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Xaladin

[OB] Hoed

12 posts in this topic

So, it appears that the whole Hoed mantra thing is Cosmere-significant, and

//it's been 6 months since Oathbringer release, but I don't know how the Spoiler rules have changed, etc.

Spoiler

it also shows up on Roshar. We have seen Taln's mantra in WoR, and it appears the Fused also have the same malady going on.

I have included someone else's theory in a link below. I don't actually believe that theory, but it contains relevant information:

Perhaps being Hoed is related to Savantism somehow?

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I believe it is just the insanity, in Taln's case and the Elantrians, it is from pain.

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It's not unusual for an extremely traumatized or mentally ill person to hold on to and repeat the same series of words constantly.

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3 minutes ago, RShara said:

It's not unusual for an extremely traumatized or mentally ill person to hold on to and repeat the same series of words constantly.

I can see that. Though the fact that every (every?) Elantrian who is pushed over the edge has a mantra suggests to me something significant.

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2 hours ago, Xaladin said:

I can see that. Though the fact that every (every?) Elantrian who is pushed over the edge has a mantra suggests to me something significant.

That likely has to deal with the fact that the Elantrian's cannot die and are essentially forced to maintain consciousness, but due to the pain have no room for conscious thought. So the last thought they had before going Hoed is repeated over and over.

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And maybe the same thing goes on for Fused. I don't really know what happens in Braize, but if they are so desperate to break the Heralds and return to Roshar the might also suffer from some kind of pain there (I just thought  of this now, so it's probably wrong). 

52 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

That likely has to deal with the fact that the Elantrian's cannot die and are essentially forced to maintain consciousness, but due to the pain have no room for conscious thought. So the last thought they had before going Hoed is repeated over and over.

I think it's because of this. I read somewhere that if you were being tortured the best thing to do is to say a lie repeatedly, that way, when you're numb with pain, you'll still be saying the same thing. Probably the same thing is applied here, the Elantrians and Taln are undergoing or have undergone so much pain that the only way to remain conscious is to repeat the most simple thought over and over

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I wonder if it took longer for the Heralds though, because Elantris was only out of commission for like 10 years, and the heralds were tortured for thousands upon thousands of years, so it surprises me that none of the others have gone Hoed.... Maybe the Oathpact made them stronger?

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19 minutes ago, npi2015 said:

the Elantrians and Taln are undergoing or have undergone so much pain that the only way to remain conscious is to repeat the most simple thought over and over

Not quite what I meant. I meant the Elantrians don't have an option to lose consciousness. It appears the only way for them to do so is to fall asleep, which they cannot do while in so much pain. So the Hoed physically can't become unconscious. But buried under a mountain of pain they can't think either.

Taln's condition is slightly different. In his scenario, his body is capable of healing himself, and the pain as (probably?) stopped, but his mind was broken quite thoroughly. So even though the pain is gone, what little mind was left was barely able to function. But as for the Hoed, its likely that if the pain stopped, they'd return to somewhat normal if worse for wear, as shown by Spirit. Taln's condition would probably be more similar to the broken Elantrians that served... forgot her name, but the animalistic ones. In those ones, something broke.

9 minutes ago, Brassweaver19 said:

I wonder if it took longer for the Heralds though, because Elantris was only out of commission for like 10 years, and the heralds were tortured for thousands upon thousands of years, so it surprises me that none of the others have gone Hoed.... Maybe the Oathpact made them stronger?

That depends a lot on how exactly they were tortured. The Hoed can receive life threatening wounds without the dying. But it is unknown what form the Heralds took on Braize. But yeah, I'd say the Heralds are probably a lot tougher due to natural stability, they were chosen on purpose, and due to their abilities.

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11 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

That depends a lot on how exactly they were tortured. The Hoed can receive life threatening wounds without the dying. But it is unknown what form the Heralds took on Braize. But yeah, I'd say the Heralds are probably a lot tougher due to natural stability, they were chosen on purpose, and due to their abilities.

True, plus I feel like the Elantrians were probably actively experiencing more pain as well, since the pain was kind of compounding. 

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Just now, Brassweaver19 said:

True, plus I feel like the Elantrians were probably actively experiencing more pain as well, since the pain was kind of compounding. 

Sorry, I should have expanded. The Elantrian's ability to suffer without dying means no resets. Every wound adds up and never stops. But the heralds might reset/die/heal. It depends on what form the heralds take, to understand what kind of torture they can experience.

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3 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

Sorry, I should have expanded. The Elantrian's ability to suffer without dying means no resets. Every wound adds up and never stops. But the heralds might reset/die/heal. It depends on what form the heralds take, to understand what kind of torture they can experience.

Kalak's recollection in the Prelude suggests that they do heal from whatever they experience and very quickly.

Quote

Kalak felt something within him break at the admission. How long had it been? Centuries, perhaps millennia, of torture. It was so hard to keep track. Those fires, those hooks, digging into his flesh anew each day. Searing the skin off his arm, then burning the fat, then driving to the bone. He could smell it. Almighty, he could smell it!

So we can hypothesize that whatever they experience during their tortures between Desolations can be healed from (my guess is that as Cognitive Shadows, their CR 'body' probably reforms to match their Spiritual ideal once the active torture stops) but it repeats over and over until they break and from that description we can assume that what happens to them is really nasty.

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I think that the reason that all Elantrians that are Hoed repeat the same phrase is that they are heavily influenced by the lingering effect of Devotion's power. Upon going insane, many seem to repeat what they had seen as most important the moment they became Hoed, like Raoden saying that he failed Sarene, the Hoed, pre-Reod Elantrian talking about how beautiful they once were, and Saolin talking about how he failed Raoden. 

I believe that Talenels mantra about the Desolations comes from the constant torture breaking his mind to the point that he was trapped in his memories, and his body was just speaking the words by instinct. His body may heal, but his mind, and the memory of the torture would remain.

Anyways, Cool theory!

-Wolfe

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