Do the Rosharans know that their planet is round?

[Supreme King Z-arc]

My brother was reading the WoK and pointed this line out to me when wit is talking to Dalinar 

Quote

Wit's eyes narrowed, and he scanned the night sky. "It's been happening for months now. A whirlwind. Shifting and churning, blowing us around and around. Like a world spinning, but we can't see it  because we're too much a part of it"

"World spinning. What foolishness is this?"

My brother thinks that this means that the Rosharans think the world is flat. This would make sense for someone less educated but would Jasnah know that the world is round?

[The One Who Connects]

7 minutes ago, Skip Hates Dragons said:

My brother thinks that this means that the Rosharans think the world is flat.

There is debate in-world whether or not the Highstorms are a singular storm that goes around the planet, so I don't think they can think the world is flat in that circumstance.

I remember people talking about something in that conversation as Dalinar thinking the sun moves around the earth though, so it could be that.

[Windrunner]

Yeah, I think the implication here is they know the planet is round but not necessarily that it spins. It's actually a common misconception that even here on Earth that early societies didn't know the shape of the world; the ancient Greeks figured out in something like 300 BCE. 

[goody153]

That's interesting. Also pretty fun if Dalinar mentions something like that and Stormfather goes "actually ..."

[Barbarian AL]

I agree With @Windrunner. Some people will think its flat though, I don't doubt that. People today think that and we have all manner of evidence against it. But the spin of the earth around its own axis is a harder concept to be internalised. After all, you can't witness it from a mountain top like, say, the curvature of the earth (Or a planet like Roshar).

[ScarletSabre]

Plus I recall Dalinar, or possibly Kaladin, looking to the horizon on the Shattered Plains, and contemplating the Origin, and thinking of it as being on the "other side of the world", which implies (to me at least) that they're aware the planet is round.

[teknopathetic]

It would be hilarious if Roshar was in fact a flat planet and we had just been assuming Roshar was round.

Cultivation was in fact a Flat Yolener, and she was forced to shatter her God or else be forced to admit her folly; Honour loved to stick his honourblade in crazy, and he helped her keep up her insane delusions to keep things bangin' in the bedroom. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by teknopathetic

[1st of Lunch]

"The only thing 'flat Rosharans' have to fear is sphere itself."

[Apollyon]

Wait a minute, kinda off topic, but if Kaladin were to last himself in any direction, would he go around the world or just keep going out into space? Is there a thread on this?

[Weltall]

Assuming no partial Lashings and thus no gravity pulling him 'down' then in theory he could reach orbit that way (provided he angles it so his path doesn't intersect a highstorm or any mountains or the like) but it would be far less efficient than simply going straight up.

Though it's also possible there's a perception filter in place and a surgebinder will actually circle the planet because they think they should, unless they make a conscious effort.

[Calderis]

13 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Though it's also possible there's a perception filter in place and a surgebinder will actually circle the planet because they think they should, unless they make a conscious effort.

That's my thoughts on it. They're falling "east" and not at a tangent on the x-axis of the Cosmere. 

[DocHoliday]

17 hours ago, Calderis said:

That's my thoughts on it. They're falling "east" and not at a tangent on the x-axis of the Cosmere. 

Idk...this makes sense from Kaladin's perception, but are the Lashings affected by perception? I mean we always see them being jerked around a falling into a new direction, like a bullet from a gun. Once it's Lashed, nothing else is affecting it gravitationally. So in Theory, he should leave orbit.

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, DocHoliday said:

Idk...this makes sense from Kaladin's perception, but are the Lashings affected by perception? I mean we always see them being jerked around a falling into a new direction, like a bullet from a gun. Once it's Lashed, nothing else is affecting it gravitationally. So in Theory, he should leave orbit.

What Cosmere magic isn't effected by perception? 

[Apollyon]

But it is last I checked, along with Intent. Perception affects spren in the PR, remember? When a person’s perception of them changed, the spren did itself. Same goes for how spren look slightly different in separate areas. Probably caused by perception. 

Edit: added WoB

Questioner (paraphrased)
In Shallan, in the beginning and middle of the book it's 10 heartbeats, and in the end of the book it's none...?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
The 10 heartbeats is required to revive a dead Shardblade.

Questioner (paraphrased)
But he wasn't dead the whole time.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
He wasn't.  But perception-- all magic systems in the Cosmere are based on perception-what you think you can do. For instance, Kaladin can't get healed because he sees himself as having a wounded forehead with the scars and that can't vanish because his perception is in the way.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/161/#e6988

Edited June 16, 2018 by Apollyon

[The One Who Connects]

On 6/14/2018 at 10:49 PM, Apollyon said:

Is there a thread on this?

There isn't, come to think of it. A while back, Brandon gave us a thought experiment about what happens to a Spren when their Radiant crosses the CR's "edge" while trekking around their planet in the Physical Realm, and we've been far too distracted by that to ponder anything else in that lane.

[DocHoliday]

On 6/16/2018 at 0:53 PM, Calderis said:

What Cosmere magic isn't effected by perception? 

IronPull/SteelPush. One time Magical effects, subjected to nothing else but physics and the initial push. I compare Lashing in the same sense. 

I will note, that Kaladin is an Invested object, vs a Scadrian coin projectile. There is a possibility that his perception could be Lashing himself continually, pointed at the Horizon. I suppose it depends if Lashing works like a gun, with a single "push" to start; or as you said Calderis

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, DocHoliday said:

IronPull/SteelPush. One time Magical effects, subjected to nothing else but physics and the initial push. I compare Lashing in the same sense. 

I disagree. Take Wax's situation as a child in the Village and the bullet. A single line to the bullet... But the moment he thought of the bullet as its three distinct parts, there were three lines. 

Perception effects everything. 

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

I disagree. Take Wax's situation as a child in the Village and the bullet. A single line to the bullet... But the moment he thought of the bullet as its three distinct parts, there were three lines. 

Perception effects everything. 

Yep, people seriously understate the importance of perception in the Cosmere magic systems. Brandon has even said that it would be possible for an iron ferring to decrease/increase the weight of part of their body rather than their body as a whole, showing how perception of oneself and one's abilities can cause limitations in how you make use of a magic system. 

The behaviour of Szeth's honorblade due to his perception of what an Honorblade should behave like is further evidence of Perception limiting potential. I for one am curious to see what some of the surges are capable of when these limits are pushed, the surge of Illumination being a prime example of this.

[DocHoliday]

16 hours ago, Calderis said:

I disagree. Take Wax's situation as a child in the Village and the bullet. A single line to the bullet... But the moment he thought of the bullet as its three distinct parts, there were three lines. 

Perception effects everything. 

Yes, I agree that perception has an effect. I don't think I've been unclear on this point.

Regardless of Wax's perspective however, he can only create one effect on the primer, shell, or head. And that's my point in regards to Lashing. Once Wax (Kaladin) Pushes (Lashes) it's a straight line from the point of origin. In the case of Kaladin, not even.the gravitational pull of Roshar would be a part of the equation since Lashing supersedes that gravitational field, like it's not even there.

So I'm back to square one. Either Lashing works as a switch like Ironpulling and Steelpushing; and Kaladin would therefore enter orbit given enough time and Stormlight. Or his continuous perspective affects his previous Lashings.

[Weltall]

Given that the Investiture that makes his Lashings possible flows from the Spiritual Realm where causality is wonky, it's entirely possible that his continuing perception does affect things that he's already done.

[Ethan_sedai]

On 6/19/2018 at 6:40 PM, The One Who Connects said:

There isn't, come to think of it. A while back, Brandon gave us a thought experiment about what happens to a Spren when their Radiant crosses the CR's "edge" while trekking around their planet in the Physical Realm, and we've been far too distracted by that to ponder anything else in that lane.

where is that thread? I tried to search for it, but I didn't find it...

[Scion of the Mists]

On 6/25/2018 at 4:34 AM, DocHoliday said:

So I'm back to square one. Either Lashing works as a switch like Ironpulling and Steelpushing; and Kaladin would therefore enter orbit given enough time and Stormlight. Or his continuous perspective affects his previous Lashings.

The lashing have to be relative to some frame of reference.  Why should they work in a Cartesian system (as your proposing) vice a spherical system (e.g. LLA).  Why would the origin be fixed to Roshar (the planet) and not the Rosharan sun?  Or the center of the Cosmere, for that matter.  

This is where perception comes in to play.  

[DocHoliday]

3 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

The lashing have to be relative to some frame of reference.  Why should they work in a Cartesian system (as your proposing) vice a spherical system (e.g. LLA).  Why would the origin be fixed to Roshar (the planet) and not the Rosharan sun?  Or the center of the Cosmere, for that matter.  

This is where perception comes in to play.  

To use your terms, I'm seeing Lashing as a Cartesian system with the point of origin being Kaladin himself (or whoever is performing the Lashing); not Roshar or anywhere else. 

Once a Lashing takes place, everything else around you is irrelevant in terms of which way you start falling. Your "spiritual link" to the planet is suspended and superseded by the Lashing, and IMO lines up nicely with what I've described.

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, DocHoliday said:

To use your terms, I'm seeing Lashing as a Cartesian system with the point of origin being Kaladin himself (or whoever is performing the Lashing); not Roshar or anywhere else. 

Once a Lashing takes place, everything else around you is irrelevant in terms of which way you start falling. Your "spiritual link" to the planet is suspended and superseded by the Lashing, and IMO lines up nicely with what I've described.

Except frame of reference still has to be taken into account. If everything about Roshar itself were disconnected, both the planets motion and rotation would also be unaccounted for, and it would be impossible for Kaladin to fall in the relative direction he chose. He'd fly of on his tangent, while Roshar continued without him. 

[DocHoliday]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

Except frame of reference still has to be taken into account. If everything about Roshar itself were disconnected, both the planets motion and rotation would also be unaccounted for, and it would be impossible for Kaladin to fall in the relative direction he chose. He'd fly of on his tangent, while Roshar continued without him. 

Hmmm. Very good point.