manaheim Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Thanks for taking the time. Happy Monday! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyk Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Happy Monday to you too! First up, that was a long time spent in a single conversation, most taken up with expository dialogue. There was enough conflict in the situation to keep me reading, but I think you might be better off finding ways to break this up between scenes, and to reveal some of it later. I like the character of Paul - his reactions are surprising yet in most ways perfectly consistent. That said, I'm still finding the tone jarring. I think part of the problem I'm having is with different images of what and who God is. The idea of an Angel of Death serving out murderous justice seems in keeping with an Old Testament, fire and brimstone God, whereas everything else we've seen about this afterlife is more gentle, reasonable and forgiving. Paul, who personifies that gentle reasonableness, is showing no discomfort at the contradiction - he's a gentle, kind man hiring a killer, and I feel like that clash of values needs addressing, whether by him or by Candace. Fine, there's a contract behind all this, but still, is he really so comfortable with it? This conflict in perspectives of what's right is especially noticeable when, on p.12-13, we get to the point of suggesting Candace encourages other people to do the killing. If Candace does that isn't she encouraging others to do things that will damnation them to Hell, by the very logic of this world? That doesn't seem like a fitting tactic for the side of Heaven. I realise that these problems may lie as much in my views on morality as my aesthetic judgement, but I thought it was worth flagging them up. This isn't a matter of how I personally view God (I'm an atheist, so neither interpretation matches my world view), but that doesn't mean my views on what makes right, wrong and consistency won't get in the way of my reading. Oh, and I love the bit where the wings come out. You get both the feeling and practical little details across well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandamon Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 I agree with andyk that the tone is still inconsistent. Whatever your religious (or not) bent, I think people would have trouble accepting saints encouraging murder. Wouldn't they instead coerce them to do better with their lives? Even Batman doesn't kill, and he's a pretty dark character. Things I liked: Still an easy-to-read tone. Consistent characters. They react as I think they should, if sometimes a little dense. Good imagery. I can see what you're describing well. Other things: pg 2: "Candace stared at Paul as if the man was calmly explaining that Chess was played with sticks of dynamite instead of Knights and Bishops." -eh? This put me in the mind of Steelheart and the bad metaphors. You keep telling us how bad Candace was, but stealing religious relics? She's already stated her conviction not to kill. Okay, she's a thief. I would categorize a "bad bad life" as one dripping with the blood of its victims, not with an unknown number of thefts of articles with significance to one particular religion, which may or may not be true. Who knows whose bones are really in more reliquaries? She's still not good, but not that bad. Other supernatural assassins given the chance to kill or go to Hell? Spawn and Ghost Rider. Candace doesn't really measure up. pg 9: "She wondered again at the mysterious tattoo." --wasn't it her tattoo? She knew when she got it, just not exactly how. After pg 12 it starts to drag on a bit with explanation. There's a lot of Paul saying things are required in the mysterious Contract, and I'm getting almost as fed up as Candace that nothing else is said about it. If it's a plot point, say it. If it's a spoiler, wait until later. But don't keep bringing it up and not saying anything about it. Annnd...she doesn't actually know how to use a sword, so she's going to cut her arm off without training, unless that knowledge magically comes with the sword. Overall, I think all this can be condensed a lot. It will keep us questioning things like the Contract and how Heaven works, until you can show us. The more you explain here, the more I'm inclined to poke holes in it. I think as you get into the main conflict of the book, it will become clearer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 I'm still with it, I'm still enjoying it, there are some great lines and ideas delivered dead pan which I think allows the reader to experience some of Candace’s incredulity. I'm feeling the odd off note here and there, but no overriding complaints. One thing that made me stop was the suggestion that she would influence bad people to kill other bad people. Surely that compounds the sin of the person she’s influencing, which doesn’t sound as if it would be within the rules. I'm keen to see what happens when Candace gets back to Earth. You know how I feel about Chapter 1. In addition, given what’s happened since, I think we could do with a stronger indication earlier on of Candace’s badness. You’ve told us she’s a thief, but not shown that to us. Perhaps you could have a prologue that shows her in the act of doing something bad, otherwise all we have is tell not show. Looking forward to Chapter 4, I'm still feeling the potential in the story and looking forward to some action. I like the set up, and I rather like the style, but now is the big test of delivering some payback for my investment in the story and the character – now pressure!! : o ) I note Andy’s issues with the tone and the contradiction, but for me, when considering religion, I think contraction is everywhere, so it’s not jarring for me, but I’ll agree with Andy that you have to deal with the subject – preferably through Candace. I also agree with Mandamon on the contract – I'm certainly not recommending a lengthy exposition on that subject, and I don’t mind you dropping hints, as long as they’re followed up on later, but I would question Candace being willing to launch into her new career without insisting on knowing more about the contract. --------------------------------------------------------- Page 3 – ‘You wanna talk about things to ram...’ – I don’t think the contraction ‘wanna’ is necessary, it sounds very thick accent-wise, and I don’t get that from Candace. Page 4 – ‘The entire world was a naked machine...’ – that’s a great line. Page 4 – ‘...lived a bad, bad life...’ Page 4 – ‘I don’t think you have any idea just how much damage you have done.’ – I like this line, because it cuts to the heart of an issue of mine. I’ve never had any sympathy for thieves in fiction – Sopranos, Goodfellas, Bonny and Clyde, Jordan Belfort? Hang ‘em all high. People stealing stuff from good people are bad people and should be treated accordingly. Although you allude to this in earlier chapters, I don’t think there would be any harm in a vignette or an aide illustrating that she is indeed a thief and had gotten gains in an ill way. Page 4 – ‘...was of particularly of note.’ Page 4 – ‘The only thingAll that saved you from that fate was were your recent attempts to make amends.’ – Grammar Police, book him, Danno. Page 5 – ‘...why doesn’t he just kill these people himself?’ – How about ‘smite’, smite’s a good word. Page 6 – ‘...launching into a huge explanation of what The Contract is, and why, is not going to do you any good.’ – LOL, this statement is very Meta, Paul is quite right. I don’t think we need a big chunk of exposition at this point! Page 6 – ‘...a gentle kindness in his eyes...’ – Really? I'm not getting that. Page 7 – ‘If I’m an angel, shouldn’t I have wings?’ – I badly wanted him to tell her that she had to earn her wings, like Clarence in ‘It’s a Wonderful Life’ – except if the movie had been directed by Sam Peckinpah instead of Frank Capra. Page 8 – ‘They don’t make those things anymore, you know.’ – No way, man, vinyl will never die!! Page 10 – ‘Frankly, it’s considered a little gauche.’ – LMAO Page 10 - “I can’t kill. I don’t kill. Ever. Not ever.” – Felt repetitive to me, we’ve been there before. Page 12 – I find Candace’s frequent references to hell as an epithet unlikely in her situation – I would have thought that would stick in her throat given where she is and who she is with. Page 13 – I don’t mind the swearing as a principle, but I think care is required when using it. I don’t like the use of the word ‘crap’, I don’t think it fits. Page 18 – Monk? What monk? Where did he come from? I didn’t understand at first that this was a reference to Paul. Surely, he is not a monk. I was assuming this was the Paul the Apostle. I'm struggling to believe that a monk would have this level of influence and authority. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manaheim Posted March 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 These are all really helpful comments. I just want you to know that I'm silent mainly because I'm processing them and trying to decide what to do with them. I think I'm going to have to make a few surgical changes. I'm probably going to have a few questions for you guys if you don't mind? Some thoughts on how to handle some stuff. Thanks again for taking the time and leaving me some feedback. REALLY appreciate it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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