20140317 - Without Honour - Chapter 8 [V]

[Robinski]

Okay, here’s Chapter 8. I am of course conscious of comments to date about rationale for holding Saffen captive – I’ll fix that in Edit No.1. I propose to extend a scene at Cross Paths Inn where she eavesdrops on Marnar and Gillus, and overhears their plans before they catch her. I'm not sure it’s a strong rationale, but I’ll work on it, she needs to hear something suitably damning. I’ve added to this chapter on that basis. On the plus side, there is only one setting in this chapter, although there are different viewpoints.

 

As promised, I'm going to stop submitting this now – have a break from it – then use your invaluable comments to edit the 17 chapters I’ve written, before pushing on to the end, then I’ll bung it in Alpha Readers if anyone’s interested.

 

Thank you for reading! Your help has been priceless.

 

Best, R

[andyk]

I've really enjoyed seeing what you're trying to do with this story, even if I've found plenty to criticise. It's been an interesting read, and if I had more time I'd join in the alpha readers and see more.

 

On this chapter, I'm just going to comment on the fight scene. My thoughts on the rest are much like my thoughts on your previous chapters.

 

So, the fight...

 

There's a lot of good stuff going on in this fight description. Lots of interesting little details and variety in what people are doing, which stops it getting repetitive. Saffen's use of the blanket and the fire to escape her bonds in particular showed her resourcefulness.

 

It's sometimes unclear exactly what's going on, an approach some authors deliberately use to evoke the confusion of combat, but I didn't get the impression that was what you were aiming for. As with other scenes, long sentences are probably the biggest problem. To evoke action you want to go even shorter than normal - break sentences up, really cut down on the adjectives and adverbs, let things get choppy and abrupt. I know that's not your style, but leaning more that way will help with action.

 

Once the fight started Marnar initially became focused on what the others were doing, not him, which seemed odd. I think that you can legitimately have Marnar's PoV only show what he's up to, and the same for the others. Out of necessity, people become quite focused in fights, and it'll help show that. Readers will be fine with finding out what the others did later.

 

Saffen's change of heart makes no sense to me at this point. Sudden changes of heart are good and dramatic, and I can see that you've been building towards this one, but I didn't think that it was legitimised enough either in the scene or in her being conflicted in her views beforehand. I could tell from the structure of the scene what she was going to do, but I didn't think it made sense.

 

Also, Teimen's the main named enemy we've got so far and you're killing him off? I was surprised, but not in a good way. I'd bought into the conflict with Teimen, and this left me with a feeling of 'where's the conflict going to come from now?'

[jagabond]

First time editing on my chromebook, and zoho docs bifurcates the map in so many ridiculous ways...

 

I have not lent my comments to all the chapters, have not had that thorough a time, but I also wish you the best, man. I believe in the story.

 

I will say that the exposition in the beginning is much better, like I've finally found the rhythm. I don't feel positively swamped in unnecessary detail.

 

Teimen seemed pretty cool, though I've no problem with him dying if it serves Saffen's turn. But you have a couple scenes where, as andy said, you could throw in some dialogue that supports it. Get the reader asking themselves, will she do it, and she clearly has reasons to do it and not to; if you highlight those right before the fight, you've got great tension that will lessen your need to have cool fight scene direction. The fighting was a little busy, yeah, but my eyes gloss over fight scenes these days anyway. I don't know how common that is, but it's rare to see a drawn-out battle that's important with every parry.

[Mandamon]

Much better than the last couple chapters.  We got some good progress, both physically and emotionally.  I'm also glad Teimen finally got killed off--it gives some more space for these characters to work in.  That said, I also see what andyk is saying.  I was assuming this is the end of the first section of the story, after which Marnar and Saffen are going to more directly confront the "higher powers" i.e. Kavyelan and co.

 

I like the action scenes, but the comma use puts me off.  It does give a sort of breathless sense to reading it, but also makes me wince grammatically.  As andyk says, shorter sentences are better.

 

From reading your notes, I realized you were putting Marnar and Saffen together, but I'm not sure I would have picked up on it as much reading on my own.  The relationship is in the very beginnings, but seems more as Marnar accepting another companion rather than anything romantic.  I also think of Marnar as a lot older than Saffen.  Not sure you've said anywhere or if I'm just making that up.

I think this leads into what the others are saying about her decision being too sudden.  I agree, even though I knew narratively it was the next step.

 

Overall, I think this needs to be more of what the book is like instead of some of the previous chapters.  I would even take out Gillus' POV.  We get enough of his actions from the other two seeing him, and we don't really need to know the rest.

 

Plus, narrowing this down to the important POVs (Marnar and Saffen's relationship) will give more importance where it's needed.  This can be applied to the rest of the story as well.  I know I harped on this already, but to make a final point (and get off my soapbox), every time you have a new POV, the reader has to mentally catalog all the relationships that character has.  It washes out the strength of the emotional attachment.  I wasn't really bothered by Teimen's death, even though he's had a POV.  If you only tell this from a few characters--Marnar, Saffen, Damiel, and maybe one other--you can really pump up their emotions and character development without making this a 1200 page book.  This also gives you more room to flesh out political and magical worldbuilding.

End soapbox...

 

Looking forward to the Alpha Readers version!

 

One strange wording:

pg 9: "The first had recovered, coming back at him, but not before he’d sliced the second’s sword arm, then leg ‘cause he can’t cross and gutted him"

--not sure if this is left over editing notes or something else.  Didn't quite understand this

[Robinski]

Thank you guys - I'll admit I was getting a bit discouraged after the last two chapters - and we all know why, you were quite right with the comments on those. I am also heartened that you found effective elements in this chapter. I was going for a breathless stream of punctuation kind of thing, but I'm willing to accept it maybe doesn't entirely work.

 

Thank you, Jaga, for the vote of confidence on the streamlined exposition - I think you might be a lone voice!  : o )

 

The mixed response on killing of Teimen is interesting. I take you point, Andy, that there isn't really a Big Bad. That was deliberate - none of your stinking dark lords here, just people with a different view on life, but there is a downside to that - probably because Kavyelan's role is not well enough defined. There should be a likely candidate among the Knights of Brekia, actually, just had an idea for an early reveal that might make Vekalik's section more interesting <...reaches for scribble pad>

 

Mandamon, always happy to listen to your proselytising. I will cut down the POV's. You've said before that you picture Marnar significantly older - I'm not sure what the others think - is it because he's got a beard? He's supposed to be older than Saffen, but not all that significantly, so I've miss sold that early on - more work for the red pencil.

 

Really enjoyed the exchange - thanks again for your patience. I'd love to think I could get an Alpha version up in 3 or 4 months - we shall see.

[jParker]

Yay! Vikings quench their bloodthirst! Thanks for that little gratification before heading back.

 

I concur with the comments on the action scene--shorter sentences, less description. However, when you do have a character notice something, it should be super vivid, adrenaline-fuelled sensation.

 

I did have a question as to why Saffen's bow was already strung--I'm far from a weapons expert, but I was/am under the impression that creates unnecessary stress. While that's certainly explainable--Saffen's not a weapons expert either--but personally, I'd like to see that come back and bite them hard. 

 

Similarly--and I realize this is a meta-comment and therefore bad writing-group form--but if Marnar was a mercenary/raider/third-party soldier, as his combat experience and words seem to indicate, what's he doing now? It's a really interesting revelation, but as soon as I start to think about it, I become perplexed. It doesn't feel well foreshadowed, at least to me. 

 

I have to say though, I'm substantially less concerned by Teimen's apparent death, largely because I don't believe any character's dead unless I'm explicitly told so. Thanks GRRM.

 

Which is a nice segue to my final comment: while Without Honour has definitely felt like a Nordic adaptation of A Song of Ice and Fire--a compliment, to be sure--Saffen's horror at the bloodshed is a really nice reinforcement. This is not a fireside tale of King and Country--this a stupid border dispute getting out of hand and it's messy as hell. Very General Lee.

 

And so while I'm sad to see Without Honour disappear from inbox for a while, I'm excited to see what it'll be the next time we meet. May you have great ideas and few distractions.

[Robinski]

Good comments, JP, expected nothing less and very glad to have them, as ever. And thank you for your kind words, which are great encouragement.

I'm sure you have not seen the last of Without Honour - it now becomes a test of my ability to work in isolation and regroup effectively. I'm setting myself the target of finishing by October, thereby having a clean slate for NaNo - best laid plans aft gang awry, etc. etc.

Thank you one and all!!

[manaheim]

I wrote this giant string of comments for you... and my wifi dropped. And then now this forum won't let me paste my comments back in (I managed to copy them beforehand).  I'll send them to you in email.

 

Is there some weird trick to pasting stuff here?

[Robinski]

Is there some weird trick to pasting stuff here?

 

It works for me, but I usually find there is a delay of about 5 seconds before my text appears - not sure what that is, but maybe it's the root of the problem? Anyway, I have your emails, many thanks for that. I have read your comments, but have still to look at the embedded notes. I can see what you are getting at, I'm glad the Marnar/Saffen exchanges worked for you, but completely accept the situation within the group needs tightening up - No.1 on my to-do list for sure.

 

I've always been a polisher. Up to now the chapters have been pretty much as written originally for NaNo, Chapter 8 was the first one that I edited before submitting, but it normally takes me several goes to get things into better shape, so your comments are well noted - thank you again.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Robinski

[manaheim]

My pleasure.  And speaking from the standpoint of someone who is now on like their eighth edit of Chapter 1... I totally get polishing.

 

Oh and thanks on the tips on pasting. I also wonder if it might be an IE thing. I'll have to futz with it more.

Edited March 30, 2014 by manaheim