Fox - Chapter 12+13 - kais 05/28/18, 4262 words (V)

[kais]

Looking mostly for pacing-is it moving well, and age—is S believable as sheltered 17. I still have a lot of concerns about this section. It used to be one long chapter and has been since broken out into… four chapters? Five? So…does it all hang together? Does the guild antagonism make sense?

V for threats of violence

[Robinski]

WTF, I'm first?!  *rolls up sleeves*

Chapter 12

"and bit my lower lip" - This is over much for me. S'll be stamping their foot and holding their breath in a minute.

"I grabbed at my pouches, the first two I could..." - Is the whole point of the bandolier that it makes it easy to get at the correct pouch?

Surely male anatomy is not incorrect, it just doesn't get the succession rights.

Chapter 13

"a handful of bewildered guilders with no memory of their trade" - Huh? I forget this bit. WRS, no doubt.

"why did you use your alchemical pigments with so many people around?" - Excellent question. I was wondering the same.

"It didn't sound like fear anymore" - It never sounded like fear. It was anger from the start in the factory. I don't remember it being described as fear.

"we will lose S entirely" - not quite sure, still, how that works.

"I didn’t mean to…surprise you. Um, it’s not…a lot of things are happening. Have happened. This…I’m not… If we could just talk." - What? No. This is really stupid. S is not that dense. There's a mod outside and S wants to waste 15 mins in chatting? Also... all that... stuttering... it's... like Jesse... Eisenberg acting... at you.

M's speech about the old king. This sounds like maid-and-butler to me. S knows all this, surely.

"because my mouth had a bad tendency to run when I was nervous or upset. When it did, it was often without consultation with my brain." - I don't think this is in character. I don't find S that snarky.

Summary

I enjoyed Chapter 12, good action, good, quick pacing. I liked how it upped the personal stakes, if not necessarily those of the story overall (which are already pretty big: loss of the nation, etc.). Chapter 13 was... annoying more than anything else. It was almost exactly like an Aaron Sorkin script, it seems to me. Walking, stopping, talking, hurrying, stopping, talking. It felt a bit repetitious, like each time they stopped they talked about the same things. I think it needs a good going over to try and smooth things out and refine what is important and necessary.

Entertaining though. Always entertaining.

<R>

(LBLs sent separately)

[kais]

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

S'll be stamping their foot and holding their breath in a minute.

LOL. Well, that wouldn't be too out of character!

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

Is the whole point of the bandolier that it makes it easy to get at the correct pouch?

Yes, but S lost the bandolier early on, and has them on the belt now. It's awkward

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

Surely male anatomy is not incorrect, it just doesn't get the succession rights.

I've been toying with how best to deliver this line, because there are a dozen ways to say it poorly, and not any way, just yet, to say it with the punch I want without problematic language. I'll keep at it

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

WRS, no doubt.

Yeah, this is one of the new edits. Sorry about that!

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

It was anger from the start in the factory. I don't remember it being described as fear.

Ack. Artifact from previous draft. Thanks!

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

S wants to waste 15 mins in chatting

LOL. Yes. Feelings. Feeeeeeeeeelings.....

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

S knows all this, surely.

Due to edits in earlier chapters, this is actually the first time we now get the full story, although slightly edited for S's sensibilities.

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

I don't think this is in character. I don't find S that snarky.

Will revisit

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

Walking, stopping, talking, hurrying, stopping, talking. It felt a bit repetitious, like each time they stopped they talked about the same things.

Is it horrible that this is actually what I was going for? There's a certain aspect to lesbian culture that this really sort of borrows from (THINGS! but okay what about FEELINGS! but we're in danger! YES BUT FEELINGS!!) You've seen similar in Ard make out or sex scenes, just not to this same degree. Still, I'll look into streamlining a bit, because the last thing I want is for it to drag!

Thank you! And awesome on being first! We're on top of our game this week! I'm not even behind anymore.

[Mandamon]

It only takes a cruise to Alaska to get @Robinski to post before me!

Overall, I thought this was good. Some confusion as I got started, because the chapter break here is pretty abrupt. However, it contains one of my favorite scenes, with S throwing the power at the invisible witch!

Some more guild/factory confusion while reading, which I've noted below. The only other thing was that M's reactions at the end seemed a little off.

 

Notes while reading:

pg 1: WRS, but it took me a while to connect the beginning of this chapter with zinger at the end of the last one.

pg 1: "water frames"
--still not really sure what these are. Might be good to define, especially in a YA book.

pg 1: "M isn’t a part of this"
--Wait, S is still talking with the witch? Yeah, definitely need a bigger bridge between these chapters.

pg 2: I've always loved this part-glad it's back in, and extended!

pg 3: "I hissed to the filmy whiteness that lay like a cheesecloth over my vision."
--I assumed S was out of the magic, so need some other indication that she's still feeling the effects.

pg 4: “Unbound.”
--If these people are commoners, and not bound to a guild, then why do they care if S is unbound?

pg 5: "No unbound guilds!”
--yeah, still don't get this, if they're working in a factory and subsuming the guild anyway.

pg 6: "the snow sickness"
--eh? Is this is a thing? I don't remember it.

pg 7: "all I really remembered about him were hushed whispers and black curls."
I'm not sure this fits with the flashback and the other information we know about Sam. How much does S remember?

pg 7: "How many years had I longed for a sibling to ease the isolation of the Thujan woods?"
--S did? We've never heard anything about this before.

pg 8: "my elder brother, and I don’t think he is happy to see me.”
--This is good, but I think it could have more punch if we knew a little more about the dynamics of guild legacy. Right now, I think we've been told only females can inerit, so what does Sam have to be mad about?

pg 9: "it felt like she was mad at me"
--I think this needs to be bumped up more. M seems annoyed, but not particularly mad at S. Especially with the chapter break, it loses some of the tension.

pg 9: "even my mother"
--is the queen also guiled? To who? Seems like public information.

pg 9: "a handful of bewildered guilders with no memory of their trade"
--what now? This is new information.
--ah, good. You address it next paragraph.

pg 10: Is Gas. Fle. the name of the old kingdom? I'd like some confirmation of that.

pg 10: "It felt like sheets of ice compressed my chest. I felt cold, though the sun was warm on my face. “Factories,” I whispered."
--I don't quite follow. Are the factories on the glacier? What connection has S made?

pg 11: "Her arm moved tight around my waist..."
--this section doesn't seem so much like one person interrogating another. It's a little too intimate. Especially with "she was the royal daughter, grown and angry" later on.

pg 11: “Did you find the Grandmaster of Glass?” 
--who what? Were they looking? This seems like a non-sequitor.

pg 12: "The only safe place is Th."
--that seems...doubtful. Maybe the witch is not informed, but it also makes it a less effective threat.

pg 12: "factory has been running in secret"
--Can a factory run in secret? That seems like it would take too many people to conceal.

pg 13: "You can be real quick to threaten burning,"
--if this is a thing, I'd like another sentence earlier in the book to bolster the fact.

pg 15: "I get that you have a blind spot when it comes to guilds"
--this is a good section, but could be bolstered by something earlier on.

pg 15: "Magda slapped at the doorframe..."
--This section is also good, in that it answers questions we've had the whole time. However, to make it sound less like an infodump and more like a revelation, it needs to be crystal clear that S has been in the dark.

pg 16: "she whispered into my ear as she passed."
--I like the moment, but it seems a quick change from M just being mad at S.

[Robinski]

6 hours ago, Mandamon said:

It only takes a cruise to Alaska to get @Robinski to post before me!

And me being on holiday at the same time  

[AviatrixAway]

Hello! I thought that this was entertaining, but I was a little bit confused at the beginning.

Pg. 1: I'm a little confused as to what water frames are. At the moment, I'm just assuming that they're weaving frames that somehow incorporate the use of water in the weaving or dying process?

Pg. 1-3: I was a little confused by the snapping from one reality to another. I could see it as the chapter progressed, but with each change my brain was double-checking to make sure that what it read was really what was happening in the story, and was working a little harder to visualize. I'm not sure how to fix this, as slips between reality are notoriously hard (for me) to write, but I though I'd note it.

Pg. 4: I appreciated the look of concern on Sa's face. It shows some compassion and depth of character. It is contradictory, though, as he was the one who shoved So. in there. What is his relationship to the factory and the people in it? If he's guilded, then are the factory workers ok with him being there?

Pg. 5: This was likely covered early in the book, but I'm confused by the term "unbound." Again, this is just because I'm coming in late. This whole scene reminds me of a sort of opposite Luddite rebellion. Very interesting.

Pg. 6: M's reaction to S's question is interesting, and makes me think that she did see Sa., and just didn't want to talk about it right then.

Pg. 9-11: I feel bad for S during this section. I know that they're rushing through town to escape an angry mob, and that S wants to talk, and M wants to hurry, but it seems unfair that M should be angry at S. If she didn't want S to follow her to the factory, she should've left a note. Beyond that, the witch was hardly S's fault, nor was Sa's presence, which does bear noting, S's fault. If M just wants to discuss these things later, then she should say earlier what she says on pg. 13.

Pg. 10: I'm super interested to hear more about why the guilders can't remember their crafts. 

Pg. 12: I wonder that M is so unconcerned by the witch, who seems like a major threat. Isn't she worried about S, knowing that S is having to deal with a witch who wants S to do one thing, and M's making S do another? 

Pg. 14: On the other hand, there is a mob behind them, and now is not the best time for S to mention sitting down and having a convo.

Pg. 16: Well. That mood changed quickly. It's believable, though.

[shatteredsmooth]

On 5/28/2018 at 0:25 PM, kais said:

Looking mostly for pacing-is it moving well, and age—is S believable as sheltered 17. I still have a lot of concerns about this section. It used to be one long chapter and has been since broken out into… four chapters? Five? So…does it all hang together? Does the guild antagonism make sense?

Pacing was great. I flew through this section. S, with the exception of maybe page 1, felt about 17 and sheltered. The other characters close to their age felt more adult, like they could be in their twenties, but it is easy to attribute that to a less sheltered up brining, especially for Magda. I didn't question the guild antagonism, but later, I did question why they were okay with Sam but no other guild-related people, which makes me think he is behind some of it. 

Some notes I made while I read:

"...cursed spirits I'd never heard of" I had to read this line a couple times for it to make sense in context.

"...guilds, and the leader..." don't need the comma.

..."Out at five to..." confirmed he was their brother. 

Every time you use tii, I think it should be capitalized. 

Something about the flirting did seem a little more mature. S's side was okay, for the most part, becuase they were dense about it and awkward, but I wondered if Magda's flirting was a little too mature. I keep thinking she wouldn't have much time for flirting as the daughter of a queen, but then I go the other  direction and think of princes from books in similar but less queer settings, and they are all over flirting and being mature in that department. Anyway, its something to think about. I didn't mark it while reading, but there were one or two lines were you could've been describing flirtations between Atalant and Emm, so maybe that was what made those flirty scenes more mature. Maybe there just needs to be a tad more mutual awkwardness? 

[shatteredsmooth]

On 5/29/2018 at 1:57 PM, Robinski said:

It was almost exactly like an Aaron Sorkin script, it seems to me. Walking, stopping, talking, hurrying, stopping, talking. It felt a bit repetitious, like each time they stopped they talked about the same things. I think it needs a good going over to try and smooth things out and refine what is important and necessary.

This part didn't bother me so much, though I admit I did sort of fly over it more interested what happens next than feelings. However, I just read fast and initially chose not to comment on it because "feelings" are just not something I'm good at in life and in writing. Sooner or later, you will all realize that and probably be yelling at me about my character's lack of feelings and lack of reaction to anything. Unless the feedback of my past four books and dozens of short stories has finally taught me how to write emotions I lack into stories. But we'll see. 

Back to this story...

On 5/29/2018 at 11:19 PM, kais said:

There's a certain aspect to lesbian culture that this really sort of borrows from (THINGS! but okay what about FEELINGS! but we're in danger! YES BUT FEELINGS!!) You've seen similar in Ard make out or sex scenes, just not to this same degree

I don't think it dragged. I had no problem not reading as closely to get away from the gooey feelings, and it's probably better to have too many feelings than not enough, especially when publishing twitter is always tweeting about feels and other alien things. Plus, if this is a part of lesbian culture you want to be clear, then there is value to keeping it. 

I may be enby, but I'm not a lesbian, and culture is a thing I watch as an outsider and occasionally try and fail to participate in, but from my awkward outsider perspective, I did sort of get the lesbian + feelings thing before you pointed it out. 

And it's 1 a.m. here on the east coast, so I should probably save further commenting for a time when I am more awake and coherent. I have some notes on the earlier chapters. I'll email them to you tomorrow. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by shatteredsmooth

[industrialistDragon]

So is a believable 17-year-old. The chapters work better in YA format.


"In front of me, tiny colored flakes " -- This paragraph feels really repetitive. In three different, differently awkward ways we are told the powder is floating in the air. Once would be enough, I think. Twice, max.

I also found the passages where Ma's reality clashed with So's to be confusing. I think there just needs to be more of a demarcation between the two realities. or at least some kind of description of what So was seeing of the change between the two rooms. 

 

I could really use a LOT more description of the factory, its devices, what they are doing, how they sound, why everyone's do divided over them.... While it's better in this iteration, I'm still very, VERY unclear on why the guilds are so set against the "factories."  This is the point when we finally get to see a factory in person, finally get to see why and how having useful, drudgework-removing machines will mean the end of all skilled crafts. But, it doesn't.

From the description we have, the factory looks like just a bunch of regular people doing what they have to to survive and being unafraid of change. Ma and So come off pretty unsympathetically hidebound here, even with all of the townspeople being "angry villager" stereotypes. This isn't our IRL history, there's no reason the guilds have to die just because technology makes the busywork take less time, and so far I'm still not convinced of the guilds' importance in this world, or why their deaths should matter, which means I'm not terribly invested in the factory or the reasons for/against it. 

I might just need to see more guilds. So far, we've had woodcutters (which our POV character would be fine seeing die, insofar as the guild itself is represented by moms), alchemists (unbound, which makes them apparently morally grey in-world, and its unclear whether technology would affect them regardless), witches (ee-eevil, and unbound, and the POV character would actively like to see the guild gone, again insofar as the guild is represented by the nameless harasser), name-checks on blacksmiths and carpenters (but no details other than their name), and this unrelated-to-any-other-guild-thus-far-mentioned textile mill.  

Of the guilds listed, I have emotional responses towards woodcutters (it's So's hereditary guild after all, so in theory I care about it the way So does), witches (ee-eevil), and alchemists (again, because of So's opinions).  These three guilds are the ones whose works we have seen in detail (carpentry is only positively shown (briefly) in Sa's spirit house. Every other mention is negative, either in "unguilded crap furniture" or that interlude). None of these guilds seems particularly threatened by a textile mill. None of the factory workers are intended to be sympathetic, from what I can tell. I don't know enough politics to see how one small (very small) town's startup "factory" is going to bring down a country, or why keeping it is worth regicide, apparently (they're going after Ma, after all). If the factory was a woodcutting factory maybe I would care? If I had some kind of investment in a character that was a weaver or a spinner or a dyer or whatever else is being threatened by this factory, maybe I'd care? I don't know. But right now, Mi and its textile mill has so little to do with anything else I've learned about in the book this far, it's only the nebulous concept of "factories are baaaaad" that's connecting it to the rest of the story's tension.

 

"strange pouches of powders" -- Why would these look any different from any other unlabeled pouches hung from any other random person's belt? Previously, I was under the impression it was the bandoleer that marked an alchemist, not simply having pouches.  And rather, wouldn't the suddenly appearing from nothing be more of a tell for witchcraft than mere bags? 

 

"No unbound guilds" -- Why is this somehow worse than whatever they were talking about before? I'm confused. 

I'm still unclear WHY Ma went to the factory in this version, but that might be WRS

I liked the end of this first chapter in this section.

 

", a handful of bewildered guilders with no memory of their trade" -- This would be a really, really good thing to incorporate into earlier chapters because it seems like a really big deal and ALSO something So would be able to discover alone, just by talking to other guildmembers. I would really like to see some of these amnesiac guilders, so I could get a sense of what's happening. I feel like I'm being told the situation is dire without really getting to see any of it for myself and finding these new memory-wiped people would be a really good way to get So and me involved in this mystery a lot more. 

" “Factories,” I whispered"  -- Yup. still unimpressed. So is acting like a child scared of their closet and Ma isn't much better. I don't feel any kind of sympathy for them, or like they're in much danger. The townspeople have angry torches, for Pete's sake. I'm waiting for them to start a slapstick chase scene, once they locate the pitchforks they seem to be missing.

"Buuuurning,"   - This just looks silly. The voice was creepy up to this point, but the creepiness has evaporated with all those extra letters.

 

"because my mouth had a bad tendency to run when I was nervous or upset."  -- Um... I have seen this "tendency" pretty much never, so far. So is if anything pretty taciturn. This section is really reading out of character for So. Not the apologizing so much, but the couple times So has said things like that, that have no basis in anything we've read so far. It doesn't feel like So is an unreliable narrator, it feels like So is being written oddly. 

This section is better than it had been, but still needs some work.