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[OB] Could Adolin become Odium’s Champion?


Temoo

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I don’t really have any evidence for this assumption, at least not hard evidence. However, in the scene where he accidentally walks in on Shallan in a nightgown, I noticed something odd he said.

 

He said, “...my name is Adolin Kholin, I was born under the sign of the nine...” Knowing Brandon, I wouldn’t dismiss this as coincidence out of hand. We know Braize, Odium’s Invested planet, is related to the number nine. Since Preservation’s number was 16, Honor seems to be 10, while Odium is 9. Nine shadows of his Champion, Nine Unmade, etc. We have WoB on that, can’t find it.

Anyway, what is “the sign of nine”? Why does it happen that a main character, who has had nothing special happen to him as an individual thus far (at least in comparison) suddenly mention this supposedly unimportant fact in passing?

Coincidence? Not likely.

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Personally I believe so as well. Though it's more a feeling without obvious evidence to back it up... IE I have no specific element that lead me to this belief rather it is the overall feel of the patterns surrounding Adolin.

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4 hours ago, Temoo said:

He said, “...my name is Adolin Kholin, I was born under the sign of the nine...” Knowing Brandon, I wouldn’t dismiss this as coincidence out of hand. 

...

Anyway, what is “the sign of nine”? Why does it happen that a main character, who has had nothing special happen to him as an individual thus far (at least in comparison) suddenly mention this supposedly unimportant fact in passing?

Coincidence? Not likely.

I have also been confused as to what the sign of the nine is and have had similar thoughts. Brandon really likes to throw stuff out here like this and I also agree with you that Brandon does not add this stuff lightly. 

A couple things to consider: It could be argued that he showed Passion by killing Sadeas. Adolin has not been shown to be a Proto Radiant and the worst way to hurt Dalinar would be to manipulate his son away from him. The Sadeas death arc has not been wrapped up yet.

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 I was born under the sign of the nine...”

I always took is as being born of the 9th month of the year. 

I'm guessing each of the 10 months are assigned to a Herald like all other 10 references. 

Sign of the Nine could very much just be how my star sign in Cancer for June. 

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7 minutes ago, Kaladin Zahel said:

I like the theory of it being something more, but I always felt like Brandon didn't have Adolin as a big player in his Cosmeric outline.

I have wondered a lot about this - what Brandon's plans are for Adolin.  Adolin has been given a significant amount of screen time and viewpoint chapters so far, and yet he is a pretty... bland character.  There isn't a lot of depth to him.  Because of this, when Adolin killed Sadeas, I thought it was the start of something new - a new story arc for him, because up until that point he had been mostly the same.  I thought it was a foreshadowing that he would become dark and evil, perhaps lying and killing other people in an attempt to cover up the murder.  So I was disappointed in Oathbringer when not a lot of attention was paid to the murder of Sadeas, and Adolin didn't seem greatly changed by it.  

I think that it is possible that something significant lies in Adolin's future, and I still have a hunch (since the murder of Sadeas) that he will go downhill and become a bad guy, but I'm not sure about him becoming Odium's champion - I've always envisioned Moash filling that role.  Perhaps Brandon wants you to think that Moash will become Odium's champion, and then he will surprise us and choose Adolin instead.

Adolin's downwards story arc is in line with what I think will happen with Shallan, which is that she will crash and burn and basically lose her mind.  I can see Adolin's collapse and Shallan's collapse happening at the same time (along with the collapse of their marriage).  Or on the flip side... maybe just Adolin will fall to pieces, and Shallan will pull herself together (perhaps getting together with Kaladin in the aftermath?)... who knows.  

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21 minutes ago, Xtafa said:

@Llarimar

Or Adolin does go Dark and it's actually Shallan who has to kill him, breaking her mind completely.  Ends up becoming a new Herald because hey, hard to break whats already broken. 

This is a good idea, I haven't thought of this before!  For some reason I can easily see the Shallan-Adolin relationship ending in violence, and Shallan has already killed her mother and father so she clearly would be capable of it under extreme duress.  

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2 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

This is a good idea, I haven't thought of this before!  For some reason I can easily see the Shallan-Adolin relationship ending in violence, and Shallan has already killed her mother and father so she clearly would be capable of it under extreme duress.  

@Llarimar Just think of Dalinar. Newly triumphant, having resisted becoming Odium’s Champion, he now has to fight his own son, one who was said to be so much like him. Adolin finally fell to both the pressures of living up to his father’s reputation, and the guilt at the expression of pure hatred he had at Sadeas’ murder, all the while without an ounce of regret.

In fact, knowing Renarin bonded some seemingly twisted spren, it would be fitting Odium’s greatest blow would not be against him directly, but by turning his support, his “Kholin family dynamic” that strengthened him, against him.

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If Adolin does become Odium's Champion, it would have to happen in the Back 5 books in all likelihood (if Odium is still around in those). Though personally, I don't see it happening. The only plot thread that could maybe sorta lead to Dark Adolin is the Sadeas murder stuff, and it's already been established that nobody cares and that Adolin himself saw it as a necessary evil. The trouble here is that Adolin has absolutely no reason to turn. Everything he loves and cherishes is with the Rosharans, and going with Odium would mean betraying all of them. 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Adolin is a good man, and Sadeas deserved what he got. 

I agree, but I thought that the way in which Sadeas was killed was very disturbing, violent and foreboding, and definitely not honorable or dignified.  At least, that's how I read it.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I still feel like it was some sort of foreboding for Adolin's later character arc.  

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

If Adolin does become Odium's Champion, it would have to happen in the Back 5 books in all likelihood (if Odium is still around in those). Though personally, I don't see it happening. The only plot thread that could maybe sorta lead to Dark Adolin is the Sadeas murder stuff, and it's already been established that nobody cares and that Adolin himself saw it as a necessary evil. The trouble here is that Adolin has absolutely no reason to turn. Everything he loves and cherishes is with the Rosharans, and going with Odium would mean betraying all of them. 

Sadly I agree with this - even though I like the idea of Adolin becoming an antagonist there isn't a ton of evidence for it.  The only basis for thinking Adolin will turn dark is the Sadeas murder, and that whole thing kind of fizzled out and didn't leave Adolin with any guilt or regret.  I still want him to turn dark, though, maybe just because I've fixated my mind on it at this point.  

Edited by Llarimar
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Adolin would never turn against his family. They are the number one reason for him doing what he does. He always takes risks, and is always ready to give his life, for his family. The things that might have turned him, such as jealousy over not being a Radiant, doesn’t affect him at all. 

The only thing that could POSSIBLY take him to Odiums side would be the belief that it would, in the end, save his family. I don’t think it will happen though. Adolin trusts the other Kholins, and Odium would have a hard time tricking him.

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On 5/24/2018 at 4:17 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

Adolin trusts the other Kholins, and Odium would have a hard time tricking him.

Nothing in Odium's Intent prevents him from telling the truth, no?

To me, it's far more interesting when there isn't a deception. When the hero-turned-villain character turns because they were tricked, a lot of times it ends up making them look foolish in the reader/viewer's eyes(I know Brandon is a better writer than that, but you still kinda feel it...) It's just so much more powerful and tragic when a hero gets turned by something genuine, because authors can explore the interplay of that.

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On 5/24/2018 at 2:17 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

The only thing that could POSSIBLY take him to Odiums side would be the belief that it would, in the end, save his family. I don’t think it will happen though. Adolin trusts the other Kholins, and Odium would have a hard time tricking him.

I agree that one of the only ways I can possibly see Adolin switching sides is if he saw it as the only way to save his family.  But why does Odium need to trick him in order to do this?  As One Who Connects said...

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

To me, it's far more interesting when there isn't a deception. When the hero-turned-villain character turns because they were tricked, a lot of times it ends up making them look foolish in the reader/viewer's eyes(I know Brandon is a better writer than that, but you still kinda feel it...) It's just so much more powerful and tragic when a hero gets turned by something genuine, because authors can explore the interplay of that.

Maybe Shallan's mind will snap - or perhaps Odium will break her mind somehow - and the only way for Adolin to save her is if he becomes his champion.  Or perhaps becoming Odium's Champion is the only way to save Shallan, Dalinar, Jasnah and Renarin (all people Adolin cares about deeply) from becoming Heralds and being tortured on Braize.  That would be a wonderful way for Odium to subvert the situation and come out on top - instead of trying to avoid the return of the Heralds, he embraces it, and tells Adolin that the only way to stop the torture of his family is by becoming his champion.  

The whole duel of champions things though, in general, seems kind of stupid to me.  Honor straight up said to Dalinar that the only way they could possibly win would be if Odium agreed to a duel of champions.  If that is they only way they could possibly win, why wouldn't Odium just use a different strategy?  Surely Odium himself is more powerful than any champion could be, and I have a hard time imagining that he will just lie down and accept defeat if his champion is defeated.  Perhaps the duel of champions has something to do with Odium's Shardic nature - maybe it's something he can't resist.  

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18 hours ago, Llarimar said:

The whole duel of champions things though, in general, seems kind of stupid to me.  Honor straight up said to Dalinar that the only way they could possibly win would be if Odium agreed to a duel of champions.  If that is they only way they could possibly win, why wouldn't Odium just use a different strategy?  Surely Odium himself is more powerful than any champion could be, and I have a hard time imagining that he will just lie down and accept defeat if his champion is defeated.  Perhaps the duel of champions has something to do with Odium's Shardic nature - maybe it's something he can't resist.  

I think the Stormfather in Oathbringer told Dalinar that the reason Odium would accept the challenge was because he was a Shard and that places some limitations on his actions. What they are exactly is not clear, but I seem to remember something along the lines of the fact that Odium doesn't want to take risks. If he uses another method to destroy Roshar/Escape his confinement he would most likely succeed, but it would take a significant amount of his power to do so. By using a champion, he may be less likely to win, but the price of losing is only time, not a weakening of his power (Which would make the splintering of other Shards more difficult down the line).

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31 minutes ago, Slimy_Slider said:

I think the Stormfather in Oathbringer told Dalinar that the reason Odium would accept the challenge was because he was a Shard and that places some limitations on his actions. What they are exactly is not clear, but I seem to remember something along the lines of the fact that Odium doesn't want to take risks. If he uses another method to destroy Roshar/Escape his confinement he would most likely succeed, but it would take a significant amount of his power to do so. By using a champion, he may be less likely to win, but the price of losing is only time, not a weakening of his power (Which would make the splintering of other Shards more difficult down the line).

Right. My understanding of the implications of the challenge were that Odium may not let on that he is afraid he might lose--or even entirely believe that he can lose--but he does fear losing. Supposing the other side had somehow managed to access other Shards--forge an alliance with Cultivation, for example--or restore the sanity of the Heralds (and, now, replace Jezrien), or something, it would be possible that Odium would actually be at a disadvantage since he refuses to actually take up the power of any of the other Shards. A challenge of champions would ensure that he face only one opponent and thus diminish the possibility for his opposition to have secretly acquired more power than he expected (supposedly). In fact, perhaps part of why Dalinar is so able to resist Odium where most humans have shrunk from him (presumably besides the humans who originally ran from Odium to Honor) is precisely because he sought out the Nightwatcher and became something of a weapon of Cultivation while at the same time being a Radiant under Honor's power.

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Before reading OB, he was my pick for champion.  Based on nothing more than the fact that he rage triggered (the wording in WoR is pretty strong) on Sadeas, I wondered if Odium hadn't influenced him somehow, like if that moment of rage cracked him a bit to let Odium in.

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25 minutes ago, Zellyia said:

Before reading OB, he was my pick for champion.  Based on nothing more than the fact that he rage triggered (the wording in WoR is pretty strong) on Sadeas, I wondered if Odium hadn't influenced him somehow, like if that moment of rage cracked him a bit to let Odium in.

It was all Adolin. 

Quote

Blightsong (paraphrased)

Was Adolin's murder of Sadeas him falling under the influence of Odium, or was that all him?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That was all Adolin.

source

 

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I thought Adolin was a good candidate until the 3rd book. He's way too flawed and actually well-intentioned even with the Sadeas murder. After all one way of a radiant isn't always the same for others and i assume radiants way are honor approved ways.

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It would definitely be interesting if Adolin went evil but I don't really see it. If he does he'll be a force to be reckoned with as a champion though, in a 1- on -1 fight he's a beast. But the same could be said if he's a champion on the good side. If he becomes KR that is, I doubt a non KR (or atleast invested in some way. Like a mistborn or awakener) could pose much of a threat to Odiums champion. 

It seems like something has to be in store for him with how much PoV he's gotten but I have no idea what it is, hoping he revives his blade.

Edited by jefftucker0525
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I still think that long term he is who Odium will make as his champion. I also agree with how much pov has been given to him and what I find super glaring is that he hasn't even attracted a spren yet either. It is possible that Moash could be but my bet is on Adolin more so.

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Honestly, Adolin is  a smart, handsome, kind, and amazing person... :wub:

He would be Odium’s ideal pick as a champion, because he’s so well-connected and loved by his family. However, there would be a flaw in Odium’s plan, if this was the case. As much as his family loves him, Adolin loves them back ten times as much. Something serious would have had to happen for him to turn. I think he might get threatened by Odium to become his champion, most likely by saying that he will harm Renarin, Shallan, or (possibly) their son or daughter.

 

1 hour ago, Odin1981 said:

I still think that long term he is who Odium will make as his champion. I also agree with how much pov has been given to him and what I find super glaring is that he hasn't even attracted a spren yet either. It is possible that Moash could be but my bet is on Adolin more so.

I think Maya will come back to life, and become his spren. She’s becoming more and more alive as the series progresses, and in Oathbringer, she was summoned to Adolin in only 7 heartbeats.

 

(Mentioning @Ishar because we’ve had a discussion about Adolin before, and they might have something to say...)

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Well, I doubt Adolin will become Odiums champion, mainly because there isn’t much hate involved where Adolin is concerned. I feel that most of the signs are definetly pointing at Moash ending up with that position, but it seems a little to obvious.

 

P.S. 16 is not Preservations number. 16 is just an altogether very important number in the cosmere, what with 16 shards etc.

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Moash is way too obvious to be Odium's champ, as is Renarin with the whole corrupted spren, Shallan might serve since Odium would be the easy way out. Mr. T might work as he's cultivation's man, though he doesn't know it. 

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