsibility for his actions. Killing Elhokar is "the right thing to do", his own character flaws are "the product of society". With Moash, we also see the result of these two steps: emptiness. Moash in the end isn't very passionate anymore, he's empty inside, because Odium is "feeding on his emotions." Now why would the evil omnipotent god of rage need a simple human's wrath? Ruin didn't feed on corruption, Preservation didn't feed on stagnation, Cultivation doesn't feed on plants. I think Odium's feeding on emotions is a result of a connection between Odium and a human/singer being. Sure, Moash so far doesn't have voidlight and with Dalinar and Amaram we will hopefully never know. But what we do know is that the people at the end of this process feel empty - and we are currently discussing voidbinding . I really don't know where the "void" that Odium is always associated with is coming from if not here.

While I am not certain whether or not Dalinar and Moah will/would get Voidlight, I am almost certain that a connection to Odium like the Fused possess works like I described. A person denies responsibility, amasses a lot of rage, then connects with Odium and gets voidlight as long as they can feed him their rage/passion. I don't really have anything to support this but I think it explains why Odium needs to "eat" passion and why it's called voidlight.  

Edited July 10, 2019 by bxcnch

[+Oltux72]

14 hours ago, bxcnch said:

We have seen how to access Odium's power in two cases: Moash and Dalinar. Dalinar first: He was chosen by Odium explicitly because of his passionate and strongly emotional "blackthorn" persona.

Maybe. Maybe not. There are very good practical reasons to choose Dalinar

1. Given his position in the succession and his behavior, there was a very good chance getting Dalinar would also give you Alethkar
2. Dalinar is the only Bondsmith. The Stormfather had already sent visions. His criteria could be deduced, plus Odium has futuresight. And getting the sole bondsmith, who can speak for Honor's side, would be the jackpot

14 hours ago, bxcnch said:

Otherwise there isn't really anything TOO useful about Dalinar - he is old, not in as good a shape as e.g. Adolin or Kaladin; he is not quite as scheming as Sadeas, Jasnah or Taravangian; he is not as influential as the Azish Emperor or Aesudan.

He has a reputation like no other living Rosharan.

14 hours ago, bxcnch said:

I am sure, if these were the criteria that are important, Odium would have chosen someone else. Probably Gavilar.

For all we know he had chosen Gavilar.

[Pathfinder]

Just a point of clarity. The fused do not have unlimited voidlight. It is that they hold it perfectly, so it lasts a very long time, but they still do run out and need to get more. WoB below:

 

Questioner

Is the reason that the Fused have access to unlimited voidlight is because Odium's alive, and the Radiants have that access that limited access to Stormlight because Honor is dead?

Brandon Sanderson

Not exactly... They do not have access to unlimited voidlight, how about that.

Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018)

 

 

Questioner

The Fused that wield, like--their Lashings can be a lot faster than Kaladin's are. Is it because it's based on a different planet than the Radiants?

Brandon Sanderson

Kaladin can go faster, but they are more-- they are faster over a large span. What's going on with the Fused is they have-- The way their Investiture works, it doesn't leak and they are able to use it for much longer periods of time. But they don't have access to the number of times that Kaladin can Lash himself directions and things like this, and the speed with which he can pick up speed. So in the short Kaladin is favored, in the long they're favored.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

[Mage of Lirigon]

Does this perhaps mean that Fused and by extension Parshendi, have perfect gemstones as gemhearts?

[Karger]

On 7/10/2019 at 0:43 PM, bxcnch said:

 

I personally believe that the only real limit the Fused have in accessing Odium's voidlight is their own passion. After all there must be some reason for why the Fused value particularly passionate people so much.

Well if they don't maintain their rage the probably go crazy and or become completely useless.

 

On 7/10/2019 at 0:43 PM, bxcnch said:

We have seen how to access Odium's power in two cases: Moash and Dalinar. Dalinar first: He was chosen by Odium explicitly because of his passionate and strongly emotional "blackthorn" persona.

He is also the greatest tactician in Rosharn history, a bondsmith, a king, leader of the Radiants...

On 7/10/2019 at 0:43 PM, bxcnch said:

Meanwhile, Navani couldn't see him in Thaylenah

Navani is not invested and can't see shadesmar.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Does this perhaps mean that Fused and by extension Parshendi, have perfect gemstones as gemhearts?

I believe that is the prevailing theory, but I am not sure if it has been confirmed or not. 

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I believe that is the prevailing theory, but I am not sure if it has been confirmed or not. 

If this is the case where did the King's drop come from? Dun Dun Dun.

[Pathfinder]

56 minutes ago, Karger said:

If this is the case where did the King's drop come from? Dun Dun Dun.

Lol, Parshendi gemhearts are small and milky white. Though it was commented on that they used to be harvested for their gemhearts as well before that knowledge was lost. 

[Karger]

21 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Lol, Parshendi gemhearts are small and milky white. Though it was commented on that they used to be harvested for their gemhearts as well before that knowledge was lost. 

I was implying the existence of a superparshendi the size of a giant(mostly as a joke).

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

I was implying the existence of a superparshendi the size of a giant(mostly as a joke).

Ah I see. lol.

[Ethan_sedai]

I wonder if it would be possible to create a fabrial that would draw in voidlight. . . .Navani would know.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Ethan_Sedai

[Karger]

10 minutes ago, Ethan_Sedai said:

I wonder if it would be possible to create a fabrial that would draw in voidlight. . . .Navani would know.

No she would not.  Otherwise every soldier would have one for killing fused by now.

[Ethan_sedai]

Just now, Karger said:

No she would not.  Otherwise every soldier would have one for killing fused by now.

No, I mean she might know if it would be possible to create a fabrial that would get voidlight directly from Odium just like the Fused do.

[Karger]

29 minutes ago, Ethan_Sedai said:

No, I mean she might know if it would be possible to create a fabrial that would get voidlight directly from Odium just like the Fused do.

It is possible.  What do you think forms of power are?

[Quantus]

Woof, 2018 thread necro..

 

There's another possibility that I dont think has been mentioned: What if the Gem itself needs to be realigned to Odium before it can hold Voidlight.  We know that the Everstorm did not recharge gems with Stormlight or Voidlight, but only per the Radiant's observations.  We know the Fused are getting it somehow.  And we know it is possible to get Voidlight into a Gem, since Galivar had one.  And per the message in the Drawer, the Recreance-era Radiants had seen Odium supply it directly and later saw Ba-Ado-Mishram supplying it to the void forces.  We also know that Gemhearts themselves represent a direct tap to the Spiritual Realm, which crystallizes Investiture into a Gem (per WOB its a similar mechanism to Atium bead formation).  I suspect having that physiological Connection to the Spiritual Realm is what lets Singers naturally hear the Rhythms.  So Maybe the gems (or perhaps their pre-harvest hosts) need to be re-attuned closer to Odium before they operate for Voidlight.  So a Singer's Gemheart can utilize Voidlight only after they have been re-attuned and start hearing the Void-ish Rhythms.  It would make some amount of sense for Odium to be taking the existing Investiture and re-calibrating it for his own use, the way he seems to be doing with the spren themselves.  

[Karger]

32 minutes ago, Quantus said:

There's another possibility that I dont think has been mentioned: What if the Gem itself needs to be realigned to Odium before it can hold Voidlight.  We know that the Everstorm did not recharge gems with Stormlight or Voidlight, but only per the Radiant's observations.  We know the Fused are getting it somehow.  And we know it is possible to get Voidlight into a Gem, since Galivar had one.  And per the message in the Drawer, the Recreance-era Radiants had seen Odium supply it directly and later saw Ba-Ado-Mishram supplying it to the void forces.  We also know that Gemhearts themselves represent a direct tap to the Spiritual Realm, which crystallizes Investiture into a Gem (per WOB its a similar mechanism to Atium bead formation).  I suspect having that physiological Connection to the Spiritual Realm is what lets Singers naturally hear the Rhythms.  So Maybe the gems (or perhaps their pre-harvest hosts) need to be re-attuned closer to Odium before they operate for Voidlight.  So a Singer's Gemheart can utilize Voidlight only after they have been re-attuned and start hearing the Void-ish Rhythms.  It would make some amount of sense for Odium to be taking the existing Investiture and re-calibrating it for his own use, the way he seems to be doing with the spren themselves.  

So only those singers who were turned into fused will have gemstones suitable for voidish fabrials.

[Quantus]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

So only those singers who were turned into fused will have gemstones suitable for voidish fabrials.

Not necessarily.  Singers start hearing the Void rhythms after they take on any of the Forms of Power which come about by bonding to a corrupted/voids-spren, they dont actually have to be hosting a Fused Cognitive Shadow.  By that data-point Id be guessing that things liek Stormform as being fueled by Voidlight, thought there would then be a bit of a Chicken Vs Egg question on the Everstorm.

[SplinterOfHonor]

To me, the word 'unlimited' in the WoB implies that

1) The total amount of Voidlight accessible is infinite, and

2) The rate at which Voidlight can be used is infinite.

Since the WoB says that it is not unlimited, one or both of these is not true. Since the Fused are probably directly connected to Odium, the total amount of Voidlight accessible is practically infinite (any Investiture they use goes directly back to their source, like with Allomancy and Preservation). This would mean that the rate at which they use it is limited.

This provides for contrast in limitations between the Fused and KR. The Fused have unlimited Voidlight, but limited rates of use, while the KR have unlimited rate of use (however many Lashings Kaladin wants, for example), but limited amounts (how many spheres are around).

Ignoring the special cases of highstorms and Dalinar being epic, this would explain the differences in ability to accelerate and stay aloft we see in OB.

Regarding the Larkin's absorption of Voidlight killing a Fused, I don't exactly remember how that scene goes, but I'd guess that the Fused require a certain constant amount of Voidlight to possess a singer body, and the Larkin's rate of drain was greater than the rate of supply, removing all Voidlight long enough to kill it.

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, SplinterOfHonor said:

To me, the word 'unlimited' in the WoB implies that

1) The total amount of Voidlight accessible is infinite, and

2) The rate at which Voidlight can be used is infinite.

Since the WoB says that it is not unlimited, one or both of these is not true. Since the Fused are probably directly connected to Odium, the total amount of Voidlight accessible is practically infinite (any Investiture they use goes directly back to their source, like with Allomancy and Preservation). This would mean that the rate at which they use it is limited.

This provides for contrast in limitations between the Fused and KR. The Fused have unlimited Voidlight, but limited rates of use, while the KR have unlimited rate of use (however many Lashings Kaladin wants, for example), but limited amounts (how many spheres are around).

Ignoring the special cases of highstorms and Dalinar being epic, this would explain the differences in ability to accelerate and stay aloft we see in OB.

Regarding the Larkin's absorption of Voidlight killing a Fused, I don't exactly remember how that scene goes, but I'd guess that the Fused require a certain constant amount of Voidlight to possess a singer body, and the Larkin's rate of drain was greater than the rate of supply, removing all Voidlight long enough to kill it.

Personally I think Occam's Razor. The simplest answer to what happened with the larkin is that it ate the voidlight that the fused had. Then the fused was killed. I take the WoB and information as simply the fused hold voidlight perfectly while radiants leak. If I give you a squeeze bottle full of water, and then cut a hole in its side, when you squeeze out the water, you get less for a shorter time. If however you have a squeeze bottle full of water, and squeeze it steadily, it lasts for far longer. Or put it to numbers. Making up arbitrary number 100. If every time a radiant holds stormlight, he or she passively loses 10 stormlight regardless of their usage, while a fused loses none, the numbers will reflect that rather quickly. Lets say using the same ability at the same strength uses up 15. That means every moment of use, the radiant loses 25, while the fused loses 15. In 4 "rounds" the radiant is empty, while the fused still had 40, or 2.6 more "rounds" of use. And that is not counting the "flaring" of surges that radiants frequently do.