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[OB] Kaladin vs Vin (2018)


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4 hours ago, IGetLIFTed said:

No. In a ranged fight, Kaladin has every advantage. Vin can shoot metal. Kaladin can shoot... pretty much anything. 

True but Vin can pull her projectiles back, Kal can't so will eventually run out wherever he is. He is also likley to need multiple lashings to make an effective projectile which will burn through his stormlight faster.

There is also the fact that he is unlikely to immediately start a projectile fight with Vin as it isn't his preferred style.

4 hours ago, IGetLIFTed said:

Kaladin can deflect shots with reverse Lashings. Vin cannot.

Again, true. But you have to fact in Stormlight use and reverse lashings are stornlight intensive. Kal can just dodge with stormlight but its all Stormlight use that adds up. Vin can switch between 3 metals to dodge, giving her the edge when it comes to fuel.

4 hours ago, IGetLIFTed said:

Also, Basic Lashings work by changing gravity and affixing it to a certain direction or point, but Steelpushes just push the metal away from you. Kaladin could just aim stuff at Vin with increased accuracy, as the projectiles are essentially falling in her direction.

I believe it is just a direction, which wouldnt be any more accurate than Vin, since he has a lot less practice and cant change it's direction once he lets go, whereas Vin can just by moving or by pulling it back and shooting again.

I am not saying Kaladin would definitely lose but I give Vin the edge based on her fuel most likely lasting longer. Kal's best hope is burn his stormlight to make it into melee range alive and hope fof the instakill.

Once we get to the bonus round and fuel ceases to be an issue, its Kal all the way.

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1 hour ago, Jace21 said:

Again, true. But you have to fact in Stormlight use and reverse lashings are stornlight intensive.

Actually, Reverse Lashings require the least Stormlight of all. From the Ars Arcanum on Reverse Lashings:

Quote

I believe this may actually be a specialized version of the Basic Lashing. This type of Lashing required the least amount of Stormlight of any of the three Lashings.

Quote

I believe it is just a direction, which wouldnt be any more accurate than Vin, since he has a lot less practice and cant change it's direction once he lets go, whereas Vin can just by moving or by pulling it back and shooting again.

This is not true; Windrunners can Lash things to a point. In the prologue of Way of Kings, Szeth Lashed himself to a specific point in space.

Quote

Szeth blinked, Lashing himself to that distant point down the hallway... instead, he was pulled toward that distant point...

I don’t know if moving the point of fixation will affect the Lashing once the projectile is launched, but this system does seem to have more accurate aim than simply pushing an object away from you. If I roll a barrel towards someone, it may or may not go in the direction I intended. However, if I tow a barrel towards me with a rope, it would be hard for the barrel to not come to me.

You also mentioned that Kaladin would run out of projectiles, though he could just fire back whatever metal Vin throws at him.

Lastly, you said that It would take multiple Lashings in order to create effective projectiles. This, however, depends on the distance. You have to remember that Lashing isn’t flying, it’s falling. If a rock or piece of debris falls on you from a few inches in the air, it probably won’t hurt. If that rock falls on you from 10 meters in the air... that rock is traveling at 98 m/s. Ouch. So if Kaladin is really close to Vin, it won’t hurt her much; but for every meter that Kaladin travels away from Vin, that projectile is traveling 9.8 m/s faster (this is just physics btw in case anyone’s confused as 9.8 m/s squared is the acceleration of gravity, and, again, Lashing is simply falling in the wrong direction).

Edited by IGetLIFTed
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7 minutes ago, IGetLIFTed said:

Actually, Reverse Lashings require the least Stormlight of all. From the Ars Arcanum on Reverse Lashings:

Fair enough, I don't have access to my book, I must be getting it mixed up with another type, probably full lashing. Still, it requires constant touch so would be a fairly constant drain if used too much. 

 

7 minutes ago, IGetLIFTed said:

This is not true; Windrunners can Lash things to a point. In the prologue of Way of Kings, Szeth Lashed himself to a specific point in space.

I don’t know if moving the point of fixation will affect the Lashing once the projectile is launched, but this system does seem to have more accurate aim than simply pushing an object away from you. If I roll a barrel towards someone, it may or may not go in the direction I intended. However, if I tow a barrel towards me with a rope, it would be hard for the barrel to not come to me.

 You can read that as point simply meaning the way Szeth sees the direction, but either way it doesn't particularly matter. The point would be a point in space, not a person so homing projectiles are out.

All basic lashings we have seen, at least from what I remember, require touch. So you almost certainly can't change the direction once you let go. That analogy doesn't really work. Vin pushes something directly away from herself, eg. in a certain direction. Kaladin lashes an object in a certain direction, he is still essentially "pushing", the accuracy is still primarily based on his own decision making. Towing something toward you only describes A-iron. He may be slightly more accurate in theory but Vin's skill with projectiles would at least balance it out.

16 minutes ago, IGetLIFTed said:

You also mentioned that Kaladin would run out of projectiles, though he could just fire back whatever metal Vin throws at him.

Sure but it's metal. But unless Vin runs out of metal, no way is he hurting her with one, just making it so she doesn't have to burn iron to get them back. And if she is out of metal he wins anyway.

17 minutes ago, IGetLIFTed said:

Lastly, you said that It would take multiple Lashings in order to create effective projectiles. This, however, depends on the distance. You have to remember that Lashing isn’t flying, it’s falling. If a rock or piece of debris falls on you from a few inches in the air, it probably won’t hurt. If that rock falls on you from 10 meters in the air... that rock is traveling at 98 m/s. Ouch. So if Kaladin is really close to Vin, it won’t hurt her much; but for every meter that Kaladin travels away from Vin, that projectile is traveling 9.8 m/s faster (this is just physics btw in case anyone’s confused as 9.8 m/s squared is the acceleration of gravity, and, again, Lashing is simply falling in the wrong direction).

Firstly, I am pretty sure your math is off. For it to be falling at 98 m/s it would have to have been falling for 10 seconds. Which is going to take lashing it from a lot further away than 10 meters, about 40 I think. But the speed at the point it would connect wasn't my point. He wants to lash it multiple times for two reasons.

1) Because if she is far enough away that there is enough time for it to accelerate naturally by "falling" to a dangerous speed then she has plenty of time to dodge. Probably without magical assistance as it won't change direction, which means Kal is wasting Stormlight and not even forcing her to burn metals.

2) The Stormlight will wear off and cause the object to drop again. He needs the object to either have enough light to make it the whole way or make sure it is already moving fast enough that it will connect anyway. Both of which would require more than one lashing if he wants to avoid 1).

I think ultimately the fight comes down to who runs out of metal/light first. I don't think either of them are likely to die before that so it depends who you think will run out of fuel first but we can't know for sure without it happening.

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41 minutes ago, IGetLIFTed said:

If that rock falls on you from 10 meters in the air... that rock is traveling at 98 m/s. Ouch. So if Kaladin is really close to Vin, it won’t hurt her much; but for every meter that Kaladin travels away from Vin, that projectile is traveling 9.8 m/s faster (this is just physics btw in case anyone’s confused as 9.8 m/s squared is the acceleration of gravity

Actually, from 10 meters, its speed is 11.2 meters per second. Not ouch. For every meter that Kaladin travels away, he gets less bang for his buck. (At 1 meter, its speed would be 3.7m/s, at 2; 5.2, at 3; 6.4.) The physics btw in case anyone is confused is: (final velocity)^2=2×(mass)×(distance fallen)+(initial velocity (use only if you are throwing the lashed object to begin with, otherwise use 0 and ignore this term))^2 Oh, and, 9.8 m/s^2 is acceleration due to gravity at the earth's surface. When you do physics on Roshar, you have to use Rosharan gravitational acceleration (6.87m/s^2).

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33 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

 

Firstly, I am pretty sure your math is off. For it to be falling at 98 m/s it would have to have been falling for 10 seconds. Which is going to take lashing it from a lot further away than 10 meters, about 40 I think. But the speed at the point it would connect wasn't my point. He wants to lash it multiple times for two reasons.

Yeah you're right my math was very off on that one, sorry! My brain loves the complex stuff, but messes up way too often on simple math : )

You're probably right about this one, though I still stick with my overall statement about Kaladin having advantage in a ranged fight because of the Reverse Lashing. Now that I think about it though, Vin's weight is behind the metal she's throwing, so would that mean that the Reverse Lashing would have to be stronger than the force of her weight? 

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1 hour ago, IGetLIFTed said:

Yeah you're right my math was very off on that one, sorry! My brain loves the complex stuff, but messes up way too often on simple math : )

You're probably right about this one, though I still stick with my overall statement about Kaladin having advantage in a ranged fight because of the Reverse Lashing. Now that I think about it though, Vin's weight is behind the metal she's throwing, so would that mean that the Reverse Lashing would have to be stronger than the force of her weight? 

Haha no worries, it happens to us all.

I am willing to give Kal an advantage at range so long as it doesnt last too long. I just dont think the edge is big enough to end it quickly at range, which eventually would favor Vin.

Using a combination of lashed objwcts and reverse lashings to get close could work though.

Reverse Lashing vs a Steelpush is tough. Mainly because steel pushes make no sense. There have been several threads over the years about the mechanics of it and its strange. Do you know how fast a coin would have to move be able to cut into someone deeply enough to kill them? Faster than the weight of someone like Vin should be able to account for.

I am inclined to think that the speed/weight behind the push would make it difficult to stop with a reverse lashing, but you could just strengthen the reverse lashing to counter it.

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16 hours ago, Jace21 said:

True but Vin can pull her projectiles back, Kal can't so will eventually run out wherever he is. He is also likley to need multiple lashings to make an effective projectile which will burn through his stormlight faster.

There is also the fact that he is unlikely to immediately start a projectile fight with Vin as it isn't his preferred style.

Again, true. But you have to fact in Stormlight use and reverse lashings are stornlight intensive. Kal can just dodge with stormlight but its all Stormlight use that adds up. Vin can switch between 3 metals to dodge, giving her the edge when it comes to fuel.

I believe it is just a direction, which wouldnt be any more accurate than Vin, since he has a lot less practice and cant change it's direction once he lets go, whereas Vin can just by moving or by pulling it back and shooting again.

I am not saying Kaladin would definitely lose but I give Vin the edge based on her fuel most likely lasting longer. Kal's best hope is burn his stormlight to make it into melee range alive and hope fof the instakill.

Once we get to the bonus round and fuel ceases to be an issue, its Kal all the way.

Theoretically with a shardblade kaladin can always cut new projectiles out of anything, and they would have the added bonus of not being metal so would not be affected by Vin's pushing and pulling

I will comment on reverse lashing stormlight use further down, but that is a point where a radiant uses all its abilities from one pool while a mistborn draws from multiple pools

WoB confirm you can only lash in a direction, but you can dispel the lashing, and or lash other directions as needed with speed, which Kaladin does on multiple occasions to change direction. WoB below:

 

Balyne
In WoR, when Kaladin is chasing Szeth through the storm, could he have just Lashed himself to Szeth and followed automatically? I realize he was new to his abilities and may not have thought of it, but is it possible?

Brandon Sanderson
One thing about Lashing that is counter-intuative to people who know physics is that Lashings are usually in a direction, not toward an object. It means that physics wise, it's not actually increasing the gravitational pull of an object--but sending you a direction. I did this because of just this type of question; it made the magic too powerful.

15 hours ago, IGetLIFTed said:

Actually, Reverse Lashings require the least Stormlight of all. From the Ars Arcanum on Reverse Lashings:

This is not true; Windrunners can Lash things to a point. In the prologue of Way of Kings, Szeth Lashed himself to a specific point in space.

I don’t know if moving the point of fixation will affect the Lashing once the projectile is launched, but this system does seem to have more accurate aim than simply pushing an object away from you. If I roll a barrel towards someone, it may or may not go in the direction I intended. However, if I tow a barrel towards me with a rope, it would be hard for the barrel to not come to me.

You also mentioned that Kaladin would run out of projectiles, though he could just fire back whatever metal Vin throws at him.

Lastly, you said that It would take multiple Lashings in order to create effective projectiles. This, however, depends on the distance. You have to remember that Lashing isn’t flying, it’s falling. If a rock or piece of debris falls on you from a few inches in the air, it probably won’t hurt. If that rock falls on you from 10 meters in the air... that rock is traveling at 98 m/s. Ouch. So if Kaladin is really close to Vin, it won’t hurt her much; but for every meter that Kaladin travels away from Vin, that projectile is traveling 9.8 m/s faster (this is just physics btw in case anyone’s confused as 9.8 m/s squared is the acceleration of gravity, and, again, Lashing is simply falling in the wrong direction).

Reverse Lashing does cost the least, but it depends on what you are doing. What Jace probably recalled is how Kaladin used all his stormlight to pull all the arrows in the air to his shield to protect bridge four. 

As per the WoB above, you cannot pick a person or object to lash as it would be overpowered. 

Personally I think slicing up the coins into even smaller bits of metal to make them useless to Vin would be better

14 hours ago, Jace21 said:

Fair enough, I don't have access to my book, I must be getting it mixed up with another type, probably full lashing. Still, it requires constant touch so would be a fairly constant drain if used too much. 

 

 You can read that as point simply meaning the way Szeth sees the direction, but either way it doesn't particularly matter. The point would be a point in space, not a person so homing projectiles are out.

All basic lashings we have seen, at least from what I remember, require touch. So you almost certainly can't change the direction once you let go. That analogy doesn't really work. Vin pushes something directly away from herself, eg. in a certain direction. Kaladin lashes an object in a certain direction, he is still essentially "pushing", the accuracy is still primarily based on his own decision making. Towing something toward you only describes A-iron. He may be slightly more accurate in theory but Vin's skill with projectiles would at least balance it out.

Sure but it's metal. But unless Vin runs out of metal, no way is he hurting her with one, just making it so she doesn't have to burn iron to get them back. And if she is out of metal he wins anyway.

Firstly, I am pretty sure your math is off. For it to be falling at 98 m/s it would have to have been falling for 10 seconds. Which is going to take lashing it from a lot further away than 10 meters, about 40 I think. But the speed at the point it would connect wasn't my point. He wants to lash it multiple times for two reasons.

1) Because if she is far enough away that there is enough time for it to accelerate naturally by "falling" to a dangerous speed then she has plenty of time to dodge. Probably without magical assistance as it won't change direction, which means Kal is wasting Stormlight and not even forcing her to burn metals.

2) The Stormlight will wear off and cause the object to drop again. He needs the object to either have enough light to make it the whole way or make sure it is already moving fast enough that it will connect anyway. Both of which would require more than one lashing if he wants to avoid 1).

I think ultimately the fight comes down to who runs out of metal/light first. I don't think either of them are likely to die before that so it depends who you think will run out of fuel first but we can't know for sure without it happening.

Keep in mind that although Vin can maintain a push on a metal object, it is directly away from her. All the lashing would need to do is alter the course enough to miss Kaladin. It would probably need more stormlight than for arrows or spears given the force behind it, but all you are doing is veering it off target rather than stopping it. 

Yes lashing an object at Vin would be picking a direction and letting it go. Difference is Kaladin could choose any direction. For instance Kaladin could put multiple lashes on an object and let it go to curve its trajectory while Vin cannot do that. 

13 hours ago, IGetLIFTed said:

Yeah you're right my math was very off on that one, sorry! My brain loves the complex stuff, but messes up way too often on simple math : )

You're probably right about this one, though I still stick with my overall statement about Kaladin having advantage in a ranged fight because of the Reverse Lashing. Now that I think about it though, Vin's weight is behind the metal she's throwing, so would that mean that the Reverse Lashing would have to be stronger than the force of her weight? 

The lashing would need to be a bit stronger due to the added force behind the push, but I feel since you are still just altering the flight path slightly vs directly attempting to stop it, that it wouldn't require much more. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Keep in mind that although Vin can maintain a push on a metal object, it is directly away from her. All the lashing would need to do is alter the course enough to miss Kaladin. It would probably need more stormlight than for arrows or spears given the force behind it, but all you are doing is veering it off target rather than stopping it. 

I don’t think he would need more Stormlight. You’re right that with Vin, she is pushing metal away from her. Kaladin can probably make the projectiles stray easily, without extra effort. Vin’s weight wouldn’t be fighting Kaladin’s Lashing unless they were directly opposite; as long as the metal is being pushed away from Vin, the Steelpush will keep going without having to fight any other forces, even it isn’t where Vin intended it to go.

Edited by IGetLIFTed
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1 hour ago, IGetLIFTed said:

I don’t think he would need more Stormlight. You’re right that with Vin, she is pushing metal away from her. Kaladin can probably make the projectiles stray easily, without extra effort. Vin’s weight wouldn’t be fighting Kaladin’s Lashing unless they were directly opposite; as long as the metal is being pushed away from Vin, the Steelpush will keep going without having to fight any other forces, even it isn’t where Vin intended it to go.

Because of the increased force and thereby speed of the object in flight, you would need more stormlight to create a stronger lashing effect to cause the path to curve away enough in the shorter period of time that it takes the object to reach you. Not as much as indicated by Jace, but slightly more than indicated by you in my opinion. 

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  • 1 year later...

I'm not sure about round 1 going to Vin: I guess soldier kaladin with spear (beginning of wok) is better than vin at the beginning of her training (assumed he immediatly understands she can push metal)

Edited by Stefano
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Interesting discussion. I would put in that Vin has more experience fighting flying and invested enemies that attack at range, and also could probably use the emotional metals and bronze to some effect in this fight. Specifically, Bronze would make it near impossible for Kal to get the drop on her. And if she can Soothe his protective instincts, she might even be able to force him back into the mindset he was at during the end of Oathbringer (she still does look like a young woman). Duralumin might also play a bit of a part here

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On 7/10/2020 at 8:19 AM, Stefano said:

I'm not sure about round 1 going to Vin: I guess soldier kaladin with spear (beginning of wok) is better than vin at the beginning of her training (assumed he immediatly understands she can push metal)

Vin is one of the most naturally talented allomancers, well, ever. Besides, she's got a rudimentary knowledge of a magic system, while Kaladin doesn't. He's going to probably have a little bit of hesitation or shock, just realizing that this is happening. Also, Vin would kill Kaladin ruthlessly, while killing young girls isn't really Kaladin's style. I mean, he'd probably do it, if he had to, but I'm guessing it would take a bit of hesitation. Also, since there's nothing about the battleground in op's post, I'm guessing that Vin would just assassinate Kaladin in his sleep. Vin trumps Kaladin in round one. 

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It depends on when we are talking.  Starved and enslaved Kaladin vs starved and enslaved Vin is going to have Kaladin as victor.  Current Kaladin vs Ascendant Warrior Vin can be summarized as "he is screwed."

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2 hours ago, nbozb said:

Vin is one of the most naturally talented allomancers, well, ever. Besides, she's got a rudimentary knowledge of a magic system, while Kaladin doesn't. He's going to probably have a little bit of hesitation or shock, just realizing that this is happening. Also, Vin would kill Kaladin ruthlessly, while killing young girls isn't really Kaladin's style. I mean, he'd probably do it, if he had to, but I'm guessing it would take a bit of hesitation. Also, since there's nothing about the battleground in op's post, I'm guessing that Vin would just assassinate Kaladin in his sleep. Vin trumps Kaladin in round one. 

Depends on what part of vin's training we are talking about.

Soldier kaladin can take down a shardbearer with just a lance, early vin couldn't take a soldier alone

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10 hours ago, Karger said:

It depends on when we are talking.  Starved and enslaved Kaladin vs starved and enslaved Vin is going to have Kaladin as victor.  

I mean, I totally agree with that. 

 

9 hours ago, Stefano said:

Depends on what part of vin's training we are talking about.

That's true. I assumed it would be after one or two training sessions with Kelsier. If it was Vin before that, I'd give the victory to Kal.

Edited by nbozb
grammar
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I don't think Kaladin could use Lashings to deflect or to throw back metal objects Pushed at him... Lashing something requires infusing it with Stormlight with intent, i.e., touching it. He can't just stand there and Reverse Lash something flying in his direction, only use a Lashing on himself to get out of the way of it. Which with multiple, small objects would be much harder to do than with a single, large object or opponent.

I still think Vin, as she is by the end of Well of Ascension and having mastered the "horseshoe" combo of Pushing and Pulling on the same objects, what Elend later called "a cyclone of potentially lethal chunks of metal with Vin at the center", would be really, really hard to beat in a fight. She had also witnessed firsthand how Kelsier used a similar combo to shrapnel-cloud and shred an Inquisitor, 

To me the most terrifying Surgebinder of all to face, though, would be Perpendicularlty-fueled Jasnah,, as we saw her at Thaylen Fields. She demonstrated the ability to Soulcast at will, and at a distance. Summoning walls out of thin air? Oil slicks and lighting them at the same time? Are you kidding?

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On 7/14/2020 at 11:15 PM, Karger said:

It depends on when we are talking.  Starved and enslaved Kaladin vs starved and enslaved Vin is going to have Kaladin as victor.  Current Kaladin vs Ascendant Warrior Vin can be summarized as "he is screwed."

I agree.  

No powers, Kaladin wins just based on size and weight.  (I am backing this up with the fact that I am very close to Vin's size, and if someone is bigger than me, I almost never win.)  Powered up - as much as I love Kaladin, he doesn't stand a chance against literally-headbutted-a-man-to-death Vin.

If he has his Sylspear, he might be able to win, depending on Vin's first move.  If she goes in with her knives, I'd say Kaladin.  If it's coins, Vin wins.  If emotional Allomancy comes into play, Vin again.

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