Gasper

New Shard found

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My brother has found something while reading Oathbringer his first time around.

Spoiler

In a conversation between Shallan and Wit/Hoid about his age, he mentions that he was not friends with Wisdom.

Quote

"I am not one of those, for wisdom and I have always been at cross-purposes, and I have yet to learn the tongue in which she speaks." Hoid, Oathbringer. 

Hoid never says anything without a purpose and I think this may be the shard that Brandon mentioned that just wants to survive. It would be tangential to the intent, it is wiser to hide from a stronger foe than fight it out and risk death. And wisdom seems like a likely trait for a creative force or being that would be splintered. That trait would then go and form the intent. The other evidence for this is that Hoid refers to wisdom as a she. And she might not be human given that he oes not know her language, maybe a Sho Del holding a Shard.

This might also be a shard that would support the 17th shard in their hunt for Hoid and might even be the one supplying some of their more exotic abilities and equipment. It would explain how they seem to be able to get places that they shouldn't and live such long periods of time without aging. To draw a even thinner lines, wisdom, if it/she is an actual shard, might be the patron shard of Silverlight, given that it is a city in the cognitive realm.

Does anybody have any other evidence to back this up? Comments, for/against?

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Not new, almost certainly not a Shard.

 

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Huh? I gotta read more of the forums, I thought this was new...

I’m not Gasper’s brother; I do know him irl though and I thought this was a plausible theory.

I gotta get my WoB training regimen up and running. Also, great to see you on the forums, man! Didn’t know you had an account already.

I gotta get my Shard training regimen up and running...

Edited by Walin
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Yea, personifying wisdom is a very old and sacred authors trick. Solomon uses it in the bible, Victor Hugo uses it, Michael Scott uses it. If those great men used it, i think Brandon Sanderson is plenty qualified

haha. But to be honest I’m still freaking out about the whole “survive” shard! Is it Kelsier? Does that explain why he came back to life? And filled the Bands with so much power (at least I think it’s Kelsier, it seemed so very Kelsier like)

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7 minutes ago, The Watcher said:

Yea, personifying wisdom is a very old and sacred authors trick. Solomon uses it in the bible, Victor Hugo uses it, Michael Scott uses it. If those great men used it, i think Brandon Sanderson is plenty qualified

haha. But to be honest I’m still freaking out about the whole “survive” shard! Is it Kelsier? Does that explain why he came back to life? And filled the Bands with so much power (at least I think it’s Kelsier, it seemed so very Kelsier like)

There isn't a Survival Shard. There is a Shard that just wants to survive, yes, but "survival" is at most tangential to its intent.

Also, given we know Kelsier's going to play a role in MB Era 3, and we saw his difficulties in picking up/holding a Shard in SH, it's very unlikely that he's "currently" holding a Shard.

 

Quote

Seonid

I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't--

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Seonid

--out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there.

source

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Are we gonna possibly get another Mistborn: Secret [History]?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, depends on my time. Like, Mistborn: Secret History, I started writing in 2006, and I released it in 2016. So, it took, like, 10 years to get that, because it was a side-project of a side-project. It's, like, so self-indulging, Mistborn: Secret History is.

So, Secret History 2, will I ever have time to do that? Well, it depends on if I can do it in a way I don't feel is interfering with the main Cosmere timeline. Because we would all like to see Secret History 2. But not if it means we don't get Stormlight 9, if that makes sense. It's gonna depend on my writing time, on how I'm feeling about various things. You are more likely to get it the more I work on Era 3, because Kelsier is a part of Era 3.

source

 

Edited by RShara
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10 minutes ago, RShara said:

There isn't a Survival Shard. There is a Shard that just wants to survive, yes, but "survival" is at most tangential to its intent.

Also, given we know Kelsier's going to play a role in MB Era 3, and we saw his difficulties in picking up/holding a Shard in SH, it's very unlikely that he's "currently" holding a Shard.

The only reason he could hold Preservations Shard was because, as Leras says, he isn’t Connected enough with him. So that shouldn’t hinder him from being connected from another shard! The only reason I truly connect Kelsier and The possible survive shard is A) Survive was his fricking motto!!!! He literally says it all the time!!! And B in BoM we see what I believe is Kelsier, so this means he “re tied his string” or got a cool new power (like maybe a shard???) he then supercharges the Bracers with a whopping amount of power! Pretty good indicators he somehow came across a fair amount of power. Oh and he also says he will be back for them, indicating at least functional immortality. All of this could be wrong, of course, if it turns out the guy at the end of BoM isn’t Kelsier

 

heck!! Kelsier is part of Era 3!!! I’m so pumped up now!!!!! My friends are gonna go crazy for that!

Edited by The Watcher
Misspelled Heck and left out important point
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8 minutes ago, The Watcher said:

The only reason he could hold Preservations Shard was because, as Leras says, he isn’t Connected enough with him. So that shouldn’t hinder him from being connected from another shard! The only reason I truly connect Kelsier and The possible survive shard is A) Survive was his fricking motto!!!! He literally says it all the time!!! And B in BoM we see what I believe is Kelsier, so this means he “re tied his string” or got a cool new power (like maybe a shard???) he then supercharges the Bracers with a whopping amount of power! Pretty good indicators he somehow came across a fair amount of power. All of this could be wrong, of course, if it turns out the guy at the end of BoM isn’t Kelsier

Right, but again, the Shard's intent isn't "Survival." It wants to survive, but that's not really related to its intent.

And also, a Cognitive Shadow is always going to have more trouble holding a Shard's power than a fully living person. Even a CS that's found a body again ought to still have that difficulty.

Spoiler

The creature merely laughed louder. “You can barely control it,” Ruin said. “Even assuming it could harm me, you couldn’t accomplish such a task. Look at you, Kelsier! You haven’t form or shape. You’re not alive, you’re an idea. A memory of a man holding the power will never be as potent as a real one with ties to all three Realms.”

The memory in the coin at the end of BoM is certainly Kelsier. But that kind of goes in the opposite direction from your theory? Since he's in a physical body, which a Shard generally doesn't use. Figuring out a way to get himself back into a body is orders of magnitude off from managing to pick up a Shard. There's a couple different ways to get a new body, after all.

The Bands were charged via compounding. Any Fullborn, or a full Mistborn with medallions should be able to make them.

Edited by RShara
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Nice I missed that part Ruin said. No, Shards generally don’t use Avatars but they do. They don’t because it is their greatest weakness, it seems to leave them vulnerable. Such as Preservation finally dying when he appeared in the Physical Realm. But doesn’t Vin use one more often because she is new to the power?

i strongly believe that either Kelsier has picked up a shard himself, and is just limiting himself to hide, or is strongly associated with one. Brandon’s term to allow “survive” to associate with this shard seems to great of a clue, so I will stand by Kelsier either having a shard or getting one in the near future. If he really didn’t want us to think about Kelsier, then he would have corrected Seonids terminology.

btw I’ve enjoyed this discussion.

Edited by The Watcher
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4 hours ago, The Watcher said:

No, Shards generally don’t use Avatars but they do. They don’t because it is their greatest weakness, it seems to leave them vulnerable. Such as Preservation finally dying when he appeared in the Physical Realm.

Preservation died, and a corpse manifested itself, just like Vin and Ati. Death>manifestation, not the other way round.

 

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5 hours ago, The Watcher said:

Nice I missed that part Ruin said. No, Shards generally don’t use Avatars but they do. They don’t because it is their greatest weakness, it seems to leave them vulnerable. Such as Preservation finally dying when he appeared in the Physical Realm. But doesn’t Vin use one more often because she is new to the power?

i strongly believe that either Kelsier has picked up a shard himself, and is just limiting himself to hide, or is strongly associated with one. Brandon’s term to allow “survive” to associate with this shard seems to great of a clue, so I will stand by Kelsier either having a shard or getting one in the near future. If he really didn’t want us to think about Kelsier, then he would have corrected Seonids terminology.

btw I’ve enjoyed this discussion.

I mean, think of Kelsier. When has he ever been able to hide or keep out of the center of attention? If he had a Shard...he would so not be off somewhere hiding.

I don't recall Vin ever manifesting a physical body once she Ascended? She was able to get some power to Elend at the end, but she didn't create a physical body to do that.

Yeah you can definitely believe that and I see why you do. But I don't think the evidence really points that way.

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I feel if it was in reference to a Shard, it would be Captiolised. 

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I'd say it is unlikely Hoid's quote is referring to a shard. He is being tongue in cheek.

On 5/20/2018 at 11:16 AM, The Watcher said:

i strongly believe that either Kelsier has picked up a shard himself, and is just limiting himself to hide, or is strongly associated with one. Brandon’s term to allow “survive” to associate with this shard seems to great of a clue, so I will stand by Kelsier either having a shard or getting one in the near future. If he really didn’t want us to think about Kelsier, then he would have corrected Seonids terminology.

btw I’ve enjoyed this discussion.

I don't think he has had much time to go find a shard. First he was stuck as a cognitive shadow. I assume it took some time to discover how to connect him to a body. Next he spent quite some time being The Sovereign. Kelsier isn't the only person trying to survive. It is pretty clear during the events witnessed in BoM that Kelsier is not a shard. He has a physical body with a spike. I'm sure if he was a shard he could tether his body without a spike.

My current hope is that Sazed realizes having two opposing shards in a single body is worthless, and that he decides to split his power with Kelsier. Giving us Harmony and Discord more stable shardic versions of Ruin and Pressurization both being mixes of the powers.

Also I'd like to point out Kelsier does not often hide. The man faced down The Lord Ruler and battled Ruin. Hiding isn't very Kelsier.

Edited by Fatikis
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4 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

Giving us Harmony and Discord more stable shardic versions of Ruin and Pressurization both being mixes of the powers.

Sorry, this made me snicker ;)

 

Yeah. Kelsier would never go hide somewhere. His idea of Surviving involves making sure he's the top dog.

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32 minutes ago, RShara said:

Sorry, this made me snicker ;)

 

Yeah. Kelsier would never go hide somewhere. His idea of Surviving involves making sure he's the top dog.

Damnation you auto correct!

Edited by Fatikis
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On 5/20/2018 at 8:16 AM, The Watcher said:

Nice I missed that part Ruin said. No, Shards generally don’t use Avatars but they do. They don’t because it is their greatest weakness, it seems to leave them vulnerable.

The 'avatars' that we see Shards create sometimes are only projections that they can use to interact with people, they do not represent a vulnerability. We see Preservation making many such avatars (and we know Harmony does it too) in order to speak with the recently deceased before they go Beyond. While these avatars may be punched, you're not going to kill a Shard that way.

Also, there is a Shard that's actually creating avatars (and using that specific word) although the proper technical term for it would be a Splinter. Autonomy is creating lots of them and it's clearly not putting the Shard as a whole at risk.

Quote

i strongly believe that either Kelsier has picked up a shard himself, and is just limiting himself to hide, or is strongly associated with one. Brandon’s term to allow “survive” to associate with this shard seems to great of a clue, so I will stand by Kelsier either having a shard or getting one in the near future.

As already noted, the Shard in question is not about survival and what Brandon has told us about this Shard is quite literally the opposite of Kelsier's style; The man does not do 'hiding'. Consider his stunt with the Bands of Mourning for example, he created a temple to house them, told his people about it and then ordered them not to go looking for it... so of course they're going to. And he hid the Bands in plain sight. And, y'know, setting yourself up as a (local) god isn't exactly hiding either.

Also, there are Realmatic issues with Kelsier Ascending. He had to cheat in order to take up Preservation's power and even if he's got a proper body again that should take care of some of the problems he had, there's still the issue of Connection, both to Scadrial which makes it hard for him to leave the system and in the negative sense, that he doiesn't have any to the other Shards.

Quote

If he really didn’t want us to think about Kelsier, then he would have corrected Seonids terminology.

What is there to correct? Brandon himself used the 'hide and survive' description first. This doesn't mean he intended to associate it with Kelsier; it's a generic word after all.

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Honestly, the thing that's always bemused me about the so-called Survival shard is that when the original quote was one Shard "just wants to hide and survive", almost universally the aspect of that quote people ran with was survive. That's only half that quote, and since Brandon later clarified the survive part was tangential to its Intent, rather than the focus, its always seemed to me its better referred to as the Hiding Shard. 

All the Shards we know of are fairly distinct with elements of overlap in some of their Intents, but only tangentially and to small degrees. Whereas survival is practically synonymous with preservation, so it was always hard for me to picture how another Shard could have Survival as its primary Intent and not have a ton of crossover with Preservation's Intent.

Whereas a Shard that just wants to hide, or even a Shard that's WILLING to hide at all, says a lot to describe an Intent that's unlike any of the other Shards we know of. What's so different about it? The fact that all the other Shards we know of are practically UNABLE to keep from meddling in mortal affairs to some degree. Even Autonomy, whose Intent (of the ones we know) would come closest to avoiding people or meddling with them entirely. Add to that, all Vessels are ultimately influenced by their Intent...it doesn't dictate all their actions, but it dictates their agenda, which in turn determines their actions.

As an example, we know Endowment prefers to keep out of cosmere wide events and keep to her planet, but I genuinely don't think she'd be capable of simply 'hiding and surviving', no matter how much she wanted to avoid Rayse and his agenda towards other Shards. Her Intent is Endowment, its literally gifting things to others. She can't NOT Endow things to others, which means she can't simply cut herself from any and all others she might potentially Endow things to, no matter her own self-preservation instincts and how much she might want to survive the conflicts the others engage in. All the Shards still have personalities, they're not mindless forces compelled to further their Intent with no regard for their own sense of self and petty wants and desires, so Endowment can still WANT to survive and act towards that, for instance. But due to the influence of her Intent, any steps she might take towards self-preservation would have to take into account how her Intent has influenced her personality to prioritize Endowment as something that's fundamental to her nature. She can 'hide' on Nalthis and try and keep the cosmere-wide conflicts from spilling over to her planet and affecting her in turn, but she can't simply run away to a barren asteroid somewhere and hide and survive, prioritizing her own self-preservation OVER her Intent of Endowment.

Which brings us to a Shard that's even able to "JUST hide and and survive." If survive is tangential to this Shard's Intent, of more focus is the fact that its Intent allows it to want something that's entirely self-sufficient and inward-focused, rather than looking outward to the rest of creation, the way all other Shards we know of seem geared towards, or act along those lines. Brandon's cautioned before not to read too much into his own personal religious beliefs or assume Adonalsium is a direct analog to our ideas of a Christian god. All we know for sure is that its the cosmere's version of the demiurge, the driving force of creation. All sixteen Shards are aspects of that driving force of creation, which explains why all the Shards we know of are so focused on the creation around them and interacting with it in various ways. 

So the better question we should be asking about this Shard IMO, is what kind of Intent can be born OF creation, while not wanting or at least not needing much else to do with creation outside of itself?

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I feel like that Shard is one that we already know: Autonomy. The self-preservation aspect of that Shard’s intent seems to go along with the intent of Autonomy.

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Except that Autonomy is literally doing the opposite of what Brandon has told us about this mystery Shard, and Brandon has said that the 'hide and survive' thing is only tangentially related to the Shard's Intent. Our mystery Shard knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there  Autonomy by contrast is creating Splinters of herself on numerous worlds, including those claimed by other Shards if you assume that 'Trell' is one of her avatars. We know she's directly with at least three (maybe four) worlds and by implication with many more. And she has a very well known 'base of operations' as it were and she is not subtle about it as she's effectively interdicted the system from worldhoppers. That is not hiding.

Also, OB spoiler

Spoiler

Autonomy was the author of the second of the three letters and it's very clear that she is not worried at all about Odium. "Did you expect anything else from us? We need not suffer the interference of another. Rayse is contained, and we care not for his prison  Indeed, we admire his initiative."

So yeah, not Autonomy.

Edited by Weltall
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My best guess for this Shard is something like Serenity, or possibly Tranquility. Note this is NOT the same thing as Peace as an Intent, because I think a Shard with that Intent would not be as likely to just want personal peace for itself, but would be influenced by that Intent to meddle in mortal affairs and spread or perpetuate peace throughout the cosmere. But Serenity is a different matter, and a more introspective Intent.

Like, I'm picturing the aspect of Creation that's simply content with creation, with what exists, with what you've made. The part that decides you're happy enough with things as they are that you can move on to doing or focusing on something else, creating something new, instead of tweaking what's already there or that you just made....but this aspect of Adonalsium, divorced from the rest of the creative urge/process, would be content 'to just hide and survive' because Serenity absent any other creative motivations/compulsions would feel no need or push to do the moving on part, and instead would just find contentment with what already is. I can't think of a more fitting way of describing an aspect of creation that wants nothing other than to exist, which is what I feel is really described by 'just wants to hide and survive'....because if survival is only tangential to its Intent, and its that in combination with just hiding that really describes what that Shard is doing.....we're still talking about a Shard whose Intent, unlike all others we've seen, doesn't seem to drive them to do anything, to have any overall ambition or something they want to accomplish or affect.

Brandon said its smart enough to know what's going on elsewhere in the cosmere and want to stay out of it, but the smart enough part could be a reference to the Vessel and their personal motivations/view of things, rather than a layer of their Intent itself...Serenity doesn't innately have to do with being smart enough to abstain from conflict, just a willingness to, so that WoB could simply mean the holder of Serenity wants to avoid getting caught up in the greater cosmere conflicts and knows that just hiding somewhere else is the best way to do that and survive.....and their Intent allows them to do that, because it doesn't influence the Vessel to explicitly want anything more than that, if its content with that as the status quo for personal reasons.

Edited by ROSHtaFARian2.0
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3 hours ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

My best guess for this Shard is something like Serenity, or possibly Tranquility. Note this is NOT the same thing as Peace as an Intent, because I think a Shard with that Intent would not be as likely to just want personal peace for itself, but would be influenced by that Intent to meddle in mortal affairs and spread or perpetuate peace throughout the cosmere. But Serenity is a different matter, and a more introspective Intent.

Sounds too much like Harmony to me. Seems like the ultimate serenity wouldn't care about possibly dying and therefore wouldn't hide.

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*Shrugs* All Intents are open to interpretation to varying degrees, and I'm less concerned with the actual name of this Intent and more the general direction of its Intent. But Serenity isn't synonymous with apathy, which is more in line with what you're describing. People who seek a state of serenity or inner peace for themselves tend to do so because they want to be happier, more peaceful or more content in life, not because they don't actually care if they live or die. And again, like I said earlier, no Shards are mindless Intents with no personal ambitions or goals of their own, even ones as extreme as Ati, who was completely twisted by Ruin in the end. All his plans were focused on ruin and entropy, but they were still his plans....an actual mind was needed in the driver's seat. So there's no reason a Shard like Serenity's Vessel wanting to hide and survive would be in contradiction with its Intent, or inevitably result in its Intent altering it to the point where the Vessel no longer wants to survive.

Now whether or not such an Intent would overlap with Harmony is a different matter, but I think they're still fairly distinct. Harmony is a positive, affirming word and is frequently used to describe things like 'being in harmony with the universe'. And yes, that could be described as the same sense of serenity, inner peace or tranquility I'm describing for the Hiding Shard. But in practice, what we've seen of Harmony suggests that his Intent leans more towards the definitions of the word that aren't about a state of peacefulness or utopia, but about balance. Harmony is the balance between Ruin and Preservation, and he and Brandon have both frequently talked about how much of his inaction isn't because he doesn't WANT to act, or is content not to act, but because he can't, his Intent has him too bound to trying to maintain a balance between the Ruin and Preservation that combined to form his new Shard. The real reason I don't see Harmony and my take on this Shard as Serenity being too similar is because I only call the latter Serenity because that's an Intent that wouldn't feel any push that would keep it from just wanting to hide and survive. Whereas Harmony from everything we've seen would never be content or capable of just going off into space and hiding and surviving, he and his Intent are both focused on wanting OTHER things to be in Harmony, to spread and perpetuate a sense of balance through his sphere of influence.....its just his Intent limits him in how much he's able to directly influence to make this happen, even as it influences him to want this. Because too much direct influence would upset the very balance he's trying to create....creating Harmony between opposing things requires they find a balance between themselves....if he pushes or pulls too much on one side or another, it would never create true balance between opposites because it would require his presence/influence.

All of which IMO is very different from a Shard who is content to enjoy the universe as it exists, flaws and all, which would be Serenity, but not actually apathy or indifference to whether it survives to continue enjoying the universe or dying. Also, unlike Harmony who is still focused on the external and wanting the universe around him to be in balance, I don't believe a Shard with the Intent of Serenity would feel compelled to 'spread' serenity or make others experience it for themselves....because that's actually antithetical to serenity. A Shard like Serenity might certainly encourage people who came across it in space or came seeking it to embrace its Intent because of the peace it could bring them.....but IMO that Shard wouldn't feel a need to go bringing its message/Intent of Serenity throughout the cosmere, because that would imply that they were dissatisfied with the un-serene state of the rest of the cosmere and thus not actually fully Serene with the world around them as is.

Basically, I'm saying the difference is Harmony accepts that the world around him is NOT fully in balance while still wanting the world around him to BECOME in balance, like him and his Intent, as ideal. Whereas Serenity would accept that the world around it is NOT serene while not necessarily feeling that needs to change, because is usually a result of managing one's own perspective/expectations in order to be more at peace with life and the world as is, rather than expecting either to change in order to be content with them.

Edited by ROSHtaFARian2.0
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10 hours ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

*Shrugs* All Intents are open to interpretation to varying degrees, and I'm less concerned with the actual name of this Intent and more the general direction of its Intent. But Serenity isn't synonymous with apathy, which is more in line with what you're describing.

Serenity isn't apathy. What I'm saying is that someone that represents true serenity would not hide. As you say they'd want to experience the universe. Death is part of the universe and while they would not actively seek it they would not fear it enough to devote themselves to actively hide from it. 

Right now Harmony is in an awkward position as a new shard where the intents haven't overwhelmed his personality. He does not act as Harmony, but instead acts as Ruin and Preservation. So much as to calling people his preservation and his ruin. His every action should be harmonious instead he is trying to play a balancing game with separate intents.

You do make a fair case for Harmony and Serenity being different enough to be separate shards, but I still do not think Serenity would hide. 

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