Llarimar

[OB] Cultivation's Vessel Name is Important

25 posts in this topic

I know that there has been a lot of speculation as to what the name of Cultivation's Vessel is.  The fact that we do not know the name of her Vessel yet is to me extremely suspicious, because of the Shards that we know, practically all of their names have been revealed.  This is a comprehensive list as far as I know...

 

Preservation - Leras

Ruin - Ati

Devotion - Aona

Dominion- Skai

Endowment - Edgli

Ambition - Uli Da

Autonomy - perhaps Trell (or perhaps Trell is one of Autonomy's avatars...) - actually I just looked this up to be sure and her name is Bavadin apparently (not sure where we learned that...)

Honor - Tanavast

Odium - Rayse

Cultivation - ????

 

So why don't we know the name of Cultivation's Vessel?  Because the thing is, knowing the names of all of the other Vessels doesn't really tell us anything that interesting about them - it's not that big a secret what the name of Odium, is for example.  Learning that Honor is Tanavast or Ambition is Uli Da is just interesting information, it doesn't really pull together any cosmere threads or give us the answers to any big RAFOs.  

This has led me to believe that Cultivation's shard name is important somehow.  Why else wouldn't we know it?  Is Brandon just withholding this information to be mysterious, or is there some deeper reason?  We know the name of Ambition's Vessel from Threnody, and all we have seen from the planet of Threnody is one short story that probably isn't very significant to the larger cosmere, whereas we have three gigantic volumes from the Stormlight Archive, with Cultivation being mentioned in all three and even appearing in Oathbringer, and we still don't know her name.  At this point, I might be a little bit annoyed if her name had zero cosmere significance, just because it's been teased for so long.

My immediate thought is that her name is either Senna or Reya, because those are the only ambiguous female names floating around that could have some cosmere significance.  However, Brandon has confirmed that Reya is not Cultivation's name, as shown by THIS COMMENT on a thread from 2014 (which shows how long we've been discussing this dilemma).  There is also the possibility that her name is Senna, which is a name that Preservation just mindlessly mutters to himself in Secret History.  Senna is discussed in THIS thread from 2016, but the impression I get is that Senna is important to Leras as a person, but not necessarily a god herself, and therefore not likely Cultivation.

So the question remains, who is Cultivation's Vessel?  I don't think it's very productive to just grasp at random names from the cosmere and wonder, "Is THIS Cultivation?" because it seems to me like Brandon is intentionally keeping her a secret, and I don't think we're going to find anything.  However, the bigger question then becomes, WHY is Cultivation's name a secret?  My theory is that her name is important somehow - that it will reveal something about the cosmere - but I have no idea what that could be.  Any ideas?

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Eh, Brandon kept a lot of the Vessel names under tight wraps for some time. We didn't get Ambition's name until just this last December, even though SfS came out in 2015. We didn't get confirmation that Edgli was Endowment's name until 2015 and Warbreaker had been out, and people had been asking, since 2009.  We didn't know Bavadin was Autonomy for...I can't remembe exactly how long, and didn't know Bavadin was female for even longer.

I wouldn't put too much into this.

Edited by RShara
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I don't think the name will matter much to us. The nickname Slammer probably gives us more information than her actual name. Even that doesn't give us much to work with.

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1 hour ago, RShara said:

Eh, Brandon kept a lot of the Vessel names under tight wraps for some time. We didn't get Ambition's name until just this last December, even though SfS came out in 2015. We didn't get confirmation that Edgli was Endowment's name until 2015 and Warbreaker had been out, and people had been asking, since 2009.  We didn't know Bavadin was Autonomy for...I can't remembe exactly how long, and didn't know Bavadin was female for even longer.

I wouldn't put too much into this.

I should have realized that other Shard names took awhile to be released - I perhaps have a more narrow perspective just because I'm so new to the fandom.  I read the first Mistborn trilogy years ago, but I only decided to return to Sanderson as early as last summer, at which point I became kind of obsessed with his writing and read all of his published cosmere works.  Oathbringer was the first book I had to wait for, and I only had to wait a few months for it.  So for someone who has just recently gotten into Sanderson in a serious way, I see that all of the Shard names have been revealed except for Cultivation, which is suspicious to me, although I'm sure that at the time of Warbreaker and Mistborn and all of the other cosmere novels being released, people had to wait a very long time to learn the names of the Vessels from those worlds.  So you're right, Cultivation's name probably isn't that big of a deal, any more than Ambition or Endowment's name or any of the others.  

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2 hours ago, Llarimar said:

I should have realized that other Shard names took awhile to be released - I perhaps have a more narrow perspective just because I'm so new to the fandom.  I read the first Mistborn trilogy years ago, but I only decided to return to Sanderson as early as last summer, at which point I became kind of obsessed with his writing and read all of his published cosmere works.  Oathbringer was the first book I had to wait for, and I only had to wait a few months for it.  So for someone who has just recently gotten into Sanderson in a serious way, I see that all of the Shard names have been revealed except for Cultivation, which is suspicious to me, although I'm sure that at the time of Warbreaker and Mistborn and all of the other cosmere novels being released, people had to wait a very long time to learn the names of the Vessels from those worlds.  So you're right, Cultivation's name probably isn't that big of a deal, any more than Ambition or Endowment's name or any of the others.  

No worries. Yeah it's not apparent on the surface, but it has taken a lot of persistence to get some of those names, so his reticence on Cultivation's name isn't unusual.

3 hours ago, Fatikis said:

I don't think the name will matter much to us. The nickname Slammer probably gives us more information than her actual name. Even that doesn't give us much to work with.

Oh right I forgot about that one. Yeah, Cultivation's nickname as "Slammer" is verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry interesting!

Edited by RShara
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6 hours ago, RShara said:
9 hours ago, Fatikis said:

I don't think the name will matter much to us. The nickname Slammer probably gives us more information than her actual name. Even that doesn't give us much to work with.

Oh right I forgot about that one. Yeah, Cultivation's nickname as "Slammer" is verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry interesting!

So English is not my first language, could you please explain what "slammer" could mean? :)

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"Slammer" is slang/an euphemism for "jail". So it probably references Cultivation keeping Odium imprisoned in Greater Roshar (somehow).

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8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

"Slammer" is slang/an euphemism for "jail". So it probably references Cultivation keeping Odium imprisoned in Greater Roshar (somehow).

It could be slang. Or it could mean what it sounds like. To Slam, really well. As in, she's really good in a fight :)

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@Llarimar Pretty sure Bavadin first came up in Hoids first Letter in WoK, along with Rayse. There are some very old WoBs where Brandon mentions it too. He is very fond of her.

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3 hours ago, RShara said:

It could be slang. Or it could mean what it sounds like. To Slam, really well. As in, she's really good in a fight :)

It also could be some sort of investiture usage. Slammer sounds a lot like terms used for Twinborn. Not saying that Cultivation is a twinborn, but that it might be in reference to pre-shattering investiture.

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I doubt this is particularly a likely explanation to the nickname slammer, but thought I might just throw it out there: When you slam certain things really hard they can break or even shatter.

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I'd say that by the way it was used, Slammer most likely refers to Cultivation playing as jailer to Odium. But there is some flexibility there.

As for hiding Cultivation's real name, there are three reasons. 1, Brandon doesn't want to, he likes to keep some info back, and Vessel names are common RAFOs. Two, Brandon wants us to think of her as Cultivation, that her entire thought-process/purpose is driven by the intent of Cultivation. 3, her name has significance on Roshar. Edgli's flowers for instance are named after Endowment's vessel. The fact that the dye made from them sticks so well is odd, but throw in the name and we have a very good indicator of magic. The same might apply on Roshar, something could be named after Cultivation, but the connection may not be obvious at first, but if we knew the name we could immediately pick it out.

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Like Uli Da, her name could be an indicator of species. It'd be entertaining watching the fallout on here if she turned out to be Dragon.

Or there's always option 5, he hasn't decided on a name for her yet.

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It's possible that it just hasn't come up as relevant from Brandon's perspective when writing The Stormlight Archive so far. It's significant to us because we're invested in the greater cosmere story, in learning everything we can about it and the Shattering and the Shards, wherever we can. But from Brandon's perspective, he includes stuff about the greater cosmere tapestry when its relevant to the story he's writing. The flipside of that is that his NOT including a piece of the greater cosmere backstory isn't necessarily an indication there's any significance to that other than it just wasn't something he saw a need to include at the moment. Perhaps its as simple as there hasn't been a scene thus far where Brandon felt it demanded he use the name of Cultivation's Vessel, and so he hasn't.

Like with Endowment. Edgli is mentioned in the text of Warbreaker in the form of the Tears of Edgli....but there was no indication in the text that this was a reference to the Shard Endowment herself, because there didn't need to be. And when Brandon confirmed that was Endowment's name years later at a signing when he was asked it directly, he did so IMO because it wasn't a big secret or anything - knowing that Edgli is the name of Endowment's Vessel doesn't really change anything about the story of Warbreaker itself, IMO, just like NOT knowing Edgli was her name didn't really add to the story or take away from it. There was just no real in-story reason why we had to know Edgli's name before Brandon confirmed it at a signing, just like there was no real reason for Brandon not to confirm it when asked.

So its possible we've seen Cultivation's name in text already and just aren't aware of its significance, but Brandon hasn't confirmed this because nobody's picked out the right name and asked him it directly yet. Or its just as possible it hasn't come up in text yet because there hasn't been reason for him to include it yet, and its just not Brandon's style to volunteer 'this Shard's name is (x) which there's no way you could possibly know since you've never heard that name before' when it will inevitably make its way into the text at some point, just like all the Shards and their Vessels will.

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Or Brandon just likes to keep us guessing sometimes ;)

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8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Like Uli Da, her name could be an indicator of species. It'd be entertaining watching the fallout on here if she turned out to be Dragon.

That would imply inter-species relationships though, as Tanavast is confirmed human. We don't know whether that's even possible with the species from Yolen.

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Well Brandon has said that his version of dragons are shapeshifters, so while we don't know much about the third sentient race from Yolen at this point, Cultivation could be a dragon and still romantically involved with Tanavast.

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Ohh good one @The One Who Connects option 4: it reveals her race. Makes me wonder how important race is to the shards, are the abilities, mind, will warping different?

 

As for inter-species relationships, it could be a thing. I mean, based on the sparse non-canon writings from Yolen, the species don't seem to connect well enough for it to happen, but maybe. Plus, they're gods, and long ago left their physical bodies behind, so I don't think it matters. Also, I'm not sure Tanavast was confirmed human (correct me if I'm wrong). Rayse appears to be human from Dalinars point of view, and parsh from Venli's pov. So Honor could likely display himself as whatever race he wanted. Depends on his thinking, causing if appearing as a different race is misleading then his intent might not allow it, but if he thinks of his race as 'god' then the most effective way to communicate would be to appear as the same race as whoever he's communicating with, similar to Rayse. 

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19 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

and parsh from Venli's pov.

Didn't Venli remark on Odium being human?

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Because of -i- like in the known names of vessels like At-i, Edgl-i, Ska-i I would gess we perhaps had already heard the name of Cultivation like with Edgli - Tash-i.

There is also this enemy Raylisi whose name reminds me too much on Rayse.

Can on another note the name reveal the gender?

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15 minutes ago, hypatia said:

Because of -i- like in the known names of vessels like At-i, Edgl-i, Ska-i I would gess we perhaps had already heard the name of Cultivation like with Edgli - Tash-i.

There is also this enemy Raylisi whose name reminds me too much on Rayse.

Can on another note the name reveal the gender?

We already know Cultivation is female.

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10 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Didn't Venli remark on Odium being human?

"Light crystallized beside her, forming an ancient parshman with a face marbled gold and white, and a regal scepter he carried like a cane.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1088). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. " Odium appears to Venli as an elderly parsh, and to Dalinar as an elderly man. 

 

10 minutes ago, hypatia said:

Because of -i- like in the known names of vessels like At-i, Edgl-i, Ska-i I would gess we perhaps had already heard the name of Cultivation like with Edgli - Tash-i.

There is also this enemy Raylisi whose name reminds me too much on Rayse.

Can on another note the name reveal the gender?

Probably. We know Cultivation is female at least.

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13 hours ago, hypatia said:

Because of -i- like in the known names of vessels like At-i, Edgl-i, Ska-i I would gess we perhaps had already heard the name of Cultivation like with Edgli - Tash-i.

There is also this enemy Raylisi whose name reminds me too much on Rayse.

Can on another note the name reveal the gender?

Reshi maybe? Might want to hide it because it would give her a relationship with the Reshi islands?

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1 hour ago, Palindrome said:

Reshi maybe? Might want to hide it because it would give her a relationship with the Reshi islands?

I don't think it's a secret that Cultivation is more worshiped by the western lands than she is in the east.  The Reshi Islands may not count as part of that because they're so far to the north, but Jasnah straight up says to Shallan in Wok, "In the east they worship a male deity named Honor, and in the west hey worship a female deity named Cultivation."  So it may reveal something about her to learn that her name parallels that of a geographic region or Roshar, but we already know the regions where Cultivation has been traditionally worshiped, so it probably wouldn't tell us that much.  

EDIT: However, if her name were Aimia, that might start an interesting discussion.  

Edited by Llarimar
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On 5/30/2018 at 5:36 AM, Leyrann said:

That would imply inter-species relationships though, as Tanavast is confirmed human. We don't know whether that's even possible with the species from Yolen.

Dragons can take human form. I don't know how far that actually goes, but given that we already have precedence for inter-species in Stormlight, it wouldn't be too out of place for Brandon to use that elsewhere.

I also agree with Wandering Investor that we don't actually know if Tanavast is human.

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