20180528- The Ivory Tower- Scenes 3&4- 4164 words- Jorville

[Jorville]

Once again, it's pretty raw. Hopefully  it's a little easier to read this time. I look forward to your critiques.

The previous two scenes involved M and her search for the tailor shop that her father directed her to. In the tailor shop the dressmaker got her the perfect dress for the ball her father was putting on for her. She also met Ambassador A, after an awkward initial meeting they resolved to make further conversation outside of the shop after M was finished with the dressmaker.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Jorville

[kais]

Overall

Hey hey, welcome back!

Generally, I wasn't engaged with this until about the last two chapters, which is where I think your story really begins. Some notes below. I'm still put-off by the dark-skinned savage and the white default thing you've got going on, but both are pretty easy fixes if you go into the early chapters and do things like note skin tones for everyone, and put in a few more people of color in day-to-day things. 

There's a reasonable hook there at the end, in trying to decide between two worlds, but I think it took too long to get to. That's not uncommon in first drafts, however, so don't be discouraged. While not many of us are super big fans of editing, we certainly all old hats at it.

 

As I go

- generally, descriptions of the weather aren't strong enough for chapter openers

- she's being 'struck' by a lot of things in these opening paragraphs. Watch the redundancy

- M is 14???

- 'sun bronzed cheeks' okay, but what color skin does the ambassador have? Watch the white default. I note that at the end of page two, when you describe him, you only describe his build and hair, not his skin tone

- A basically invited himself to this ball, and M is okay with that? Being brought up in a strong matriarchy, I'd think she'd at least be offended he assumed. Same deal with the curtesy. Would a (young) woman from a matriarchy curtsey to man she barely knew, who wasn't of equal rank?

- page three, paragraph that starts with 'the man looked...' This paragraph confused me a lot. I think it needs to be crisper. 'The warrior from the XXX' is also a hard tag to use when we barely know M. Suggest just sticking with her name for now

- I think I need more blocking on this carriage incident, because right now, M just seems like she has a really short fuse but also is easily subdued

- page four: the dress has a rough texture?? Isn't she a noble of some sort? Wouldn't she want soft fabrics? Or wait, is it the wrapping paper that is rough?

- page five: marble isn't a proper noun

- page seven: no skin tone note on the father, either, which, again, serves to further the 'otherness' of our protagonist, the violent, spear-wielding, tropical woman with the darker skin

- page seven: I feel like this page, here, is where the narrative actually starts. The concept of leaving one family for another, of being mixed race, is a strong one, and serves as a good hook for a book. You might consider cutting the previous chapters (in late, out early, as it were) and really starting the book here, where M comes to visit her father and he suggests she try living in his world for a while. That, I think, would be a very engaging book, especially if you could keep the 'otherness' at bay in terms of skin tone

Edited May 28, 2018 by kais

[Jorville]

2 hours ago, kais said:

Generally, I wasn't engaged with this until about the last two chapters, which is where I think your story really begins. Some notes below. I'm still put-off by the dark-skinned savage and the white default thing you've got going on, but both are pretty easy fixes if you go into the early chapters and do things like note skin tones for everyone, and put in a few more people of color in day-to-day things. 

- 'sun bronzed cheeks' okay, but what color skin does the ambassador have? Watch the white default. I note that at the end of page two, when you describe him, you only describe his build and hair, not his skin tone

- page seven: no skin tone note on the father, either, which, again, serves to further the 'otherness' of our protagonist, the violent, spear-wielding, tropical woman with the darker skin

Hmm, I must say I am a little caught off guard by all the concern over skin tone. I haven't given it much thought myself. I have always imagined M with more of a Greek look to her. Which I now find somewhat amusing since there is an 'amazon' thing going on with her. Now, the Plains people are generally white. To the south are a more Arabic looking people(e.g. the merchant with the accent in the market). I don't have built into this world some magical rapid transit, so cross cultural exchange would be difficult at best and the world cultures are still pretty insular. To my reasoning this world wouldn't have a lot of societies with the genetic diversity that would provide for such variance in skin tone. While the city might have a little more, being a major trade city, I have a hard time reasoning out how having a great genetic diversity would exist. Perhaps what I need to do is be slightly more descriptive of their differences, but I want to make sure that it is the cultural differences here causing conflict. I don't want to draw attention to unimportant things such as skin tone.

2 hours ago, kais said:

- generally, descriptions of the weather aren't strong enough for chapter openers

Yeah, I have noticed this actually. I think when I start writing that might be the first thing I think of before moving on in my mind to other things that a bit more relevant. I will keep that in mind

2 hours ago, kais said:

- she's being 'struck' by a lot of things in these opening paragraphs. Watch the redundancy

Yeah that happens, normally @QuirkyGrandpa shreds me for that but I don't think she actually went over this scene so must have missed that.

2 hours ago, kais said:

- M is 14???

In short, no. No Martin stuff going on here. I did actually stop at that and wonder if I should change the wording before I submitted but I decided not to. M hadn't had experience with other cultures until her father came and she got to go with him for the first time when she was 14. This was the first time she experienced another culture. she has been visiting for lengths of time for the past 4-5 years. so she is the 18-19 age range. I will be working on making that more clear.

3 hours ago, kais said:

- A basically invited himself to this ball, and M is okay with that? Being brought up in a strong matriarchy, I'd think she'd at least be offended he assumed. Same deal with the curtesy. Would a (young) woman from a matriarchy curtsey to man she barely knew, who wasn't of equal rank?

uh, this one is a difficult one. I might want to put in some more dialogue here to bring that out. I think she would obviously a little irritated but she is trying to fit into a different culture so she doesn't want to fly off the handle at thing like this. I do need to work on this section her reaction doesn't really sit well. and yeah, not really sure what I was thinking when i put the curtsy in there it does read really out of place.

3 hours ago, kais said:

- page three, paragraph that starts with 'the man looked...' This paragraph confused me a lot. I think it needs to be crisper. 'The warrior from the XXX' is also a hard tag to use when we barely know M. Suggest just sticking with her name for now

Yes I re read that it is off. I need to rework that one.

Another one for @QuirkyGrandpa, I so scared of her beatings, umm, I mean, I appreciate her critiquing so much that I try very hard not to use the name all the time. I will take a look at this though and see if I can tone it down.

3 hours ago, kais said:

- I think I need more blocking on this carriage incident, because right now, M just seems like she has a really short fuse but also is easily subdued

I will work on this. Not really what I was going for. M's culture is pretty authoritarian so people who breech the normal protocols are dealt with swiftly and harshly. She knows that doesn't work here so she kinda has to come reign herself in. I obviously need to work on that  coming across.

3 hours ago, kais said:

- page four: the dress has a rough texture?? Isn't she a noble of some sort? Wouldn't she want soft fabrics? Or wait, is it the wrapping paper that is rough?

Wrapping paper is rough. I will make that a little more clear.

3 hours ago, kais said:

- page five: marble isn't a proper noun

Agreed, will fix that.

3 hours ago, kais said:

- page seven: I feel like this page, here, is where the narrative actually starts. The concept of leaving one family for another, of being mixed race, is a strong one, and serves as a good hook for a book. You might consider cutting the previous chapters (in late, out early, as it were) and really starting the book here, where M comes to visit her father and he suggests she try living in his world for a while. That, I think, would be a very engaging book, especially if you could keep the 'otherness' at bay in terms of skin tone

hmm, I will consider this. I started on a new intro that I think might do this a little better. 

 

Thanks again @kais for the feedback. I really appreciate it, I know this story will be better because of it.

[QuirkyGrandpa]

2 hours ago, Jorville said:

Another one for @QuirkyGrandpa, I so scared of her beatings, umm, I mean, I appreciate her critiquing so much that I try very hard not to use the name all the time. I will take a look at this though and see if I can tone it down.

The beatings will continue until the book is published and ratings improve.

Edited May 29, 2018 by QuirkyGrandpa

[Robinski]

I'm glad to be back with this story. I'll be more sensitive to the roughness this time, and not prattle on about grammar stuff (too much...).

First Section

"and she had lived here every other year for the past four years" - This is rather 'tell-y'. I get that the heat would remind her of home but, for me, this is too much just feeding me information outwit the context of character and story. I think this piece of information needs to be more smoothly integrated into the character's thoughts.

"and to see M" - is this for the first time? Like, he fathered this child, but had never been to her mother's homeland? Just seemed to me he would have tried to establish trade if he had been there before.

The first page feels a bit meandering and repetitious. M thinks about some of the themes, then they are repeated in dialogue with A. I think you could condense and clarify a fair bit of this.

"but 14 fourteen years of conditioning was hard to break" - Arrrrgghh. Well, I got to page two. No numerals in fictional narrative, please. For one thing, it takes one right out of the story, and also undermines a fantasy setting, I think. I believe it is acceptable in SF, and you will see instances of it there, for serial numbers and such, where the alternative is a bit long string of words, but not for ages, distances, other measures, or quantities.

"her sun bronzed cheeks gaining a slight red tint" - This is out of her POV: she can't see her own cheeks, but I suppose she could imagine that they must be coloring (When in Rome,  )

I don't feel that A is humbling himself all that much, so the line about flattery also fell a bit flat for me too. I think his alternative phrasing could be a good bit more deferential. Say something like, "...should it find favour with you, my lady." although without coming over all obsequious.

She's not aware of the book, really? The seems unlikely, but I guess it's possible. Wouldn't her old man have told her about though, as a sort of family history? it does seem from A's comment that father is well known for the book.

"wears wares for sale"

I know it's typo-fodder, but I see the name of the country spelled three different ways in here  

LOL - I laughed at him inviting himself to the ball. I have a concern however that A is the love interest. For one thing, he seems rather boring, for another, there's a tendency in fiction for characters to fall in love with the first person of the opposite sex that they meet, and have any sort of interaction with. Is the bad? I think it can be when it happens early in a story, because it removes an element of (sometimes subliminal) tension, certainly if they get on well from the start. Romantic tension is an important element of a good fiction, I think.

"The young Alt warrior looked up at him suddenly" - I struggle when you refer to her as this, because I don't know who it is for a moment. Referring to her as anything other than M makes her seem more remote and vague, but she is the main (and single?) POV in the story. Also, you've explain how Alt is called the Land of the Phoenix, and the Tears, etc., so I just can't think of it as Alt; it's too remote (again) from how you've identified it, I think. ALSO, you have character names starting with 'A' and 'M', and you have country names starting with 'A' and 'M', but the other way around. It seems a bit limited.

I don't understand what happened with the carriage. A doesn't push her, does he? It didn't seem like that. And did she fall in front of the carriage? Unclear. This could be an exciting moment, but I'm left kind of confused.

So, the explanation could clearer as well. Was he trying to push her out of the path of the carriage? I feel like his explanation could be clearer too.

"It was so different here in the civilized world." - Whoa, surely she does not consider her mother's land and uncivilised? I don't think this is the right word. Gentrified, maybe. Cosmopolitan? 

"only wanted everyone to try their best and what happy with whatever the result of that was" - This does not sound like a man who has forged a business empire, and is opening trade routes with neighbouring (and very different/challenging) countries.

Magic is not treated as particularly important or prominent in society. I suppose since M isn't good at it, it's not likely to be a big part of her life, but this will tend to limit it's ability to solve problems later in the story (according to Sanderson's Laws, at least). At this point, I don't think about much at all.

Second Section

I know I'm not supposed to be doing grammar comments, and this isn't that; it's a style thing. I know it's rough, so this is not a criticism, but an observation. There are passages that are really very wordy, and which affect the flow of the narrative. I think it's good practice to practice minimising the word count every opportunity. There's a slider, which can be pushed too far, but it's a good discipline to have in mind when writing, I think, and makes for more enjoyable prose. So here -- "She opened the door out of the carriage herself", I would suggest "She opened the carriage door herself." 33% shorter, 89% clearer, and 154% smoother :)

"He mumbled a response, but she wasn’t really listening" - I like that our M/C is flawed. She has good qualities, but also annoying ones, and some unpleasant attributes. It's good for creating internal tension, it seems to me.

This second section is very slow. All the stuff about servants and preparations. Her contemplation of and talking with N, which must last about two minutes, gets over a page. I think for a novel-length story to get any sort of decent pace up and sustained, short a simple sections will need to be clipped through in much less space.

"the young warrior imagined he and her mother would have gotten along well" - Yeah, I would encourage you to remove all these remote and oblique references to the main character, which really take me out of her POV, and distance me from her. Here, and all similar instances, why not just refer to her as 'she'? It's much more direct, and lets the reader focus on what you are saying, not how your are saying it. I don't think we should always be reminded of who is speaking, we know what and who she is now.

Wordiness, repetition, etc.--down to first draft, but I notice on this page in particular how every single action is noted: walk down the corridor, stop at the end, turn the handle, open the door. Personally, I don't think that level of detail is called for, or particularly interesting/engaging. "After he said that his face got serious as he continued to look out at the city" here for example, the first bit is just extra words. We know it's after what he said, because it's the next bit. I would encourage you, when you go through another edit, to cut such extraneous words, which will greatly improve the general flow, and therefore reader engagement.

"Your mother has been known to be wrong before.” He looked at her and winked, “Don’t tell her I said that, she might get angry." - Lol, this is a good line, and a nice father-daughter moment, but let the reader have the ending. We all know why he's asking her not to tell, you don't need to explain it. When things are obvious, don't explain them. It's much more satisfying for the reader; it feels more like a shared joke.

Her mother's name starts with an 'M' as well? That's going to be even more confusing, if she plays a part in the story.

This is an interesting conflict her father has presented her with. I like it. Stories don't always have to be about saving the world. Nice work. Does her mother have not other children?

I find this a very satisfying conclusion to what was quite a slow chapter, certainly the second part (Wait, is that a separate chapter? No chapter heading?).

I like where the story is going, clash of cultures, etc. I'm presuming there will be some more immediately conflict, but I like the groundwork you've put down here. Keen to read more now :) 

<R>

[Robinski]

On 29/05/2018 at 5:03 AM, QuirkyGrandpa said:

The beatings will continue until the book is published and ratings improve.

 

[Mandamon]

Overall, I'm still looking for the direction of the story. These sections are still mostly setup, and not a lot happenening. I think this and the first section could be combined or eliminated, if the ball is what really starts he story. We only start to get there at the end of the section. Really, you could even start the book with M meeting her father. It would give us some worldbuilding, we'd find out what M's situation was, and then the story could progress.

Notes while reading:
pg 1: "once again reminded" twice in one paragraph

pg 1: I don't remember who A is from the first sections. Probably WRS.

pg 1: there's a big discussion about culture here, but I'm not really sure what M's goal is. Is she going somewhere in particular?

pg 2: M is only 14?

pg 2: Oh yes, A is the ambassador. I remember now.

pg 2: "From there the conversation continued about her father and her people."
--yes, but I'm stil not sure what they're doing. Is M just out for a stroll? Does she have some objective?

pg 2: "She hadn’t invited him"
--yep, agree with M. She didn't actually invite him. I feel like an ambassador should be more in touch with social niceties?

pg 3: "She stumbled forward before tripping and falling in the dusty street and rolling several times before hearing a large ripping sound and stopping."
--very awkward sentence.

pg 3: "shoving her like that she was the daughter of a Chieftain"
--eh? I would think the daughter of a chieftain would be a person of note.

pg 3: "carriage gently roll to a stop"
--I think you mean it almost hit her, but rolling gently doesn't give me that impression. It should be screeching to a halt, or maybe crashing into something.

pg 3: There's a lot of changing from proper names to descriptors, and it makes it hard to tell who's speaking and what POV we're in. Generally, the POV character doesn't get descriptors, since they know who they are.
--"the warrior woman"
--"The Alte. woman"

pg 3: "some kind of moronic fool"
--This seems over the top.

pg 3: "sorcerer"
--I thought he was an ambassador?

pg 4: "The carriage took off rumbling back home."
--I want a little more from this section. What is M trying to achieve? Does she change at all from this encounter? Is there a point to the conversation besides worldbuilding?

pg 5-6: A lot of this is just transition, and nothing really happens. I feel like most of this could be cut down or eliminated.

pg 8: This section lacks punch at the ending. We don't know enough about M's relation to the tribe and what leaving it means to her. Also, I'm not sure why she needs to leave. Some of the previous section where she's wandering around the house could be used to develop that.

 

[industrialistDragon]

Welcome back!

Just a quick formatting note here: please remember to double space your submissions. A) it's in the guidelines, B ) for people like me who have trouble reading on the screen double spacing (or even 1.5 spacing!) is massively helpful, and C) it's a good habit to get into if you ever intend to submit work to a publisher. Your last sub was double spaced just fine.
 

Overall:

Much like the other comments here, I found this section lacking in direction. Most of the issues from the previous submission are present here as well. I do still like M as a character, and the setting still feels like it could be fun, but right now I have nothing really to hang my hat on, emotionally, and thus I don't care too much about what is going on. 

I share @kais's worry about the ongoing skin tone issues.  If nothing else, it is a confusing inconsistency: either skin color is important enough to be included in everyone's description, like hair color is; or it is unimportant and should be included in no one's description. We-the-readers are not Plains people, we don't have the ingrained assumption that Plains people are pale, and an individual reader's ingrained assumptions are what are relied on when there is a lack of description in-text. A couple years ago, Kirkus Review started noting skin color in all of its reviews and the reasoning behind doing so is worth a read.

I also share @Robinski 's concern about the love interest. While it's not a hugely problematic stereotype, it is a very, very overused one.  Readers will be less forgiving of blandness in a trope they know well. Besides which, I think everyone is agreeing so far that A is an oily jerk. M can do so much better!

 

As I go

This is, as @kais, and @Mandamon pointed out, a very slow opening paragraph. It feels wandering and unfocused.

Much like the previous sub, this section feels like it consists mostly of summaries and detached-seeming reminiscences. I end up wondering why I'm reading these things, since the memories and summaries don't seem to go anywhere or be attached to anything.  I'm not sure of the overarching plot and I don't know how any of what is happening fits with anything M has thought about or remembered or reminisced over. 

 

I feel like M's capitulation towards A is very confusing coming from a supposedly dominant warrior princess. He's been unctuous, arrogantly self-satisfied, condescending, and downright rude to her, and she ends up feeling bad about out having negative reactions to his poor treatment of her. This is not the behavior of someone who believes in her self, her own self-worth, or thinks herself the least bit superior to men. This is more like the response of a submissive woman who wants all men to like her, and that is definitely neither A, nor her upbringing. 

I agree that it picks up around when the father talks to M about her inheritance. I still like the idea of starting at the humiliating ball, but this would also be a good, interesting place to start the novel. 

[shatteredsmooth]

On 5/28/2018 at 6:09 PM, kais said:

in trying to decide between two worlds,

Even if the convo with the dad doesn't happen write away, if you opened with her being humiliated at the ball we don't see, she could be deciding if it is worth to stay visiting her dad and battle this out, or to just go home and forget about her dad's world. And when he offers to have her stay, that kind of ups the stakes of the decision. 

 

On 5/30/2018 at 6:59 AM, Robinski said:

LOL - I laughed at him inviting himself to the ball.

Me too! 

 

On 5/30/2018 at 1:17 PM, Mandamon said:

Overall, I'm still looking for the direction of the story. These sections are still mostly setup, and not a lot happenening. I think this and the first section could be combined or eliminated, if the ball is what really starts he story. We only start to get there at the end of the section. Really, you could even start the book with M meeting her father. It would give us some worldbuilding, we'd find out what M's situation was, and then the story could progress.

 

Several people seem to agree on starting it later, and I'm over here, start it earlier and make the conflict/arc

 

On 6/1/2018 at 5:51 PM, industrialistDragon said:

I still like the idea of starting at the humiliating ball

OK, I'm not the only one. :-)

 

When I got to this section, I started paying less attention to sentence level things. I marked some missing words or missing periods, but since I'm reading straight through to catch up, its on my kindle, and too much work to stop and mark errors. Everyone else seems to have caught them anyways. And I'm pretty good at ignoring grammatical stuff, especially in the summer when I'm not actively trying to teach students to at least attempt to edit before turning in a final draft. 

Plus, if you saw the state of some of the pieces I sent, then you know I'm one to throw stones about grammar.