Who tells Demoux?

[Govir]

In Well of Ascension, Demoux preaches about the yellow sun, the green plants, the blue and ashless skies. Vin asks him who told him about that, and I too am now wondering: Who told him of that. Vin chalks it up to rumors, but those rumors have to start from somewhere. Do we have any idea where they started?

I have read all of the books, so feel free to bring any evidence.

[Niteshado]

Maybe Kel? Or Sazed, i believe he had knowledge of it?

Kel talked about it if i remember correctly, because his wife was obsessed with Pre-Catacendre. Demoux probably followed what Kel talked about.

Edited June 14, 2018 by Niteshado

[Journey Before Pancakes]

I assumed either Kelsier or Vin.

I think Kelsier is most likely, since Demoux was in his crew for awhile, and he seemed to like that story.

Vin is also possible.  Spook for example says it was Vin who told him what flowers were.  That was likely because Kelsier didn't spend much time with Spook from what we saw, but he was part of Vin/Elends "crew" for years after TFE fell.

[Govir]

I guess I should do some speculation of my own. Let's start with who knew about the pre-Lord Ruler world.

1. Ruin
2. Preservation
3. Kelsier
4. Vin
5. Presumably all the Keepers
6. The Kandra, maybe

I think Ruin is right out, since there's no reason for him to spread rumors of a world prior to the Lord Ruler. Similarly, Preservation probably doesn't either (although he's more likely than Ruin).

Vin is another one that's right out, since if she's the one who told him, she wouldn't be the one to question where he learned about it.

I could see Kelsier telling Demoux, but there are some issues. Demoux seems to have learned of these things after Kelsier's death. That may not be an issue, but during WoA Kelsier was trapped in the Well. Demoux was devout enough, but Kelsier wouldn't have been able to reach him. Prior to Kelsier's death, I don't think Demoux and him were close enough for Kelsier to talk of Mare's dream of a different world.

The Kandra were technically around prior to the Lord Ruler, but it's likely that only the First Generation have any actual memory of it (because we know that Kandra memories degrade when they don't have Blessings). And they're not very talkative. So I don't think it's from them.

The Keepers may be spreading the rumors, in so much as they are trying to bring back the knowledge of the world. This seems to be the most likely cause, and it's probably like Vin said: it's just general rumor that is becoming stronger now that the Lord Ruler is gone.

One last thing to think of is that Mare would have had to have heard about this stuff from somewhere as well. That means even while the Lord Ruler was alive, there would have been rumors. So maybe I'm just trying to look too deep into this.

 

Stormlight Archive spoilers to follow

Spoiler

Part of the reason I was questioning it is because we know Demoux pops up again in Stormlight Archive. I think Kelsier had a hand in that, in so much as maybe talking with Demoux after Kelsier was no longer trapped in the Well. But this scene between Vin and Demoux got me thinking that maybe something else was going on with Demoux prior to when Kelsier would have been able to reach him.

 

[Calderis]

Sazed finds it odd that these things have entered into the mythos of the church, as no one outside of the group knew of it, except for people that he himself would have preached the religions to himself. It's where Mare originally got the information. 

I don't know why it was done, but the only logical way for that information to have gotten out is by Ruin reaching out to members of the church and planting ideas in their head, or changing things that were written to include them. 

[Govir]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Sazed finds it odd that these things have entered into the mythos of the church, as no one outside of the group knew of it, except for people that he himself would have preached the religions to himself. It's where Mare originally got the information.

I haven't gotten to a part where Sazed finds it odd, but I'll be on the look out for it. In the second part, are you saying that Sazed preached to Mare about the old world? Because I don't think that's the case. I'm vaguely remembering Sazed say that he joined up with Kelsier shortly before Vin did.

Here's some interesting things I found digging around the WoBs

 

Quote

Phantine

What's up with Mare? Here's my Conspiracy Wall about her.

TL;DR Paalm was Mare. She spent most of Shadows of Self trying to imitate Kelsier.

Brandon Sanderson

This one is a RAFO, I'm afraid. As I've said, there are things about Mare I haven't gone into.

Phantine

Putting aside whether this theory was accurate...

Have you seeded anything else in the books that this level of newspaper-clippings-connected-with-string thinking would be necessary to figure out?

Brandon Sanderson

I have put things in like this, but generally I don't think I'm putting in enough foreshadowing for them to be recognized--I'm just working under an assumption on my part, which then reflects in the writing, which then people put together. (Which sometimes surprises me.)

So, I don't generally put in puzzles this complex intentionally to make people figure them out. But the puzzles do end up in the stories, and can be figured out, nonetheless.

source

 

Quote

UndertakerSheep

Did Kelsier, after holding preservation and Sazed becoming Harmony, ever find out if Mare really betrayed him or not?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, I'm afraid. There is more coming on this topic in the future.

source

 

Two different WoBs saying there's more information forthcoming about Mare.

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, Govir said:

the second part, are you saying that Sazed preached to Mare about the old world? Because I don't think that's the case. I'm vaguely remembering Sazed say that he joined up with Kelsier shortly before Vin did.

That's exactly what I'm saying. 

From HoA. 

Quote

He didn't have to turn pages. He simply read the same words over and over, turning them in his mind, playing with them. Trying to decide. Did this one have the truth? It was the one that Mare, Kelsier's wife, had believed. She'd been one of the few people Sazed had ever met who had chosen to believe in one of the old religions he had preached.

    The Larsta believed that life was about seeking the divine, he read. They taught that art draws us closer to understanding divinity. Since not all men can spend their time in art, it is to the benefit of society as a whole to support a group of dedicated artists to create great works, which then elevate those who experience them.

The Larsta are also the religion from which the correct colors of things were known. It seems clear this is where Mare got the idea. 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Calderis

[Govir]

Curse your use of actual text to back up your arguments yet again @Calderis! (and yet again, thanks)

So Mare definitely learned it from Sazed.

I'm leaning towards Demoux having picked it up from general rumor then.

[Doomdrinker]

Id always assumed that kelsier talked about it when he was recruiting and inspiring the ska, and thus demoux picked it up second hand from them.

[Calderis]

At least according to TenSoon posing as OreSeur, that was not the case. After Vin hears Demoux preaching about the green plants and blue sky she had this exchange with the Kandra. 

Quote

Was it any wonder that this concept would become central to the church that sprang up around him? "Did he have you teach things like we just heard Demoux say?" Vin asked. "About the ash no longer falling, and the sun turning yellow?"

    "No, Mistress."

    "That's what I thought," Vin said as she heard rustling on the stones below. She glanced over the side of the building, and saw Demoux returning to the palace.

 

[Doomdrinker]

But what about the months leading up to his death, when he spent a lot of time going from place to place talking with ska? He was recruiting sure but I always assumed that's where he did the majority of his inspiring for the actual revolution, with OreSeur being the final push. 

[+robardin]

On 6/14/2018 at 10:54 AM, Govir said:

I guess I should do some speculation of my own. Let's start with who knew about the pre-Lord Ruler world.

1. Ruin
2. Preservation
3. Kelsier
4. Vin
5. Presumably all the Keepers
6. The Kandra, maybe

Well the First Generation of kandra have memories going back to before Rashek's Ascension; the Keepers, not so much, as all the living Feruchemists other than the First Generation were turned into mistwraiths and never returned to full sentience. Their knowledge of the pre-Ascension world as passed down to Sazed was all compiled starting from that time on, and with time being required for new Feruchemists to appear and to train themselves without the benefit of senior Feruchemists (if they were lucky, some Terris textbooks on Feruchemy may have initially survived Rashek's purges).

But there's another category of people with this knowledge that you haven't listed: worldhoppers.

Not just Hoid, either, since he makes reference to an entire ecosystem of trade that used to run through the "easy to reach" perpendicularity at the Pits of Hathsin.

There's no reason to think that such worldhopping only began after Rashek's Ascension. And we've seen that at least some of the mechanisms for worldhopping have a side effect (at least) of prolonging one's lifespan, as Khriss is in White Sand, one of the earliest Cosmere settings, but also on Scadrial to talk to Kelsier in Secret History and later to dance with Wax in Bands of Mourning. (And eventually, even appear in Sixth of the Dusk, which is set in the "spacefaring" era of Mistborn 4, isn't it?)

In theory, there could even be a native pre-Ascension Scadrian who worldhopped off after Rashek took over, and has been checking back in every once in a while to see if the prophesized Hero of Ages has done his/her/its thing yet.

Hmmm... Is that the Secret of Mare? That she was actually an original follower of Larsta from before the Ascension, or a descendant of them, who came back to Scadrial? Seems unlikely since she was a Tineye, but she could be one of the Allomancers who Snapped from the mists in Alendi's time, or be descended from them.

Edited June 15, 2018 by robardin

[Govir]

On 6/15/2018 at 2:46 PM, robardin said:

Well the First Generation of kandra have memories going back to before Rashek's Ascension; the Keepers, not so much

You're right that the Keepers don't have memories of before Rashek's Ascension. But they have the record of the religions and at least pass on the idea the world *may* have been green beforehand. The only direct link we know about someone learning this information is that Sazed preaches Larsta to Mare, and Mare begins to believe in the green world.

On 6/15/2018 at 2:46 PM, robardin said:

But there's another category of people with this knowledge that you haven't listed: worldhoppers.

You're right again that I forgot about possible pre-Ascension worldhoppers. It's a possibility, but as I've said already, I'm leaning towards Demoux having just picked it up as a general rumor.

[LadyLameness]

On 15/06/2018 at 0:54 AM, Govir said:

I think Ruin is right out, since there's no reason for him to spread rumors of a world prior to the Lord Ruler.

When I was reading WoA, I actually did think it was Ruin behind the rumours. I assumed he was spreading the rumours as a way to perpetuate the thought that Vin was special and reinforce the likelihood of her being the Hero of Ages as it would increase his chances of being released.