IntentAwesome

[OB] Nomon: The Sibling

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I think this is brilliant. Really well done theory. I subscribe to this now! 

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Wow!

that is one great theory, I fully support it, it just makes sense on so many level, good job.

 

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Huh, I thought there'd be more discussion on this. Guess my theory is just 100% correct. :lol:

But, more seriously, I've been thinking a little more about this. Not to poke holes in my own theory (ok, I'm totally poking holes), but I've been thinking of other possible interpretations of the paintings in Urithiru. 

One thought I've had (and I'm still not sure it totally fits), is that it really is Ishar in the depiction. Nale believes he's the only one of the Heralds who joined his own order, but what if he's wrong? If so, then maybe Ishar did bond a spren and his idea to betray Taln and the Oathpact may have damaged the Sibling.

Or, another possibility, is that the stormcloud and tree woman really are Honor and Cultivation. In which case, what is the third depiction? My thought is that maybe it isn't the moons of Roshar, but instead, a depiction of the Rosharan planets: Braize, Ashyn, Roshar. Seem possible, since we know that Roshar used to be more cosmere-aware. But then who is the man? The only thing I can come up with is some depiction of Adonalsium. Which over time may have later been re-appropriated to depict Ishar. If so, no wonder he thinks he's a god. :P

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I wonder if this could have anything to do with Aimia. In the story that Wit tells about Nomon and the queen and everything, he says that this an explanation of why the people of that place had blue tinted skin, kind of like Aimians? It might explain why they are considered to be kind of unholy, and we know that they must have some kind of abilities because the aimian that is encountered on the Reshi Isle is all tied up but it is said that he's only there because he wants to be there, and he could escape easily. We know that something big happened over there that hasn't been explained yet, with how Aimia was destroyed and for some reason there are the huge soulcast stone walls that had to be turned to smoke to gain access. There was some destructive event that took place there as well as Natanatan and the Shattered plains. It's even possible that the two events aren't separate events but one. With Oathgates in both New Natanatan and Aimia, it's possible that the third godspren or whatever caused the destruction in Natanatan may have moved through to Aimia to hide. It would explain the soulcast walls, which could have been the radiants trying to protect it or something. And that crazy cook crab person who killed the Smoke Soulcasting Savant could just be some manifestation of the power of the third godspren, or something like the spren trying to defend it. If I remember right, the cook said something along the lines that there is something in Aimia that should not be found or rediscovered. I don't know. That was an awesome theory though. Makes a lot more sense than the mess that I was able to come up with. I'm still kind of confused about the last sibling though, because Stormfather is the Godspren of honor, and Nightwatcher is supposedly the godspren of Cultivation, so is the last sibling the godspren of another god? Or is it just another incredibly powerful spren that is for some reason capable of creating a bondsmith? Because the only other god that it could be a spren of is Odium. Unless there is just a second spren of the first two. But that doesn't seem right to me. So where would this third Bondsmith Spren come from? And I don't think the whole Ishar thing could really be viable, because we know he is the God-King of Tukar, and none of the other Heralds were capable of the mass destruction that occurred in  Natanatan and Aimia. There's no reason to believe that he's more powerful than the others. Any of them would be the leaders and "God kings and queens" of whatever countries they decided to reveal themselves and their abilities and immortality to. The heralds are generally depicted as gods anyways. 

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7 hours ago, IntentAwesome said:

Or, another possibility, is that the stormcloud and tree woman really are Honor and Cultivation. In which case, what is the third depiction? My thought is that maybe it isn't the moons of Roshar, but instead, a depiction of the Rosharan planets: Braize, Ashyn, Roshar. Seem possible, since we know that Roshar used to be more cosmere-aware. But then who is the man? The only thing I can come up with is some depiction of Adonalsium. Which over time may have later been re-appropriated to depict Ishar. If so, no wonder he thinks he's a god. :P

It's entirely possible that the three images are of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium.  We don't know much about the...religion, or whatever you want to call it, of the old Radiants, but if you've got three gods, it's entirely possible that you want to honor all three gods, even if one of them happens to be a somewhat evil god.  For an in-Roshar example, think of the people of the Purelake.  For a real-world example, think of Loki, Hel, or Hades/Pluto.

The cloud could be either Honor (the Highstorm) or Odium (the Thrill, or any number of other possibilities), and the man could easily be the other, depending on your interpretation of the blue sphere.

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This is a valid point. There are plenty of religions that worship a variety of gods, including ones that are less than benevolent. I hadn't thought of that. But is there anything about the depiction itself that you think represents Odium?

I still think it's unlikely that the Radiants would portray Odium in a mural in conjunction with spren that are most likely associated with Radiance, rather than Voidbinding. Especially considering they were likely at war with Odium and the Singers at the time the mural was created.

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Great theory! Makes a lot of sense, and well thoughtout imo. But I've been thinking the Sibling is.... well ok, so both Honor and Cultivation have a God Spren, so I would think Odium has one too. He was recognized as a God long enough by enough people that he has to, realistically, with how Roshar works in regards to Spren. However I'm in line with the idea that the KR wouldn't bond with that Spren. I think the Sibling is people's perception of Odiums God Sprem like the brother/ sister of it. 

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Huh, this is pretty good. Haven't seen a theory this solid in a while, it makes me happy.

I think you are definitely onto something with the Urithiru paintings of what we assume are the Bondsmith spren. Somehow I always read that passage as the first two sentences belonging together ("A solitary figure hovering above the ground before a large blue disc, arms stretched to the side as if to embrace it. Depictions of the Almighty in his traditional form as a cloud bursting with energy and light." and then  "A woman in the shape of a tree, hands spreading toward the sky and becoming branches."). I never liked how those first two sentences fit together, but I think I got stuck in thinking that we see depictions of the Honor and Cultivation, when depictions of the Bondsmith spren makes much more sense now.

The connection between the destruction of Stormseat and the retreat of the Sibling is also an uncanny one, though there may be problems with it hidden in the annals of history. Jasnah, I believe, says she believes that Stormseat was destroyed during the Last Desolation, but the Sibling didn't starting pulling away until the False Desolation; of course, Jasnah could be wrong about this, since information about the Desolations is scarce and prone to errors anyway. 

Honestly, I just find myself agreeing with a lot of what you are saying. I might try to prod Brandon next time I see him, see if I can get him to confirm some parts of this. 

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9 minutes ago, Argent said:

Jasnah, I believe, says she believes that Stormseat was destroyed during the Last Desolation,

It's actually Navani who said that. (Thank you again, Fulminato)

Quote

Navani held up the page. “You’re trying to overlay Stormseat with the Shattered Plains. It’s not going to work unless you have a point of reference.”
“Preferably two,” Shallan said.
“It’s been centuries since that city fell. It was destroyed during Aharietiam itself, I believe. We’re going to have trouble finding clues out here, though your list of descriptions will help.” She tapped her finger against the papers. WoR Chapter 77 "trust"

But like you say, there have been too many info losses since then for us to be certain whether or not she's right.

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This is good stuff OP. I've seen a few bits and pieces before. I've seen a comparison drawn between the Bondsmith spren and the moons. But this is the first thing I've seen which puts it all together in a nice way.

I particularly like the notion that the Natan people (and/or the Aimians) are related to the decline of the Sibling.

You pointed out the moons in the background of the Ishar painting. Even more interesting to me is the fact that the moons appear in Jezrien and Vedel's paintings. If you look at Jezrien's belt buckle and the stained glass window behind Vedel you'll see the 10 orders/essences represented. Look closer and you'll see 3 circles that are the color of the moons, and positioned roughly at the time they rise (if the greater circle were a clock). So they definitely represent the moons, and I think it's interesting that they are included in these icons associated with the Heralds and the Knights Radiant.

I'm left frustrated by what we do with Salas and Mishim. I've seen someone propose that each Bondsmith spren is associated with a moon, which I don't really like. Other than the stretch that Mishim is green and mischievous (Nightwatcher-like), I just don't see strong evidence for this. After talking on Discord, I think I like the idea that all of the moons have a spren, and then Nomon's was sort of elevated due to Cognitive reasons (the way people/singers thought about it, etc.), Shardic intervention, and/or Spiritual reasons (Connection to Aimians/Natans, for example). Then its decline was just sort of a reverse of this change. The other moons have unique spren as well. They just never reached the same tier as Nomon.

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First of all, I don't think you should be connecting Ishar or the Sibling to the mural seen in Oathbringer. There are some similarities between the Ishar painting and the Urithiru mural, but the Ishar endsheet, in-universe, is the work of Dandos the Oilsworn:

Quote

Blightsong

Who drew [the Oathbringer endpapers]? Are they in-world art?

Brandon Sanderson

These are in world paintings done by the Oilsworn, one of the people Shallan studied when practicing her art. The actual paintings were done by the Oilsworn's real-world counterpart, Dan Dos Santos, who did the cover of Warbreaker.

There are two more pieces in the back, done by someone else, which are also in-world art pieces. They're all part of a larger theme, and are equally gorgeous.

Phantine

I assume these are paintings of heralds, then?

Brandon Sanderson

These two [in the front of the book] are Ishar and Ash. The back two are Jezrien and Vedel.

ConvolutedBoy

Ash is so much more...shiny than I expected, but I guess that's Lightweaving for you. I love the space background too.

Brandon Sanderson

Remember, these are in-world artifacts. So this is how someone painted her from their imagination, based on lore. These are Rosharan versions of the paintings of the prophets along the top of the Sistine Chapel.

And Dandos lived and painted well after Urithiru was abandoned. From Way of Kings chapter 7:

Quote

“Practice,” Shallan said. “I should suspect that is how everyone learns, eventually.”

“Wise words again. I am beginning to wonder which of us it the ardent. But surely you had a master to teach you.”

“Dandos the Oilsworn.”

“Ah, a true master of pencils if there ever was one. Now, not that I doubt your word, Brightness, but I’m rather intrigued how Dandos Heraldin could have trained you in arts, as—last I checked—he’s suffering a rather terminal and perpetual ailment. Namely, that of being dead. For three hundred years.”

But the mural does very much resemble something from Chapter 25 of Elantris:

Spoiler
Quote

“Over there,” Karata said, pointing at the far end of the rectangular room, where the wall held only a single mural. It depicted a large mirrorlike blue oval. An Elantrian stood facing the oval, his arms outstretched and his eyes closed. He appeared to be flying toward the blue disk. The rest of the wall was black, though there was a large white sphere on the other side of the oval.

“Lake.” The old Elantrian’s voice was quiet but insistent.

“It’s painted sideways,” Karata realized. “See, he’s falling into a lake.”

Raoden nodded. The Elantrian in the picture wasn’t flying, he was falling. The oval was the surface of a lake, lines on its sides depicting a shore.

“It’s like the water was considered a gate of some sort,” Galladon said, head cocked to the side.

This is a reference to worldhopping, using the perpendicularity as a portal. With a near-identical description in Oathbringer, in a center of magical power for the most Invested people on the planet, I think it's a depiction of the ancient Rosharans' knowledge of worldhopping, not a depiction of the moons or the Heralds.

Furthermore, I think a careful analysis of the quote you open with excludes the first three murals from the rest of them. This is Shallan's point of view, and she thinks the Storm/Tree imagery are referring to the Almighty and to the pagan god (Cultivation, who has been referred to as a pagan western god). She doesn't revise that view later - she sees "other murals" which comprise "ten kinds" of spren. With no indication that she revised her initial impression, she's not including the first three murals in the "kinds of spren" set, because we haven't seen her think that the first set she saw was depicting spren.

The last thing that gives me pause is the Shattered Plains/Last Legion timeline. There is, of course, a lot of details we don't know, but at the time the Parshendi abandoned their gods, Natanatan had already been destroyed. And since the gods were there, this must have predated Aharietiam. (We did not see the Fused return in the False Desolation; I don't think it's possible that they did, since Taln hadn't broken then.) If you're going to connect the Sibling's retreat to the destruction of Natanatan, it's going to have to be a slow process over several thousand years (if I'm remembering my timelines right; I'm thinking the Recreance is roughly halfway between Aharietiam and WoK, about 2000 years before the present time).

So, points for style, and a lot of the moon-related questions you bring up are indeed head-scratchers. But I disagree with the foundation of the idea, that the Sibling is depicted in the blue-disc mural.

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6 hours ago, Argent said:

The connection between the destruction of Stormseat and the retreat of the Sibling is also an uncanny one, though there may be problems with it hidden in the annals of history. Jasnah, I believe, says she believes that Stormseat was destroyed during the Last Desolation, but the Sibling didn't starting pulling away until the False Desolation; of course, Jasnah could be wrong about this, since information about the Desolations is scarce and prone to errors anyway. 

The timeline is one thing that I didn't research in depth with this. However, I believe Brandon has said repeatedly that Honor's death wasn't an instantaneous thing. I believe that the death or slumbering of an important and powerful spren wouldn't be instantaneous either. Certainly it would take time for the people's perceptions to change enough to drastically change the spren itself, wouldn't it? Decades at least. I don't think centuries is entirely unreasonable.

4 hours ago, Jofwu said:

I'm left frustrated by what we do with Salas and Mishim. I've seen someone propose that each Bondsmith spren is associated with a moon, which I don't really like. Other than the stretch that Mishim is green and mischievous (Nightwatcher-like), I just don't see strong evidence for this. After talking on Discord, I think I like the idea that all of the moons have a spren, and then Nomon's was sort of elevated due to Cognitive reasons (the way people/singers thought about it, etc.), Shardic intervention, and/or Spiritual reasons (Connection to Aimians/Natans, for example). Then its decline was just sort of a reverse of this change. The other moons have unique spren as well. They just never reached the same tier as Nomon.

I agree. I'm not sure how Salas and Mishim fit into this. I couldn't really find any lore that referred to them. The best I could find is that the Shin refer to the moons as sisters, and the Stormfather referring to the Sibling in the plural. I like your idea that Nomon's spren was just more elevated. It does seem to be the most prominent moon, in size and in folklore.

3 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

First of all, I don't think you should be connecting Ishar or the Sibling to the mural seen in Oathbringer. There are some similarities between the Ishar painting and the Urithiru mural, but the Ishar endsheet, in-universe, is the work of Dandos the Oilsworn

I don't really think that Ishar is the person depicted in the Urithiru painting, I was just presenting that as a possibility given it's similarity. I do think it's possible, however, that the iconography has changed over time given it's similarity to the end cover we have. An image that once depicted the Bondsmith spren in Urithiru might have been appropriated and, by the time of Dandos the Oilsworth, was a common image to represent the herald Ishar.

3 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

But the mural does very much resemble something from Chapter 25 of Elantris:

  Reveal hidden contents

This is a reference to worldhopping, using the perpendicularity as a portal. With a near-identical description in Oathbringer, in a center of magical power for the most Invested people on the planet, I think it's a depiction of the ancient Rosharans' knowledge of worldhopping, not a depiction of the moons or the Heralds.

Furthermore, I think a careful analysis of the quote you open with excludes the first three murals from the rest of them. This is Shallan's point of view, and she thinks the Storm/Tree imagery are referring to the Almighty and to the pagan god (Cultivation, who has been referred to as a pagan western god). She doesn't revise that view later - she sees "other murals" which comprise "ten kinds" of spren. With no indication that she revised her initial impression, she's not including the first three murals in the "kinds of spren" set, because we haven't seen her think that the first set she saw was depicting spren.

You make some good points. But even if you disassociate the three murals from the group of ten, there still seems to be a strong connection among the three. Based on what we've seen, the storm cloud is either a depiction of Honor or the Stormfather. The tree woman is either Cultivation or Nightwatcher. I don't think it's a stretch to say that much. So if it is Stormfather and Nightwatcher, logically it makes sense the third is the Sibling. If on the other hand, it's Honor and Cultivation (and honestly, the description of the tree woman matches Cultivation more than it does Nightwatcher), then what is the third? 

Spoiler

I hadn't considered that it represented a shardpool and worldhopping.

I haven't read Elantris in a long time, but I do remember that quote. You're right. It's very similar. If that's the case, then I don't think it ties in as well with the other two, but maybe it wasn't supposed to.

I actually think the best argument against the Bondsmith spren theory is that Shallan notices ten other spren in a group together, which would presumably include the Bondsmith spren already, since otherwise it would have to be nine and the three. But I can also imagine the Radiants including the gloryspren, in addition to the Bondsmith spren, just to avoid the number nine.

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10 hours ago, Jofwu said:

I'm left frustrated by what we do with Salas and Mishim. I've seen someone propose that each Bondsmith spren is associated with a moon, which I don't really like. Other than the stretch that Mishim is green and mischievous (Nightwatcher-like), I just don't see strong evidence for this. After talking on Discord, I think I like the idea that all of the moons have a spren, and then Nomon's was sort of elevated due to Cognitive reasons (the way people/singers thought about it, etc.), Shardic intervention, and/or Spiritual reasons (Connection to Aimians/Natans, for example). Then its decline was just sort of a reverse of this change. The other moons have unique spren as well. They just never reached the same tier as Nomon.

Cusicech and an unknown spren.

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2 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Cusicech and an unknown spren.

This is a good point. Cusicech is following a pattern of some sorts, which could relate to the moons orbits/phases/whatever (I suck at astronomy and physics). But anyhow, the moon connection could certainly explain some of Cusicechs oddities. 

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On 6/6/2018 at 2:12 PM, Ashspren said:

@KalaDANG your name alone gets you an upvote...

Haha @Ashspren you're too kind. Please, take this upvote.

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what if the child of Nomon is the first bondsmith to bond the Sibling? not hugely signifigant, but it could work... 

 

What if the shattering of the plains and the Scouring of Aimia were odium trying to damage the Radiants through the Sibling, leading to the destructions of The Sibling's various "homes"

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I like this theory. I do want to point out that the man with arms outstretched under a blue disc sounds a lot like this depiction of Ishar from the Oathbringer endpages. He's not hovering, but he is above others and the other details fit. He is the patron of the bondsmiths and the Herald who was directly involved with the forming/organizing of the Radiant orders. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ishar

He would have a special place among the radiants and as the Bondsmith Herald it makes sense to show him alongside the two bondsmith spren. Even if that is Ishar, that doesn't mean your theory is incorrect. The third Sibling could be connected to the moon Nomon. Why is the patron of the bondsmiths depicted with this particular moon? Seems like a hint and along with the story Wit's story points towards this moon being important. 

Image result for Ishar Oathbringer painting

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Well I'm in love with this topic. :wub:   Amazing job on the theory, those moons make me crazy.

I agree with some have said that Aimia might tie into this idea as well....Blue moons, blue skin, blue veins, etc.  Maybe Aimia's a portal to Nomon? Or a fallen chunk of Nomon?

 

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