Kelsier is involved with the ghostbloods

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

Keep in mind that this is all speculation. Below are some relevant WoB's which I will dive into later

1. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

The Ghostbloods. Are they Kelsier's new crew?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Oh, good question. Do I wanna answer this or not? I'm gonna RAFO this one. Yeah, we're gonna RAFO this one.

Billy Todd [PENDING REVIEW]

Have there been interactions between Kelsier and the Ghostbloods?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I will RAFO that.

 

 

2. ccstat

If Kelsier (when Vin knew him) were to join one of the Rosharan secret societies, which one would he choose?

Brandon Sanderson

He would become part of the Ghostbloods, most likely, and would be in charge of them within a year.

source

source

 

3. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, or no. With all of the cosmere books that have been put out, do we have enough information to deduce the Ghostbloods' motives?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Ummm... *laugher* I would say yes, but it's not like you are a fool if you haven't gotten it.

Robert Jordan once answered a question like this saying, "Well, the answer should be intuitively obvious to the casual observer." Which I never thought was fair. Like, no, it was not. Szeth, some people guessed it. And some people will guess this. A lot of the foreshadowing in my books, it's this weird thing where, when you do proper foreshadowing, and then people have three years between books, they're gonna figure some things out. Which presents a really interesting challenge to me as a writer, because, like, there are big things that get revealed in Oathbringer, that people who have been steeped in the world for the last seven years... they kinda knew this would happen. We get the beta readers, and they're like, "So? Doesn't everyone know that?" But at the same time, the casual reader, beta readers were like "Holy cow! This is a huge revelation!" And books need to work both for the person who has been really steeped in it, and the person who's reading along that maybe doesn't want to go get all the spoilers from all the fan guessing. So it is this weird balancing act that, as a writer, you have to perform, particularly with the longer books in the longer series, where you want to make sure they're engaging to the hardcore fan, but not overwhelming to the person who maybe hasn't reread the books since the last one came out. And I don't know that I have that balance figured out, but it is something I think about a lot...

source

 

Kelsier's motivations post Secret History:

After his interactions with Khriss and Nazh in Secret History, Kelsier realises just how little he really knows. Kelsier would see this ignorance as a weakness he must overcome, as to rise to the top he must acquire knowledge. Kelsier's conversation with Spook at the end of Secret History illustrate his quest to pursue knowledge of the cosmere.

“Now, don’t be like that,” Kelsier said. “Our work is important. Vital. We’re going to unravel the mysteries of the universe. The cosmere, as it is called.”
 

“It’s a big, big place out there, kid,” Kelsier said. “Bigger than I ever knew. Ignorance almost lost us everything. I’m not going to let that happen again.” He tapped at Spook’s ear. “While dead, I had an opportunity. My mind expanded, and I learned some things. My focus wasn’t on these spikes; I think I could have worked it all out, if it had been. I still learned enough to be dangerous, and the two of us are going to figure the rest out.”
 

If there is one thing we know about Kelsier, it is that he compulsively meddles. He would not be content to swear an oath of non-interference like the 17th shard members. We know from a WoB that the 17th shard and ghostbloods do not work together. Furthermore, Iyatil has South Scadrian ancestry and was a former member of the 17th shard. It is plausible that she converted to the ghostbloods after a little persuasion from the god figure of her ancestors. So the 17th shard does not fit Kelsier, leaving the ghostbloods as the only known worldhopper organisation with a similar agenda.

We know that Kelsier always feels the need to operate a crew. This is a constant between pre-Final Empire and post-Final Empire Kelsier, as shown when he treats Preservation/Fuzz as a crew member after determining his goal was to stop ruin and also at the end of Secret History when he recruits Spook. It is highly probable, then, that Kelsier post-Secret History has founded a new crew which is the ghostbloods.

 

So what exactly are the ghostbloods up to?

First of all, a minor piece of evidence linking the ghostbloods to Kelsier is the name of the organisation. Ghost= cognitive shadow, Blood= hemallurgy

Now, as shown above, Kelsier appears to be on a quest to gather cosmere knowledge. In Mraize's basement we see artifacts from many worlds, including a knife from Threnody (possibly the knife which Nazh gave to Kelsier in Secret History), a vial of white sand, a dye flower from Nalthis (tears of Edgli), possibly Royal Idrian locks and in a later scene we see Mraize with an aviar. This shows that the ghostbloods are collecting investiture related artifacts from numerous shardworlds. The collection of these artifacts would tie into Kelsier's pursuit of cosmeric knowledge.

Here's where things get a little crazy. I believe that Sja Anat has known Shallan since she was a child and is responsible for her forming a nahel bond so early in life before everything fell apart.

4. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Was Shallan's family, during her childhood, being influenced by an Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Um, yes.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Was it <the corrupt...>?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I'll RAFO that, but yes, there is some external influence there. 

source

 

5. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Why don't you have to say the words if you're just bonding a Cryptic?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Every Order's First Oath is the same. Then the Second Oaths for the Cryptics go into truths, but everybody says the First Oath the same regardless of Order. Which should raise the question of...

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Did [Shallan] say it when she was a teeny-weeny, like in the cradle?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That should raise a question. She wasn't teeny-weeny, but it should raise a question there.

source

This would tie in with the ghostbloods interest in Sja Anat, as she may be able to grant them nahel bonds in a similar fashion. This would add to their investiture collection. I see the situation as being similar to Hoid collecting investiture from different sources, though the end goals likely differ drastically.

6. Questioner

How would - just really generally - the Ghostbloods react if they found or met Hoid?

Brandon Sanderson

(laughs) They... Some people among them know of him.

Questioner

So they know he's around.

Brandon Sanderson

Some of them do, not everybody. But they are aware of his existence. At least in lore, they don't always... Not all of them have connected the King's Wit to this person's lore, does that make sense? So what would they know? They'd probably want to get him and interrogate him. They would want to know what he knows, but he is really slippery and it's hard to get out of him what he knows.

source

 

Conclusion: There is a realistic possibility that Kelsier has at least had involvement with the ghostbloods. This could potentially set up conflict between Hoid and Kelsier as they would have similar pursuits and really don't get along very well. We know that Secret History was in the works from as early as 2006 so Brandon clearly felt like he had not finished telling Kelsier's story. Maybe Shallan will finally meet the mysterious Thaidakar with heavily scarred arms.

Edited June 5, 2018 by The Harlem Worldhoppers

[Toaster Retribution]

This is interesting... I am not convinced, but you have done a good job (you found I bunch of WoBs I didn’t knew about, for start). 

I will have to think more about this. Have an upvote!

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

Thanks! I know there is only circumstantial evidence so far but I hope as we receive a Kelsier cameo in The Lost Metal next year that some light is shed on his motivations. We will also learn more about Sja Anat and the ghostbloods in Stormlight 4 due to Shallan's involvement so this theory will either become more concrete or shattered like Adonalsium over the next 2 years.

[Wandering Investor]

When I read the title, I was like "what, that's silly". But after reading the post, you might be on to something...

[+robardin]

I like your linking of Kelsier to them based on "Cognitive Shadow = Ghost, Hemalurgy = Blood", as whatever Kelsier is shown to have done to have "re-tied" himself to the Physical Realm is likely to involve hemalurgy.

He also has the approval or cooperation of Marsh in whatever he's up to, as when Marsh gives Marasi the proof copy of The Lord Mistborn's Guide To Hemalurgy (First Ed.):Spikes For The Placing, Wasing The Wanting Of Knowing, he comments that he wishes Wax to be informed of hemalurgy despite the wishes of Harmony, who nevertheless must allow him to do so, as Wax "does my brother's work, and that is something I feel inclined to encourage."

The idea of either or both Kelsier and Marsh being involved with the Ghostbloods is very intriguing.

 

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

32 minutes ago, robardin said:

I like your linking of Kelsier to them based on "Cognitive Shadow = Ghost, Hemalurgy = Blood", as whatever Kelsier is shown to have done to have "re-tied" himself to the Physical Realm is likely to involve hemalurgy.

He also has the approval or cooperation of Marsh in whatever he's up to, as when Marsh gives Marasi the proof copy of The Lord Mistborn's Guide To Hemalurgy (First Ed.):Spikes For The Placing, Wasing The Wanting Of Knowing, he comments that he wishes Wax to be informed of hemalurgy despite the wishes of Harmony, who nevertheless must allow him to do so, as Wax "does my brother's work, and that is something I feel inclined to encourage."

The idea of either or both Kelsier and Marsh being involved with the Ghostbloods is very intriguing.

 

Yeah, Kelsier has inquisitor vision in one eye and is described as having a spike in his eye by Ailik, the Southern Scadrian. Hemallurgy is definitely involved. It is possible however that Marsh is referencing Kelsier's work in The Final Empire as Marsh approved of the skaa rebellion and we don't know if he approves of Kelsier's goals post Secrer History. There's a WoB related to this somewhere.

Edit: Found the WoB's

1. Questioner

At the end of “Alloy of Law” Marsh tells Marasi he is giving the diary to Wax because “.. he does my brother's work”. At this time it was a reminder of Kelsier, but with Secret History and the third book out why does Marsh think we need someone to do his brother's work? Isn't Kelsier doing that himself?

Brandon Sanderson

Well. (laughs) Marsh is of multiple minds on what's happening with Kelsier at this time. When he's referencing his brother's work, he's specifically tells Marasi speaking to the lore of the Survivor. Like he's specifically talking to somebody, and he does believe this. He may not think that Kelsier is doing Kelsier's work anymore. But that depends on... You will see interaction between Marsh and Kelsier in the future.

source

 

2.Questioner

Does Marsh know about Kelsier's existence?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Ok. And are Marsh and him having like happy fun times together?

Brandon Sanderson

Kelsier and Marsh did not often have happy fun times. You can imagine if you want but, yeah.

source Edited June 5, 2018 by The Harlem Worldhoppers
Added some relevant WoB's

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

Marsh is of multiple minds on what's happening with Kelsier at this time. When he's referencing his brother's work, he's specifically tells Marasi speaking to the lore of the Survivor. Like he's specifically talking to somebody, and he does believe this. He may not think that Kelsier is doing Kelsier's work anymore. But that depends on... You will see interaction between Marsh and Kelsier in the future.

You just blew my mind.

That's what I love about this site, so many people with recall of WoB's that I may or may not have read at some point but didn't have something click at the right time, and now I get to go back and re-digest.

This speaks both to the level of detail Brandon's building in the Cosmere and the high Geek Factor of the fanbase

 

[Vissy]

I love the resurgence of Kelsier threads here... and likewise that blew my mind as well. I can't wait for the next Mistborn stuff.

 

EDIT - more evidence that Kelsier might have been on Roshar?

 

Quote

Glamdring804 [PENDING REVIEW]

In Way of Kings, Jasnah recommends to Shallan the Devotary of Sincerity. Their motto is "There is always something more to discover." That sounds very similar to our favorite Mistborn psychopath's saying; is Kelsier connected to that at all?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

RAFO.

source

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Vissy

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

Oh I forgot about the devotary of sincerity @Vissy. I think it's a guarantee that Kelsier has worldhopped. He tells Spook that he wants to uncover all the secrets in the cosmere, then he makes the bands and disappears. He wouldn't be content to sit still for nearly 300 years so when he disappeared it must have been off world. This is supported by Wax's conversation with Sazed where Sazed implies that he is no longer able to contact Kelsier. If Kelsier were on Scadrial at the time then Sazed could communicate via the hemallurgic spike in his eye. The only way he would be unable to contact Kelsier is if he was dead, which is impossible given he has a cameo in the lost metal, or that he is off world and out of communication range so to speak.

[RShara]

I just don't think Kelsier has been directly on Roshar. He's intrinsically incapable of keeping a low profile. If he'd been on Roshar, he would have done something, and definitely made a splash. And once he gets his fingers in a pie, he doesn't leave until he's eaten it.

Brandon's RAFOs can mean anything from "this is a significant secret that I can't reveal yet" to "I want to keep you guessing" to "TROLL ALERT". I wouldn't put too much into it.

Edited June 6, 2018 by RShara

[Vissy]

That's not strictly true, @RShara - Kelsier can keep a low profile when it suits him. What he's incapable of resisting is building some kind of a cult phenomenon around himself. Inspiring a Devotary might have been something he did, directly or indirectly. My guess isn't on Kelsier having personally been on Roshar (certainly not for any significant length of time), but rather his acolytes or affiliates having been / being there, working for him.

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

@RShara I think Kelsier is a little bit less egotistical and self-centered and possibly more empathetic post Secret History compared to The Final Empire. Having briefly held Preservation and having the heart to heart with Vin at the end of SH will have at least made a minor impact on his characterization. I agree that he will always be a bit egotistical but he is capable of keeping a low profile if it furthers his goals. 

His moonlighting as the Lord Ruler while saving the Southern Scadrians and making the bands in BoM along with the fact that the Northern Hemisphere who worship Kelsier himself were unaware of his antics suggests that he is fine with being secretive. We also have a WoB that Kelsier did not want anyone to know that he had been the one to create the bands and that Hoid was acting against him.

Viridian

Why did Hoid give the memory coin to Wax? What was his intention?

Brandon Sanderson

He thought that certain information was being kept, and certain lies were being perpetuated. And Hoid was a fan of that information being out.

Viridian

I'm still suspicious.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you should be suspicious of Hoid's motive. He and Kelsier do not get along. Let's just say... Kelsier did not want that information to get out.

source

 

If you come to the conclusion that Kelsier has worldhopped then Roshar is one of the most likely destinations. Roshar has been something of a worldhopper central with kandra and Demoux from scadrial appearing in minor roles and Vasher, Vivenna and Nightblood in potentially more influential roles. It is arguably the most investiture heavy shardworld we have seen so far and there is a plethora of wealth and knowledge to be gained from interested worldhopper parties. Given Kelsier's adamance in exploring the cosmere and gaining cosmeric knowledge to Spook at the end of SH, I think Kelsier would definitely be interested in events on Roshar. You are correct that Kelsier has probably not set foot on Roshar himself but his theoretical crew in the Ghostbloods are running ground operations there.

[Krios]

I just like to believe, that Mraize is just building up the Ghostbloods as an initiation to join Kelsier interplanetary cult. Think about it Kelsiers old crew operated with one primary member heading up a group of underlings, who never attended any meetings. Like Breeze and his soothers and rioters or Hamm and his thugs. So it would make sense, that Kelsier would apply the same template to his cosmere cult. Also Mraize still needs a babsk to go off-planet, which seems out of place given that he is a certified badass (probably). He could definitvly go off-world and not immediatly die. So maybe the supervision through Iaytil is to keep him from seeing to much.

[Gasper]

This....mindblowing. We know, from Secret History, that Kelsier is aware of other worlds. It would make sense that he goes to Roshar to check it out and seek new information. It also makes sense that the Ghostbloods are his crew on that planet, and possibly beyond. Also, he might not be wearing the eyespike all the time. Kelsier is a guy who can go from being an attention hog to ghosting in a very short amount of time. He is also known for using misdirection to confuse his opponents. Given that it is likely that he has both allomantic and feruchemical powers after his return to the physical realm as evidenced by his creation of the Bands of Mourning, and that he seems to have gained a detailed knowledge of hemalurgy, he might have stolen a few other powers along the way to help his blend in. Which would explain why stories of a tall blond man with scars and spike through his eye have not shown up on Roshar. 

The Ghostbloods seem to fit his MO pretty well, they work in the shadows, have fairly vast resources, and have eyes everywhere. Not to mention that recruiting teenagers to act as spies also fits Kelsier's MO, i.e. Vin, Spook, Shallan, Shallan's brother. The South Scadrian is also evidence, as mentioned above, because she would most likely have unwavering loyalty to the man who saved her people. That would make her an excellent right hand woman to run things on Roshar when Kelsier has other things to deal with. I think that Kelsier has started the Ghostbloods because he is looking at the bigger picture and sees that Odium is a threat, but also there are other shards and beings of power out there that might be a threat. 

The Ghostbloods having a base in the war camps, but not in a main war camp with large amounts of security, also points to Kelsier. Notice that it mirrors Kelsiers base outside of Luthadel. Close enough to have an impact but far enough away to not be noticed. 

[The One Who Connects]

2 hours ago, Krios said:

I just like to believe, that Mraize is just building up the Ghostbloods as an initiation to join Kelsier interplanetary cult.

A Society of Secret Societies. Wouldn't exactly be the first time someone's tried something like that in fiction, so I could see this.

[Leyrann]

Someone should ask Brandon whether Thaidakar is often late...

[Naurock]

 

On 6/5/2018 at 3:48 AM, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

Here's where things get a little crazy. I believe that Sja Anat has known Shallan since she was a child and is responsible for her forming a nahel bond so early in life before everything fell apart.

4. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Was Shallan's family, during her childhood, being influenced by an Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Um, yes.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Was it <the corrupt...>?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I'll RAFO that, but yes, there is some external influence there. 

This is where you lose me. I don't believe Sja Anat can grant Nahel bonds, and it's been discussed on the forum about the Unmade influence in his family is probably Ashertmarn. Stoking the fury and drinking in her father, cruelty in her brother and gambling.

I really like everything else, though.

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

Thanks @Naurock, any feedback is appreciated.I made a separate post digging  into the Sja Anat angle to flesh it out a bit more.

 

[Thurin]

Quote

AllomancerSam [PENDING REVIEW]

If given the opportunity, which Shard would Kelsier want to punch next?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He would find it really fun to punch Honor. Really fun.

I can think of only 2 reasons why Kelsier would want to punch Honor specifically:

1. Kelsier hates the nobility, and Honor could be related to the nobility from a certain point of view.

Or

2. Perhaps Kelsier punched Preservation and Ruin/Ati to check if they were real (at least that is how I see it). The Ghostbloods are active on Roshar, Honor's planet, so maybe their/Kelsier's goal is to restore the Shard Honor or something like that, and being able to punch Honor in the face would mean that Honor was a complete Shard once again, and that his/their goal was completed.

I know this is far-fetched, but I wanted to mention the second (possible) reason anyway

[Herowannabe]

Just stumbled across this thread. @The Harlem Worldhoppers I think you might be on to something here...

By way of further evidence:

• one of the prominent members of the Ghostbloods is Iyatil, who presumably outranks Mraize.
• Iyatil is of Southern Scadrian lineage.
• And who is it that the Southern Scadrians revere and worship?
• 

 

[Fatikis]

9 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

Just stumbled across this thread. @The Harlem Worldhoppers I think you might be on to something here...

By way of further evidence:

• one of the prominent members of the Ghostbloods is Iyatil, who presumably outranks Mraize.
• Iyatil is of Southern Scadrian lineage.
• And who is it that the Southern Scadrians revere and worship?
• 

 

A Scadrian being a member of the Ghostbloods is not evidence that Kelsier is connected to them. Iyatil isn't even from Scadrial. She also was a member of the 17th shard prior to becoming a Ghostblood.

Even by your connection logic the real connection would be her parents as at least one of them is from Scadrial and could have had a connection to Kelsier. While it is extremely unlikely that it has anything to do with Kelsier, Iyatil's parents were probably in the 17th shard as Iyatil is from Silverlight. So by your logic Kelsier is involved in the 17th shard and not The Ghostbloods.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Fatikis

[Herowannabe]

2 hours ago, Fatikis said:

A Scadrian being a member of the Ghostbloods is not evidence that Kelsier is connected to them. Iyatil isn't even from Scadrial. She also was a member of the 17th shard prior to becoming a Ghostblood.

Even by your connection logic the real connection would be her parents as at least one of them is from Scadrial and could have had a connection to Kelsier. While it is extremely unlikely that it has anything to do with Kelsier, Iyatil's parents were probably in the 17th shard as Iyatil is from Silverlight. So by your logic Kelsier is involved in the 17th shard and not The Ghostbloods.

I’m just saying that if Kelsier were in charge of the Ghostbloods then it would all fit together. I know that Iyatil was born in silverlight, but that’s irrelevant. The revering of the Sovereign is tied to culture, not birthplace. Iyatil is southern Scadrian by heritage and by culture. 

I’m not saying it’s proof, but it is one more piece of evidence.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Herowannabe

[Fatikis]

1 minute ago, Herowannabe said:

I’m just saying that if Kelsier were in charge of the Ghostbloods then it would all fit together. I know that Iyatil was born in silverlight, but that’s irrelevant. The revering of the Sovereign is tied to culture, not birthplace. Iyatil is southern Scadrian by heritage and by culture. 

I’m not saying it’s proof, but it is one more piece of evidence.

We have no idea how Iyatil was raised and have no reason to suspect she reveres the Sovereign. In fact being a worldhopper she more than likely does not revere the Sovereign as she has a greater understanding of the cosmere. It is 100% not evidence. It is seeing strings you want to see.
 

[Vissy]

If anything, the 17th Shard would have an interest in gaining members acquainted with South Scadrians due to the time Kelsier spent there. The 17th Shard does not like Kelsier.

[Leyrann]

2 hours ago, Fatikis said:

A Scadrian being a member of the Ghostbloods is not evidence that Kelsier is connected to them. Iyatil isn't even from Scadrial. She also was a member of the 17th shard prior to becoming a Ghostblood.

Even by your connection logic the real connection would be her parents as at least one of them is from Scadrial and could have had a connection to Kelsier. While it is extremely unlikely that it has anything to do with Kelsier, Iyatil's parents were probably in the 17th shard as Iyatil is from Silverlight. So by your logic Kelsier is involved in the 17th shard and not The Ghostbloods.

It may not be the strongest piece of evidence, but it sure as hell isn't an argument against the theory.