Overlord Jebus

[OB] Aimia and the Dawnshards

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The timing is the most questionable thing.  In Dalinar's vision, Honor regrets that the Dawnshards are lost -- he doesn't tell Dalinar to head on over to Aimia to pick them up before confronting Odium.

Of course, it's possible that Honor does know that the Dawnshards are on Aimia and doesn't want to risk mentioning that in a vision in case the visions get hijacked or sent to someone who decides he'd rather be a tyrant than a Bondsmith.  But even then I'd think he'd say something like "Find the Dawnshards.  I cannot tell you where they are, but find them."

It's also kind of hard to figure out how you'd lose weapons of great power, at least in the "oops, where did I put that again" sense.  They could have been captured.  They could have been destroyed.  But it's hard to imagine that Honor, the Heralds, the Radiants, and/or whoever had custody of them all just lost track of these super-powerful weapons (or whatever they were).

Personally, I kind of like the theory that the Dawnshards were ancient spren of Adonalsium that were reformed into the Unmade.  As of Oathbringer, that doesn't appear to be the most likely explanation -- the Dawnshards will probably just end up being some boring old weapons -- but it's still my favorite.

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8 hours ago, galendo said:

The timing is the most questionable thing

I absolutely agree the biggest flaw in this theory is the timing of how things played out. Things just don't seem to line up nicely.

As for why Honor thinks they are completely unavailable now, that's another question I do not have the answer for. If the Dawnshards are something of great power, it would seem weird if they were completely destroyed but that's how Honor makes it sound.

And I think the Aimians, if they weren't destroyed, still have access to the Dawnshards or at least maybe the ability to recreate them? The Dawnshards could be knowledge that the Aimians hold but Honor doesn't know about it.

I do however think they are more than just weapons

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36 minutes ago, Overlord Jebus said:

As for why Honor thinks they are completely unavailable now, that's another question I do not have the answer for.

I don't know if it's relevant or not but the Ire has methods to shield devices from shards, so perhaps the same effect could be done in rosharan magic, honor sensed the thing disappeared (plus he is losing his mind) and thought it's gone?

Edited by Vay1221
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@galendo I to am in the baseless theory camp that the Dawnshards were corrupted into the Unmade. 

9 Unmade, 10 Dawnshards, with one Dawnshard remaining whole to fulfill this WoB. 

Quote

Curtis

Could you write something about Dawnshards that we don't/won't know?

Brandon

One Dawnshard is different from all the rest. 

source

 

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Based on what we have seen, the dawn shards might be connected to the god surges Brandon has mentioned. Hence the reason that they are classed as a superweapon.

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@Overlord Jebus I posted this in the Shardcast responses. But what if the Sibling is also in Aimia? Bonded to a Sleepless, and they're using it to power a Fabrial that's creating the storm that floats around the island?

Edited by Naurock
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Is it possible that the dawnshards are the siblings (nightwatcher, stormfather & "sleeping other"), these are the children of honour & cultivation (hence the shards, dawn meaning new?) and the sibling is sleeping and contained on Aimia because he was the unruly child? 

Theres my crazy theory for today.

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I rather suspect that Aimians have something equivalent to a Nahel bond, that allows them to access surges via fabrials. 

Is it possible that a fabrial, planet-sized, is part of what binds Odium? The Aimians know something. Something about the dawnshards is being hinted at, but I doubt it is as simple as this theory suggests. 

Also, I still strongly suspect that the Skybreakers were responsible for the Scouring of Aimia, for the same reason they were hunting Radiants. Notice just how little it took for the Aimian that met Lift, to decide to kill some Skybreakers. He didn't have the least patience with them, although he did with Lift. 

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On 5/24/2018 at 6:30 PM, Overlord Jebus said:

“Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal,

A thought just popped into my head. Could the strange white-gold blade that Vyre (Moash) uses to kill Jezrien possibly be a dawnshard? It seems to "bind" Jezrien's soul somehow when he is killed. I know that because of its color it seems to be some sort of metal related to Odium, but maybe there's something more to it than that. 

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4 minutes ago, Shardigrade said:

A thought just popped into my head. Could the strange white-gold blade that Vyre (Moash) uses to kill Jezrien possibly be a dawnshard? It seems to "bind" Jezrien's soul somehow when he is killed. I know that because of its color it seems to be some sort of metal related to Odium, but maybe there's something more to it than that. 

That was my first thought too, but it's been confirmed that it is not. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

The knife used by Moash is "something similar to hemalurgy."

I7Ax [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

Is it a Dawnshard?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

Good question but no.

source

 

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I can see this. The timeline is not that big of a problem. The Aimians could for example have found the Dawnshards somewhere between today and Honors death. Or there is some other reason for why the Dawnshards can’t be used. They might be broken, for example. Honor only said that they couldn’t be used, he didn’t specify why.

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If the Dawnshards are located on Aimia and they are what is assumed to have destroyed Ashyn, I wonder if the Akinah Oathgate might be a little bit special.

If you were fleeing from a planet that was in the process of destruction, while in possession of the items that caused said destruction, what would you do with them? My theory is that Aimia is where the Ashynite refugees first arrived on Roshar and that they immediately hid the Dawnshards somewhere on the island. We don't know what the climate/environment of Aimia was like before the scouring, it is even further west beyond Shinovar and so likely had a similar landscape. The Oathgate map in OB shows people, presumably Ashynites, emerging from a portal onto a land with grass and soil. However, it also shows spren, which Rysn noted were completely absent from Shinovar.

Perhaps Aimia contains the mega-oathgate used originally to arrive at Roshar? If there is one super-fabrial already there, along with other ancient devices such as soulcasters, there might be Dawnshards hidden there as well.

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On 5/26/2018 at 0:08 AM, ZenBossanova said:

I rather suspect that Aimians have something equivalent to a Nahel bond, that allows them to access surges via fabrials.

That reminded me of a question I had - do we have a WoB as to whether Aimians could form a Nahel bond? I’m not asking whether they ever had, since Venli may be the first Radiant who is also Parshendi, but whether it is even possible?

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1 hour ago, heridfel said:

That reminded me of a question I had - do we have a WoB as to whether Aimians could form a Nahel bond? I’m not asking whether they ever had, since Venli may be the first Radiant who is also Parshendi, but whether it is even possible?

Just RAFO's. 

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This is a neat theory(s)! I see two big issues with them though. The first problem is the timeline of Honor not knowing where the dawnshards are and the scouring of Aimia. I do have a possible explanation for this though. First, some Mistborn Secret History spoilery:

Spoiler

Kelsier peers into the spiritual realm and views the ribbons of the future. During this, he gleams some disconnected information. He can see that there is a small chance for victory, even though he can't see the individual outcomes. He's aware that in order to succeed, he needs to steal something from the IRE, but doesn't know what it is, or how it will help. Also remember how Preservation's mental faculties degraded as he died. With this in mind...

Honor mentions he isn't very good at looking at the future, at least compared with Cultivation. Also throw in that at this point he was in the process of dying. What if he could see in the future well enough to determine the current state of events on Roshar during SA were likely to come about, but didn't necessarily know the details on how the world would arrive at that point. What if he was able to determine that Aimia was destroyed by that point and the Dawnshards were lost, but wasn't about to see how/when Aimia was destroyed and couldn't determine what happened to the dawnshards afterwards, so to him they were lost. They could be hidden away in Aimia still, even from Honor's sight.

 

The second problem with this theory is a little harder to explain away. That problem is how the powers of Ashyn fit into all of this. This might be getting a little ahead of myself since we have so little information on Ashyn and maybe Brandon has some secrets that explain everything cleanly, but in the mean time.

WoB as diseased based magic on Ashyn.

Spoiler

Questioner

So I was reading that one of the worlds, I think it was Yolen, is going to be a disease oriented magic?

Brandon Sanderson

It's not Yolen, it's Ashyn...

Questioner

How does that work?

Brandon Sanderson

Viruses and bacteria, various strains of them, have evolved in-line with the investiture on the planet to grant you a magical ability when you catch the disease, because they want you to stay alive long enough to--

Questioner

To transmit it.

Brandon Sanderson

--o transmit it. So it becomes part of the transmission vector. So you have superpowers or whatever-- You can fly as long as you have the common cold, but when you get over it, you can't anymore.

source

WoB on surges in Ashyn

Spoiler

tyler274

Was the planet destroyed by the surgebinders Ashyn/some other Rosharan planet?

Brandon Sanderson

It was Ashyn.

source

So these WoB's confirm that magic on Ashyn in based on diseases that grant superpowers. We also know that surgbinding occurs on Ashyn, from that WoB that surgebinders are responsible for the cataclysm that destroyed Ashyn, and also the possibility that surgbinding might be used in their floating cities. I think it is also fair to guess that the powers granted by the diseases are the surges, considering one example of the powers is that ability to fly. It also seems unlikely to me that multiple magic systems would exist on Ashyn considering no Shards are based that, but this point is not very strong.

The problem? How would a diseased based magic created super weapons that bind things(spren?), and how would those super weapons continue to function once moved from Ashyn to Roshar. The only solutions I see at the moments are, either there are two different magic systems are Ashyn, or the Ashynites have learned to utilize the diseases in a mechanical form similar to another magic system we've seen, although I have know idea how this would work with diseases (petri dish?) or if it would continue to work off-world.

 

On the note of Sibling plus the unmade being the dawnshards, there's not much to support it, but that would still be neat. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Odium has, as I understand it, something like the meaning of God's divine wrath. How is wrath on its own able to cause such terrible destruction? I  mean, he primarily attacked di-Shardic worlds like Sel and Roshar, so could he just have sowed discord between Shards there to an extent of them actually fighting against each other and then just *inaudible*.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good theory, that he got them to fight against each other. I won't tell you whether it happened or not, but it is a very valid theory. It's fully within his capacity; that's the sort of thing that he does.

source

This WoB could support Odium being able to corrupt the unmade away from Honor and Cultivation. I always felt that the Sibling didn't fit in with the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, as those two seemed like personal champions/conduits for Honor and Culti. It would make more sense for there to be other powerful, but neutral, spren instead of just the one. Odium then managed to steal away the nine, leaving the one unique one left. And the Sibling could have been falling asleep by the time of Honor's death, making the statement of the dawnshards being lost valid. The name dawnshards could mean shards of dawn, or creation. They could be spren made by Adonalsium, aka creation or dawn, before the shattering. In this way, they could still be counted as shadows of gods similar to SF or the NW. Might be a bit of a stretch, but #theorytime.

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Quote

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Did the Aimians want Aimia to be scoured?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No. But, doesn't mean that they--some of them may have seen what happened as necessary. But certainly that was not a prevailing thing.

source

 

New WoB

Still not sure what to make of it. But it seems to be suggestive of some theories suggested. Alas, none of my theories. 

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2 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

 

New WoB

Still not sure what to make of it. But it seems to be suggestive of some theories suggested. Alas, none of my theories. 

That's an interesting one. It could indicate the scouring occured in order to obscure the location of the dawnshards. They wouldn't have wanted to do it, but may have considered it necessary. We could make better sense of it if we knew who did the scouring though.

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As for Honor's " without the Dawnshards" comment, I always figured he was either referencing the fact that the Aimians guarded the Dawnshards to the point of being inaccessible, or that without all of them, they couldn't defeat Odium ( assuming that 1 or more is gone)

Edited by Wyndlerunner
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On 5/25/2018 at 5:45 AM, Calderis said:

@galendo I to am in the baseless theory camp that the Dawnshards were corrupted into the Unmade. 

9 Unmade, 10 Dawnshards, with one Dawnshard remaining whole to fulfill this WoB. 

 

ooooooohhhhh interesting. Very interesting. It is interesting that 9 heralds originally broke, 9 dawnshards are the same, 9 unmade. Are they all a coincidence? I THINK NOT

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On 29/05/2018 at 4:21 PM, Wandering Investor said:

Honor mentions he isn't very good at looking at the future, at least compared with Cultivation. Also throw in that at this point he was in the process of dying. What if he could see in the future well enough to determine the current state of events on Roshar during SA were likely to come about, but didn't necessarily know the details on how the world would arrive at that point. What if he was able to determine that Aimia was destroyed by that point and the Dawnshards were lost, but wasn't about to see how/when Aimia was destroyed and couldn't determine what happened to the dawnshards afterwards, so to him they were lost. They could be hidden away in Aimia still, even from Honor's sight.

Yeah, as I said to someone else, the timeline for the Dawnshards becoming unavailable according to Honor and the scouring is the biggest problem. I feel like if there was any chance that the Radiants could use the Dawnshards against Odium, he would suggest finding them.

On 29/05/2018 at 4:21 PM, Wandering Investor said:

The problem? How would a diseased based magic created super weapons that bind things(spren?), and how would those super weapons continue to function once moved from Ashyn to Roshar. The only solutions I see at the moments are, either there are two different magic systems are Ashyn, or the Ashynites have learned to utilize the diseases in a mechanical form similar to another magic system we've seen, although I have know idea how this would work with diseases (petri dish?) or if it would continue to work off-world.

That's actually a really really good point. I hadn't thought of how a disease based magic system would create a tool like what I believe the Dawnshards to be. I had always thought of the disease based magic to be a... result of what happened to Ashyn. Breaking the planet breaking the magic system kind of thing, but I now realise that may not be the case at all.

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7 hours ago, Overlord Jebus said:

That's actually a really really good point. I hadn't thought of how a disease based magic system would create a tool like what I believe the Dawnshards to be. I had always thought of the disease based magic to be a... result of what happened to Ashyn. Breaking the planet breaking the magic system kind of thing, but I now realise that may not be the case at all.

That actually raises several questions #theorytangents. Was disease based magic always on Ashyn, pre-shattering of Adon or pre-Cataclysm? Will massive changes to a world impact magic systems based on that world? As I understand it, magic is created based on the interactions of a shard and the expanse, or maybe cognitive realm, of a planet. So I don't think physical changes to a planet will impact magic; see Scadrial. 

Further thoughts on the subject
From what we know, the disease magic system on Ashyn is based on bacteria(or some other microorganism) evolving(how long would that take without artificial interference?) to grant users(infected) powers. It was sold as, you can infect yourself with a horrible disease, but get an awesome power. So something of a trade off. But it also appears that Ashyn is the original source of the dawnshards, and we also know that they currently live on floating cities. With that in mind, why accept the risk of a horrible disease if you can use it in a mechanical fashion, or if there is another system available. But there is a story about people using the diseases. This would indicate that two systems did not exist together at some point, or the mechanical use of diseases was unavailable, otherwise why use the disease one? 

I see three solutions to this. In the first two, it is assumed Ashyn started with a disease-based magic. The first solution is that people eventually learned how to use the diseases in a mechanic fashion, using external tools instead of using their bodies. The second is that at some point, possibly even before the catalysm, the disease magic was altered, or a new system was introduced, possibly by H&C settling on Roshar or Odium coming to Ashyn. The third solution is that a different power system existed first, then come Odium and the cataclysm, the old system stopped being usable, with relics like the dawnshards and whatever keeps the cities floating still around, and the disease magic was introduced. 

Another tangent, if the cities use magical means to float, how much investiture would that take? What's the powersource? 

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The disease doesn't need to be horrible. Something as mild as a cold could be enough.

Quote

Questioner

So I was reading that one of the worlds, I think it was Yolen, is going to be a disease oriented magic?

Brandon Sanderson

It's not Yolen, it's Ashyn...

Questioner

How does that work?

Brandon Sanderson

Viruses and bacteria, various strains of them, have evolved in-line with the investiture on the planet to grant you a magical ability when you catch the disease, because they want you to stay alive long enough to--

Questioner

To transmit it.

Brandon Sanderson

--o transmit it. So it becomes part of the transmission vector. So you have superpowers or whatever-- You can fly as long as you have the common cold, but when you get over it, you can't anymore.

source

 

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Hmm, the way that WoB is phrased has me thinking of something. Brandon specifically says that the viruses and bacteria have "evolved in-line with the investiture." To me, that sounds as if the disease magic system is an effect of a different magic system and the diseases developed separately from the true magic system. Possibly, that could be how the Dawnshards were created, through whatever the real magic system of Ashyn is.

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On Thursday, May 31, 2018 at 5:41 AM, Overlord Jebus said:

That's actually a really really good point. I hadn't thought of how a disease based magic system would create a tool like what I believe the Dawnshards to be. I had always thought of the disease based magic to be a... result of what happened to Ashyn. Breaking the planet breaking the magic system kind of thing, but I now realise that may not be the case at all.

Possibly the reason for this is that the Dawnshards were always on Roshar, the most important planet in the Rosharan system. My guess is that they were the original keys used to access the 10 surges during the Adonalsium days of Roshar. The parallelism between Dawnshards and dawnsinger is very striking and hints at the ancient origins of both the tools of great power and the people.

Another point in favor of the Dawnshards being native to Roshar are the cymatic cities. If the Dawnshards are or were in fact tools used to access the 10 surges unbound by the strictures of a constraining bond, the use of the Dawnshards controlling the cohesion, gravitation and illumination surges could have been used in conjuction to teraform the land using sonic waveforms to yield the distinctive cymatic patterns seen in all of the Oathgate cities.

Also, if the Dawnshards are as powerful as I believe they might be, they might have been used inadvertently or intentionally to destroy Ashyn from Roshar. The only thing we really know about the shadow days is that we know very little.

If the theory that the unmade are really the dawnshards, maybe these are all related. Maybe Honor used the Dawnshards to bind Odium to Roshar by splitting off pieces of Odium and binding these splinters of Odium to the dawnshards. I know there are some WoBs that state that the Oathpact is not what actually binds Odium to the Rosharan system, but maybe the Oathpact was a necessary component of Honor's plan to control the unmade. Maybe each Herald is likewise bound to an Unmade, and this binding allowed Honor to control the Dawnshards/unmade. And the possible consequence of a Herald breaking was that Odium regained more control over the unmade linked to that Herald.

If this theory is true, then I think the Dawnshard that was not turned into an Unmade is the Dawnshard that controls Adhesion. This would be the most likely super-powerful surge that would have been used to affect the binding of the splinters of Odium and the dawnshards, and would also likely be the dawnshard associated with Ishar and the bondsmiths. This may aslo be why Dalinar would have the ability to free Odium because he could use this dawnshard to unbind the splinters of Odium and the dawnshards. 

 

 

 

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