Let's talk about Kaladin's attitude in WoR.

[+eveorjoy]

A large group, not a majority but quite a few people, seem to have an issue with Kaladin's attitude in WoR. Yes, he has a chip the size of a boulder on his shoulder. Yes, he is down right rude to most lighteyes, though to be fair this happened more often after Amaram arrived on the shattered plains. Yes, he has paranoid illogical fears.

And you know what, thank goodness. If he didn't he wouldn't be human. He would be a perfect Gary Stu character. Kaladin has just spent a year being destroyed as a human being and being broken for the second time in his life. The first time happened when he lost his brother and he still isn't over that event. Maybe that will be his character arc in book 3. Anyway, if Kaladin were happy it wouldn't be realistic. If he believed wholeheartedly in Dalinar and Adolin it would seem fake.

TWoKs was about Kaladin discovering he wasn't powerless and did have control over his life. He only somewhat trusted Dalinar because of one unusual event and Syl's word. In fact I think Syl's opinion of Dalinar had far more to do with Kaladin's choice to put his livelihood in Dalinar's hands.

 WoR is about him learning to trust again and learning how his choices effect him. And he came through his issues in about two months. People who have been through trauma like his can take years to come to the place he did by the end of WoR.

Also, he was aware he wasn't thinking and acting right. He admitted to himself and Syl several times throughout the book. Knowing you have a problem is only the first step in working through it. It took exposure to the Kholins and Shallan to realize how wrong he was about lighteyes in general and that someone with lighteyes could be trusted. This was a really important lesson to learn before he became one himself.

Further he needed to trust that his power would not be taken from him again before he could be the poster boy for the KR. Dalinar might be the leader, but he will be in the background. Kaladin will be the champion leading the charge and he will be the face of the Radiants to Roshar. The man at the end of TWoKs or at the beginning of WoR could not have filled that role. Kaladin had already been in that role before when he was Kaladin Stormblessed, the youngest and most celebrated squadleader in Amaram's army. He was already a rising star and then he lost it all. Of course he would believe that it all could be taken from him. All his power was taken from him before. I think that is the reason most of Bridge Four adjusted to freedom better than he did. This new life in Dalinar's army was a first for them and they had Kaladin to protect them. Kaladin didn't have anyone to protect him accept Dalinar and he wasn't completely sure about Dalinar. I was so shocked when Kaladin told Dalinar about Amaram's betrayal. The fact that Kaladin did so was very brave and showed that he was trying.

So that's my opinion on Kaladin's attitude in this book. I do hope this is the most angst we get from Kal for the rest of the series. He came a long way in WoR and I found the journey compelling and believable. But if you disagree I would love to discuss it.

[Argent]

I was quite happy with him. His arc felt logical, it made sense that he says, feels, and does what he does. My only issue is with his challenge to Amaram after the duel, but I've never felt the kind of hatred he feels for Amaram, so it's something I am willing to suspend my disbelief about and trust the author. 

[+eveorjoy]

I was quite happy with him. His arc felt logical, it made sense that he says, feels, and does what he does. My only issue is with his challenge to Amaram after the duel, but I've never felt the kind of hatred he feels for Amaram, so it's something I am willing to suspend my disbelief about and trust the author. 

 

I agree he made a foolish mistake in challenging Amaram at the end of the duel but both Dalinar and Adolin understood why he did what he did,

 

 

“He was caught up in the moment ,” Dalinar said.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 675). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Dalinar said. “I understand, though. If you truly believe what you told me about Amaram . . . well, if I’d been in your place, I’d have been hard pressed not to do the same thing you did..

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 750). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

“Yeah,” Adolin said, reaching the door at the end of the hallway. “Dueling is formalized in a way I suspect you just don’t get.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 780). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Kaladin in a moment of anger and passion made an uninformed choice. Yes it was foolish, but at least he was trying to duel Amaram in a somewhat honorable way. He never attacked Amaram on the numerous occasions he could have before that. Sadly, I have known people who have held that kind of anger for someone that destroyed their life. Kaladin showed remarkable restraint throughout the book considering. 

[Ryshadium]

I posted this elsewhere, but I'll repost it here:

I felt Kaladin's arc was a very realistic portrayal of someone coming to terms with a significant life change, and an eventual acceptance that his worldview was perhaps skewed. It was kind of like growing up, and I appreciated that he was able to accept not only who he is, but that light eyes aren't all bad. It's the person, not the eye color that matters.

Kaladin is my favorite character right now. He's very real and relatable. He makes mistakes, he avoids, and he doesn't know how to accept the reality that he's basically going to become that which he's hated his whole life. He basically sabotages himself just so he doesn't have to become a light eyes. That's heavy stuff to deal with. It is no wonder he's psychologically damaged and finds constant rain to be depressing.

[Chaos]

I felt Kaladin's arc was such a natural logical extension of his character. Some might have issues with Kaladin not talking to Dalinar immediately about his powers, but you know what? Kaladin had darn good reasons for not doing that!

It was exactly what Kaladin's arc should have been, in my opinion.

[+eveorjoy]

I felt Kaladin's arc was such a natural logical extension of his character. Some might have issues with Kaladin not talking to Dalinar immediately about his powers, but you know what? Kaladin had darn good reasons for not doing that!

It was exactly what Kaladin's arc should have been, in my opinion.

 

I agree. I was surprised he told Dalinar at all. In fact I started another thread before the book came out wondering if Dalinar would even learn the truth in this book. What happened to Kaladin was soul crushing. I'd have trouble telling something like that to someone I trusted let alone someone I barely know. Yes, he gave up his shardblade for Kaladin and all his bridgemen, but he still barely knows Dalinar. They don't really become "friends" until the end of the book and honestly I think Kaladin is closer to Adolin at this point than Dalinar.

 

I don't think I would have had the courage to tell Dalinar as soon as Kaladin did.

[1empyrean]

My biggest issue with his attitude was that it seemed to me that Kaladin had a little trouble remembering the 2nd ideal of the wind runners, and completely ignored the 1st ideal until the end...So the real problem is with Syl, who could have saved herself a lot of trouble (but ruined Brandon's book ) by reminding Kaladin that he only gets stormlight when he is living up to those ideals (which he figured out for himself when he learned to consciously breath in Stormlight in book 1).

 

I blame a 4 year gap between books and convenient memory loss as plot device, not that big a deal.

Edited March 19, 2014 by 1empyrean

[Chaos]

It seemed to me that Kaladin had a little trouble remembering the 2nd ideal of the wind runners, and completely ignored the 1st ideal until the end...So the real problem is with Syl, who could have saved herself a lot of trouble (but ruined Brandon's book ) by reminding Kaladin that he only gets stormlight when he is living up to those ideals (which he figured out for himself when he learned to consciously breath in Stormlight in book 1).

 

I blame a 4 year gap between books and convenient memory loss as plot device, not that big a deal.

 

I suppose so, but he has a lot of growing to do as a Radiant. Just because he realizes these ideals in times of crises doesn't mean he truly lives the ideals, deep down. That's what I felt Kaladin's arc was all about in this book: learning to truly be a Radiant. Because he wasn't before.

[+eveorjoy]

It seemed to me that Kaladin had a little trouble remembering the 2nd ideal of the wind runners, and completely ignored the 1st ideal until the end...So the real problem is with Syl, who could have saved herself a lot of trouble (but ruined Brandon's book ) by reminding Kaladin that he only gets stormlight when he is living up to those ideals (which he figured out for himself when he learned to consciously breath in Stormlight in book 1).

 

I blame a 4 year gap between books and convenient memory loss as plot device, not that big a deal.

 

I don't think he forgot or ignored his oaths, nor do I think Syl forgot to explain to him what he was doing wrong. I think he didn't realize the full responsibility of those oaths when he took them on. He accepted the powers only after he realized it wasn't a curse and he could use them to save his friends lives, people he liked. His struggles with Elhokar helped him to realize what his oaths really meant, which is one of the reasons those ideals are said again before Kaladin said the third ideal. It's also the point where he accepts the identity and responsibilities of a KR.

 

I think Syl knew that Kaladin shouldn't be focusing on justice and revenge but she didn't fully remember or realize why until it was too late. She did tell Kaladin straight out that his issues with Amaram changed him and that stormlight would leave him if he wasn't using his powers for protection. However, she may not have known how their bond would be effected until she began to lose her mind.

Edited March 19, 2014 by eveorjoy

[The Count]

Kaladin's arc was simultaneously excellent and frustrating to read.

 

I agree with all the points above, Kaladin's actions are really understandable given that he is probably suffering from some form of PTSD.

 

It is easy to forget that Kaladin is in his early 20s (in earth years) so is still very young and immature is some ways, still struggling to find his place in the world and deciding what he wants to do with his life.

 

That said, I found his scenes in the second half of the book infuriating! I kept reading bits and thinking / hoping that he would have moment of revelation or epiphany that would snap him out of his despondency. I think I actually shouted "Oh for **** sake Kaladin! GET OVER YOURSELF!" at the book at one point.

 

His character development is realistic and excellently written while being less fun (for want of a better word) to read. I kept rooting for him and believing in him, but did also want to slap him upside the head.

[+eveorjoy]

Kaladin's arc was simultaneously excellent and frustrating to read.

 

I agree with all the points above, Kaladin's actions are really understandable given that he is probably suffering from some form of PTSD.

 

It is easy to forget that Kaladin is in his early 20s (in earth years) so is still very young and immature is some ways, still struggling to find his place in the world and deciding what he wants to do with his life.

 

That said, I found his scenes in the second half of the book infuriating! I kept reading bits and thinking / hoping that he would have moment of revelation or epiphany that would snap him out of his despondency. I think I actually shouted "Oh for **** sake Kaladin! GET OVER YOURSELF!" at the book at one point.

 

His character development is realistic and excellently written while being less fun (for want of a better word) to read. I kept rooting for him and believing in him, but did also want to slap him upside the head.

 

I understand this point of view. In fact if an author can make me get to the point where I want to slap a character upside the head it often means they are doing something right.

 

I do hope if Kaladin goes this dark again in later books it will be in a less angstly way. Hopefully he won't at all because I guess he would become powerless then. Still I agree with Chaos that this is the arc his character needed in this book.

[Chaos]

Kaladin's arc was simultaneously excellent and frustrating to read.

I agree with all the points above, Kaladin's actions are really understandable given that he is probably suffering from some form of PTSD.

It is easy to forget that Kaladin is in his early 20s (in earth years) so is still very young and immature is some ways, still struggling to find his place in the world and deciding what he wants to do with his life.

That said, I found his scenes in the second half of the book infuriating! I kept reading bits and thinking / hoping that he would have moment of revelation or epiphany that would snap him out of his despondency. I think I actually shouted "Oh for **** sake Kaladin! GET OVER YOURSELF!" at the book at one point.

His character development is realistic and excellently written while being less fun (for want of a better word) to read. I kept rooting for him and believing in him, but did also want to slap him upside the head.

I suppose I can understand that, and I'm sure for similar reasons some would've disliked Kaladin's arc a lot.

[The Count]

Don't misunderstand me.

 

I loved the book and Kaladin's arc because they evoked such a powerful reaction (quiet rare for me).

 

I have always felt that there is a tendency in Fantasy novels for characters to achieve growth through revelation which I find quite unbelievable sometimes.

 

Kaladin development had a bit of this, but the road to his epiphany was so well explored that it felt truly believable.

 

I believe the narrative arc was meant to evoke some frustration in Kaladin and display the trouble of being a young adult still struggling with grief and betrayal.

[Topomouse]

Initially I didn't like Kaladin's character arc, it seemed too much of a repetion of his character development in TWoK, like he had forgotten most of what he learned between the two books(like it happens in many tv shows...), even the 3rd Ideal seemed way too similar to the 2nd.

Now, after thinking about it a bit and reading others' opinions in these forums i changed my mind.

As I now see it, the 3rd Ideal of the Windrunners is a necessary corollary of the 2nd, without it they could put themselves in the position of judging who deserves to live and to die without breaking the letter of the Ideal while betraying its spirit, with it they actually decide to protect everyone. In TWoK this problem didn't present itself: Kaladin and the bridgemen were obviously the oppressed, there was no conflict in the decision, Idem with Dalinar at the Tower, they had been clearly betrayed and needed help. On the other hand in WoR Kaladin scope had expanded, he now had many more options, his path was less clear so he to really find his way, earlier it was just "give up and die" or "continue trying to save everyone" maybe not easy, but surely non complicated.

Also, like othes said, his chapters were heavy to read, like Rand in his most emo moments, or Frodo and Sam trudgeing through Mordor. Not bad-written, just heavy.

[Dru]

I would like to try and illustrate Kaladins arc with a real world senario...... 

 

Imagine you are living out in nowhere and you have to drive to the next city..... it is 400km through forrest, forrest and some more forrest. during this trip you will see trees some more trees and some trees, if you are extremely lucky you might see some rare animal to spice the trip like a bear or a lynx but you know beforehand that you will mostly just see trees. Now this is boring as h**l .... about 5 hours with seeing trees ... trust me this sucks i know.

 

Now how does this compare to Kaladins arc.... well we know Kaladin have issues with lighters, his trust of them etc, we know he have suffered a lot, more then anyone should and we know he is grumpy etc. Now we knew al this even before WoR. So when we are to read and "write" Kaladins arc (journey) we have a huge benefit compared to the real life senario namely that we can choose to not write the full journey since we already know it we kan just do half of it. It is a little hard to skip 200km of that car journey in real life but with writing its different....

 

My issue is that we spent an entire book worth of Kalandins arc to see trees and trees and trees. Trees that we already know was there. Yes I totally agree some of this was necessary but damnation it was to much, way to much, this could have been sorted and dealt with 1/2 way through the book and the second half spent on new progression. Right now i just feel like we spent 1 book reading about Kaladin and we hardly see the outskirts of the "neighbouring city".... it feels like we are at the same place as we started.....

 

Now that was my humble and personal opinion

Edited March 19, 2014 by Dru

[Youngy]

I spent majority of the book screaming at my phone (e-book) angry and frustrated things at Kaladin... And I loved every minute of it.

He needed to travel that road and reach that realisation. Yes, it could have happened earlier... But after having the same thing beaten into him time and time again - and then when he finally almost gets over it - is hit with it again, of course he's going to hold back and react that way.

But its not only that for me... If a story doesn't make me laugh, cry, rage, feel immense relief, throw the book, and generally shout all manner of things, then I'm not absolutely loving it. There aren't many books that can do that for me, and this was certainly one.

[shinintendo]

To tell you the truth I thought Kal will rush to Amaram to bust his B**** the first time he saw him shaking hands with Dalinar.

I thought he will act more rashly but I guess he surprised me with his patience to wait and see Dalinar actions, he trusted him.

Only when he saw Dalinar take no action he challenge Amaram to duel, it's very understandable, he felt betrayed by Dalinar.

Dalinar worked in hush hush I can't blame Kal to be mad about him, theirs is a new friendship and Kal got burned once already by a high station Light Eyes.

[Edgedancer]

To be fair to Kaladin, if he "just" had to get over his hatred of lighteyes he would most likely have told Dalinar pretty soon. Afterall, he knew that most of his fear was irrational and needed some time to prepare himself. But what happend? Dalinar turned out to be BFs with Amaram and that stung twice over. Not only does that remember him of his reasons to hate them it also made anohter fear of Kaladin more realistic. That Dalinar might be just like Amaram, he seemed honorable at first too.

And then Kaladin worked against those not anexties and confined in Dalinar. The result? Dalinar disrecards his story and names Amaram the KR. Yes I know Dalinar investigated and so on but Kaladin had no way of knowing.

This leaves Kaladin in a position where Dalinar, from his point of view, who was his only chance at justice lets him down and he still doesn´t just lose his rust. Challenging Amaram was still stupid but it was also a lot better than just murdering him or, arguably worse, decide there is no point in protecting lighteyes and just letting Adolin die in the arena. (And lets be honest, given that none of the viewers knew that Kaladin had Stormlight what he did was way more impressive than Adolins workload, not that he didn´t hold himself quite impressively as well.)

[Aleksiel]

I was at times annoyed or frustrated with Kaladin preciously because his arc was very realistic and brilliantly written; I think Brandon intended for the readers feel this way.  So, even though I may say 'I hated when Kal agreed with Elhokar's assassination' I in no way mean it wasn't perfect for the story or believable. I think Kaladin is the best character Brandon have written so far.

 

Do I make sense?

[taliefer]

Kaladin is by far my favorite protagonist in any fantasy series. he just feel like a real person, who even before all the dramatic events took place, had real issues. there are hints that Kaladin deals with a form of depression even in his flashbacks when his life was good. He's just a really impressive character,

 

his arc in this book WAS frustrating at times. but it was so well portrayed. and then the payoff was worth it. you just kept going down this dark path, and then literally down into the chasms. and then the payoff was soooo worth the frustration felt. it was powerful stuff man.

[Cheeky-eyes]

Throughout most of the book I could see where his choices were leading him, and that no good would come of them. No good at all. But at the same time I knew there was no way Kaladin would make any other choice given the variety of circumstances that led him there. It was inevitable and I was just extremely happy that Syl came back in this book because I was worried that it would happen in the next. I too feel his arc in this book was believable and it certainly would have been cheap if he hadn't struggled through his issues once he was out of the life or death situation. I just felt really sorry for him and especially sorry for Syl! 

 

I like the third ideal, because the information we were given about the Windrunners stated that they had a set hierarchy in place, and it is one thing to protect people you care about or even don't know. But it's another entirely to protect someone you hate. It may be a clause of the second ideal but it is a very important one. 

 

Plus I think is thing against the constant rain of the Weeping might have something to do with him being a Windrunner. Shallan was set up as his opposite in this book and she loved the Weeping, so there is that in play too. 

[Aminar]

Kaladin is a character study into Depression, and the constant battle with it. In that sense his character development is MASTERFUL. That doesn't change the fact dealing with people who have chronic depressive issues can be frustrating as hell. I'd have been frustrated with him not that long ago. Instead I was just amazed at how well Brandond handled his character arc. I love that this series is a dialogue on how to stand tall despite mental illness, a display of the strength it takes to get over it, and the fact anyone that does has the willpower of a hero.(Which everyone can and should be taught to have... But that's another discussion.)

[kaellok]

Kaladin's character arc in WoR was almost identical to what it was in WoK, but not done as well.  It doesn't matter how logical it was, or how much sense it made, or even how necessary some of it was--the fact that it took an entire book for him to get to where he left off at the last book was boring (for a Sanderson novel, anyway; I still loved WoR and finished it in only a few days, going sleep deprived, but thankful that when my eyes were burning too much I could find a Kaladin chapter and decide to sleep instead of pushing on.) 

 

On the other hand, every other PoV character was either awesome (Lift is all of the win) or much improved from WoK--I even found myself liking Adolind.  I loved Shallan even more in WoR than WoK, and so I was very happy with the amount of screentime she got.

 

The difference between these characters and Kaladin?  Their character arcs progressed, while Kaladin just floundered. Again, maybe this was a masterful portrayal of what he was going through--but you could probably have cut out 1/3 of his scenes and not changed his arc at all.  That leaves a lot of time to get seriously annoyed with one of the main characters.  Clearly, he did something right with this character arc to have so many vocal supporters, but I'm just not seeing it.  I might have amdifferent opinion if his actions were more in keeping with Syl, rather than dismissing her arguments or ignoring her completely--up until the point he kills her.  And even then, he doesn't try to find out why, or what happened; he just mopes some more.

 

I always felt that his character arc in WoK was about coming to terms with himself, and learning to take responsibility for actions he takes or doesn't take.  I was just disappointed that that can also be said for WoR.

[Rybal]

I think that the internal conflict within Kaladin was very necessary for the series. We needed to learn that there were other ways that the Nahel bond could be broken/damaged to see that it wasn't simply a "Once you have it, it's yours forever" kind of deal.

 

Sure, it may have felt like it lasted a LONG time, but it still felt RIGHT.

[+eveorjoy]

Kaladin's character arc in WoR was almost identical to what it was in WoK, but not done as well.  It doesn't matter how logical it was, or how much sense it made, or even how necessary some of it was--the fact that it took an entire book for him to get to where he left off at the last book was boring (for a Sanderson novel, anyway; I still loved WoR and finished it in only a few days, going sleep deprived, but thankful that when my eyes were burning too much I could find a Kaladin chapter and decide to sleep instead of pushing on.) 

 

On the other hand, every other PoV character was either awesome (Lift is all of the win) or much improved from WoK--I even found myself liking Adolind.  I loved Shallan even more in WoR than WoK, and so I was very happy with the amount of screentime she got.

 

The difference between these characters and Kaladin?  Their character arcs progressed, while Kaladin just floundered. Again, maybe this was a masterful portrayal of what he was going through--but you could probably have cut out 1/3 of his scenes and not changed his arc at all.  That leaves a lot of time to get seriously annoyed with one of the main characters.  Clearly, he did something right with this character arc to have so many vocal supporters, but I'm just not seeing it.  I might have amdifferent opinion if his actions were more in keeping with Syl, rather than dismissing her arguments or ignoring her completely--up until the point he kills her.  And even then, he doesn't try to find out why, or what happened; he just mopes some more.

 

I always felt that his character arc in WoK was about coming to terms with himself, and learning to take responsibility for actions he takes or doesn't take.  I was just disappointed that that can also be said for WoR.

 

What would you like to have read instead?