Long Game 45: The House War

[Walin]

Ok, I think I'm going to have to withdraw from this game until further notice. I will still post enough to prevent my death due to the inactivity filter, unless my faction wants more power. I've got some procrastination issues and I hope that maintaining minimal, rather than normal, activity here will help me to get my work done.

As I said last time, I'll be more fully active about six days from then, but I want to make it official that I am "withdrawing" from the game, if anyone wants to step in as a pinch hitter.

[Bort]

10 hours ago, Araris Valerian said:

I know that Itiah has been threatening players in the night with a "coalition", which doesn't sound very fun.

But didn't it sound like fun during Night Two, when you suggested that Snipexe died?

Also, isn't that exactly what you were trying to do in your post earlier, where you voted for Itiah - "Ripplegylf, you and your House should vote this way too."

Edited May 16, 2018 by Bort

[I think I am here.]

Storms, these accusations are getting me to do stuff I don't want to do.

I'm in Snipexe's house. I know that means I just put myself at a great risk by revealing my alignment, but I need to say it so you guys can understand that if I led a two-house lynch, I wouldn't vote against my own house member! Proof:

On Night One, his ball PM was with Dalinar Kholin, RippleGylf, Bort and Eternum. He told us this in a doc.

On Day Two, he wanted to vote Bort because he didn't know what Pokemon Gold and Silver were. I know this because he told me. In a doc.

Edited May 16, 2018 by I think I am here.

[Steeldancer]

Ok. So clearly we have have some craziness going on here. I feel totally out of the loop here, but I'm seeing a couple things here. 
Clearly, Itiah and Bort, and probably Cad Com are both in the same house. Araris is in a different house. It sounds like Itiah threatened some people with a coalition, but Itiah is denying it, and Bort is saying Araris is doing that same thing. Frankly, I feel like Itiah and Bort are being the much more antagonistic individuals. Araris seems pretty chill about this, and now that he's mostly exposed, I'm not entirely seeing what the big deal is. I am much more nervous about a house that is directly threatening people. So, I'd be fine with Araris dying, but personally I feel Itiah might be the bigger threat. I much prefer quiet stabbing than threats and grand gestures. I had assumed since Walin exposed himself that he would be more of a target, but as it seems that he is going more or less inactive, I'm going to assume he's no longer a priority. 

And, I was ninja'd. Pooh. 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Steeldancer

[I think I am here.]

On Day Two Snipexe soothed Mark IV's vote and on Night Two he soothed Mac's. Look. If this doesn't explain I'm in Snipexe's house and I don't own a two-way lynch, I don't know what does.

Damnation, I don't want to die.

[Steeldancer]

Just now, I think I am here. said:

On Day Two Snipexe soothed Mark IV's vote and on Night Two he soothed Mac's. Look. If this doesn't explain I'm in Snipexe's house and I don't own a two-way lynch, I don't know what does.

Damnation, I don't want to die.

You being in Snipexe's house changes nothing for me, personally. It's the threatening people that makes me nervous. I've played with Araris before, and even if I'm not sure if he's 100% telling the truth, it doesn't feel right for him to have made something like that up. 
Also, does anyone ever really want to die? Not really. 
But, please, keep giving me the information. Helps me feel a little less out of the loop. 

[RippleGylf]

Itiah, what the storms? I don't have any active or allomantic abilities, why waste time killing me off?

[Mark IV]

9 hours ago, I think I am here. said:

You vote for me because you think killing me will stop this supposed two-house lynch you guys dreamed of? Problems:

1. I don't lead a coalition

2. I haven't threatened anyone

3. I don't want to kill Ripple

4. I'm far from the most dangerous person here.

 

@RippleGylf

Itiah's not trying to kill you. I'm not too sure why you're voting for him.

[I think I am here.]

Oh, storm. Ok, I'm going to die, let me say stuff first.

I told Arinian two houses were going to vote for him. I did.

I wasn't the one who decided it though. When he was lynched, it was two houses, mine and another. When Snip was lynched though, it was two others, as it was my house that got attacked. Blaming me on Snip's death is unwarranted, I should think. Doesn't matter now though.

So... it's true, I talked to Arinian. I honestly never meant to threaten him, I was just part of the two-way lynch and wanted to get info on him as quick as possible, using my tineye power to an advantage. I admit I did it in the stupidest way possible, it is my first trying something like this out, and I really didn't want to start it out by making enemies.

So coming clean, at least I can die truthful.

Edited May 16, 2018 by I think I am here.

[Bort]

I could fill in a few gaps about Snipexe's death. That was requested by Araris, through his Romantic contact in our House.

Out of the ten votes he ended up with on him, there were 8 names (ok, granted, all of the names were anonymous, but still). This suggests 2 Orators.

Four of the votes on Snip came from our House, while we were experimenting to see if working with Araris' House might be feasible (not really, so far we've had requests to kill Snip and Itiah (but no reasoning), as well as lies, but no useful information), leaving the other 6 coming mostly from House Elariel. I believe one of the Orators to vote on Snip was Arinian, and I assume one of the others was Araris (Edit: meaning other voters, I'm not implying that he is the other Orator, although this might be possible).

I don't know who the other Orator is, but it looks like they voted along with us for Snip's death.

Wait, so Itiah, you PM'ed Arinian? That might explain why Araris requested of us that we all voted for you.

Bit hypocritical, isn't it, Araris? Trying to do the exact thing you were complaining about earlier, about 'coalitions' not being 'fun'?

Edited May 16, 2018 by Bort
Edited for clairification

[Shqueeves]

Araris(3) - Bort, Itiah, CC

Itiah(6) - Mraize, Araris, Mac, Elandera, Steel, Ripple

[Steeldancer]

40 minutes ago, Bort said:

I could fill in a few gaps about Snipexe's death. That was requested by Araris, through his Romantic contact in our House.

Out of the ten votes he ended up with on him, there were 8 names (ok, granted, all of the names were anonymous, but still). This suggests 2 Orators.

Four of the votes on Snip came from our House, while we were experimenting to see if working with Araris' House might be feasible (not really, so far we've had requests to kill Snip and Itiah (but no reasoning), as well as lies, but no useful information), leaving the other 6 coming mostly from House Elariel. I believe one of the Orators to vote on Snip was Arinian, and I assume one of the others was Araris (Edit: meaning other voters, I'm not implying that he is the other Orator, although this might be possible).

I don't know who the other Orator is, but it looks like they voted along with us for Snip's death.

Wait, so Itiah, you PM'ed Arinian? That might explain why Araris requested of us that we all voted for you.

Bit hypocritical, isn't it, Araris? Trying to do the exact thing you were complaining about earlier, about 'coalitions' not being 'fun'?

I don't really feel like a coalition. I just see a mutual threat. Araris isn't directly threatening saying "do this or I'll get you lynched," which is what Itiah did according to him. As I said before, given his less competitive playstyle, I'm inclined to believe he isn't making it up. I almost am a little put off by you putting that spin on it. 
Also, if what you say is true, then you and Itiah aren't in the same house. That both instantly messed up my guesses and makes me wonder why you are so dead set on killing Araris. I would feel like people should be pretty fluid about where their vote goes, as long as it's not on a member of their house. Why would you not want Itiah dead? What benefit does it bring you and your house? 

[Bort]

Keeping Itiah alive? It brings no benefit to our House, but then, nor does keeping Araris alive, and out of the two, I found Araris' actions more offensive than Itiah's.

Also, Itiah's threat on Ripple only came from Araris. Nothing I have seen suggests that Itiah wants to kill Ripple at all. Even when he brought up the prospect of Ripple being an Orator in one of our night ball PMs, he was worried about her vote manipulation, until it was proved to him that Ripple couldn't be an Orator. After that, he didn't mention her again, so I don't see where Araris is getting it from.

You are inclined to believe 'he didn't make it up' when in the very same cycle as you said this, Araris all but admitted it was fine to lie when manipulating people in SE? Also, his 'less competitive' style? Araris is among the more bloodthirsty players we see playing SE. Go read his cycle one, day one posts. From any game.

I'm guessing this means you are an Elariel too?

[Steeldancer]

Just now, Bort said:

Keeping Itiah alive? It brings no benefit to our House, but then, nor does keeping Araris alive, and out of the two, I found Araris' actions more offensive than Itiah's.

Also, Itiah's threat on Ripple only came from Araris. Nothing I have seen suggests that Itiah wants to kill Ripple at all. Even when he brought up the prospect of Ripple being an Orator in one of our night ball PMs, he was worried about her vote manipulation, until it was proved to him that Ripple couldn't be an Orator. After that, he didn't mention her again, so I don't see where Araris is getting it from.

You are inclined to believe 'he didn't make it up' when in the very same cycle as you said this, Araris all but admitted it was fine to lie when manipulating people in SE? Also, his 'less competitive' style? Araris is among the more bloodthirsty players we see playing SE. Go read his cycle one, day one posts. From any game.

I'm guessing this means you are an Elariel too?

Nope, I'm not Elariel. I wouldn't feel out of the loop if I was. 
Let me explain, yes he is bloodthirsty, yes he will lie. But even as an elim, he deliberately will let the village have a chance in order to make sure the game is fun. This is getting into the more meta side of things, but he plays more to have fun. He does not play in such a way as to be so aggressive that other players feel they aren't having fun. I've seen that first hand more than a couple of times. So, I trust him slightly more than the people being really aggressive in thread, ex. you and Itiah, even if I don't trust him as to like claim to him or something.  

[Bort]

Just now, Steeldancer said:

Nope, I'm not Elariel. I wouldn't feel out of the loop if I was. 
Let me explain, yes he is bloodthirsty, yes he will lie. But even as an elim, he deliberately will let the village have a chance in order to make sure the game is fun. This is getting into the more meta side of things, but he plays more to have fun. He does not play in such a way as to be so aggressive that other players feel they aren't having fun. I've seen that first hand more than a couple of times. So, I trust him slightly more than the people being really aggressive in thread, ex. you and Itiah, even if I don't trust him as to like claim to him or something.  

I'll admit, I'm being a bit more aggressive in this cycle than I usually am, but that is because I don't want to see a repeat of the events I mentioned in my first post, where I accused Araris. The rise of House Urbain in a game several years ago (in which Araris was involved) absolutely ruined the game for a number of people, not the least were those whose teammates had betrayed them at the prompting of Araris and... someone else, but I'll admit I forget who - No-one in this game at least, well, barring name changes, I guess (This was actually one of the incidents that led to me quitting SE for a while). I felt most sorry for the GM though. All that effort put into creating, organizing, and running a game, only for the players to take the piss like that.

You say he plays to have fun and not spoil it for others, yet he has done exactly that in the past, playing to have fun, without a care for the other players. He says he doesn't want to play like that, yet that didn't stop him claiming Urbain, just like happened last time, so when it came out that he isn't, in fact, Urbain, of course I reacted to it.

Maybe he is more considerate now than back then, but that doesn't change my points about him lying, and being murderous.

[Steeldancer]

Just now, Bort said:

I'll admit, I'm being a bit more aggressive in this cycle than I usually am, but that is because I don't want to see a repeat of the events I mentioned in my first post, where I accused Araris. The rise of House Urbain in a game several years ago (in which Araris was involved) absolutely ruined the game for a number of people, not the least were those whose teammates had betrayed them at the prompting of Araris and... someone else, but I'll admit I forget who - No-one in this game at least, well, barring name changes, I guess (This was actually one of the incidents that led to me quitting SE for a while). I felt most sorry for the GM though. All that effort put into creating, organizing, and running a game, only for the players to take the piss like that.

You say he plays to have fun and not spoil it for others, yet he has done exactly that in the past, playing to have fun, without a care for the other players. He says he doesn't want to play like that, yet that didn't stop him claiming Urbain, just like happened last time, so when it came out that he isn't, in fact, Urbain, of course I reacted to it.

Maybe he is more considerate now than back then, but that doesn't change my points about him lying, and being murderous.

Now here's where I'm confused. I have no idea what game that is. What I do have is how he's played recently. Specifically, the one that sticks out was LG35, where he very deliberately killed off less active villagers in order to give us a chance. (We still lost, but that was our own fault.) The Urbain thing... I don't know anything about it. I probably never even read that game. I assume he did it because maybe he remembers it fondly, or he was deliberately trying to confuse people. I mean, maybe you do have negative memories about that game, and that's why you're biased against him. But in recent games, I've been far more aggressive than I've ever seen Araris be. So perhaps he used to play that way, but he doesn't anymore, between that and how he played AG4. 

[Bort]

I think it was MR6, but it could have been the LG that was running around that time too. They both had Araris, and they both had House Urbain, I just don't recall which one was supposed to have Urbain and which wasn't.

We are talking way back in 2015 here.

Edit: I did try to look it up, but without all of the docs and PMs involved, it was impossible to say for certain.

It's much the same reason I voted for Shqueeves in cycle one. I find his lack of name disrespectful. Not to me, but to the GM, who put the effort into creating and running these games. Being unable to come up with a name, or worse, deliberately screwing over the game for your own amusement, doesn't show the GM the respect they deserve.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Bort

[+ElephantEarwax]

14 hours ago, Elandera said:

 Honestly, who of us hasn't lied during SE?

You're right. You got me. I didn't actually enjoy the ball on the first night.  

Edited May 16, 2018 by ElephantEarwax

[Steeldancer]

8 minutes ago, Bort said:

I think it was MR6, but it could have been the LG that was running around that time too. They both had Araris, and they both had House Urbain, I just don't recall which one was supposed to have Urbain and which wasn't.

We are talking way back in 2015 here.

Edit: I did try to look it up, but without all of the docs and PMs involved, it was impossible to say for certain.

It's much the same reason I voted for Shqueeves in cycle one. I find his lack of name disrespectful. Not to me, but to the GM, who put the effort into creating and running these games. Being unable to come up with a name, or worse, deliberately screwing over the game for your own amusement, doesn't show the GM the respect they deserve.

Clearly you have some very different opinions than me. Even if Araris played like that, 3 years is more than enough time to have a change in playstyle. I doubt Araris or Shqueeves did it to mess with the GM. I mean, I've GMed before, and I wouldn't be offended by someone not having a character name. I would just incorporate him as Shqueeves. Furthermore, Straw doesn't seem as big on the writeups as I might be or like Joe or Hero. So while I sort of see where you are coming from, I don't see any of this as screwing with the game for their amusement. 

[Bort]

Admittedly, I was expecting more write-ups, so the lack of name is less of a bother due to that. And you might be right about Araris changing his play style, and I might be overreacting to his use of House Urbain again. It might all be innocent.

But, other than the last two games in which I died very quickly, I haven't played SE for a few years now, so I haven't seen any change of play style.

As for "screwing over the game for his own amusement," I wasn't talking about just claiming House Urbain, I was talking about claiming House Urbain, then putting together a group of friends all under the Urbain name, just to mess with the game, the rules, and the other players. That's the part that screwed with the game. I don't see it in this game, I'll even admit that, but then I didn't see it in the previous game I spoke of until it was too late. That, I imagine, would even annoy the GM.

But, I'm not really seeing anything from Araris himself that suggests he has changed much, so only have your word to go on for that. Not enough to make me shift my vote.

Edit: It doesn't really matter why they did it, that they did it is enough. When you've got someone spending their time putting together a game for others to play, the least the players can do is come up with a name, or agree to abide by the rules, don't you think?

Edited May 16, 2018 by Bort

[Steeldancer]

5 minutes ago, Bort said:

Admittedly, I was expecting more write-ups, so the lack of name is less of a bother due to that. And you might be right about Araris changing his play style, and I might be overreacting to his use of House Urbain again. It might all be innocent.

But, other than the last two games in which I died very quickly, I haven't played SE for a few years now, so I haven't seen any change of play style.

As for "screwing over the game for his own amusement," I wasn't talking about just claiming House Urbain, I was talking about claiming House Urbain, then putting together a group of friends all under the Urbain name, just to mess with the game, the rules, and the other players. That's the part that screwed with the game. I don't see it in this game, I'll even admit that, but then I didn't see it in the previous game I spoke of until it was too late. That, I imagine, would even annoy the GM.

But, I'm not really seeing anything from Araris himself that suggests he has changed much, so only have your word to go on for that. Not enough to make me shift my vote.

Edit: It doesn't really matter why they did it, that they did it is enough. When you've got someone spending their time putting together a game for others to play, the least the players can do is come up with a name, or agree to abide by the rules, don't you think?

Yes, totally. But, that was a long time ago. And I very much doubt the moderators would put up with something like that happening. So yes, abiding by the rules is a good thing. But I feel like you're applying the old meta to this, and it's not really applicable. 

[Bort]

1 minute ago, Steeldancer said:

Yes, totally. But, that was a long time ago. And I very much doubt the moderators would put up with something like that happening. So yes, abiding by the rules is a good thing. But I feel like you're applying the old meta to this, and it's not really applicable. 

It was a long time ago, and they put up with it once before.

Yes, the meta might have changed, but I've not been back long enough to figure out what the new meta is, other than that it seems to be quite a bit harsher than it used to. Day one poke and silly votes used to be a good-natured thing. Now, it's enough to get you lynched. So, which meta am I supposed to consider while playing? The one I know from before, or the one I don't yet know? If you say the latter, I'll be happy to listen to you explain how I am meant to know what the new meta is when people keep killing me. And given that I do view the current meta as harsher and less forgiving, why is it a stretch for me to believe that Araris might be able to get away with House Urbain shenanigans in a game?

But, this is getting way off topic and derailing the thread... We are supposed to be discussing who to kill. My vote is staying on Araris, and I assume yours is staying on Itiah.

[Araris Valerian]

Bort, I'm not sure what you're talking about. I don't think I've ever tried to subvert the win conditions of an SE game. I think you may be referring to the Urbain Revolution in MR6, but I was dead pretty really on in that game and nobody was (at least in thread or the dead doc) upset about what Gamma, who is the SE semi-official head of House Urbain, did.

Also, as has been noted, while I may be responsible for some deaths this game, what I've done is equivalent to sending in a kill order (one that isn't guaranteed to hit, albeit). That's different from threatening a player. If I want somebody dead, hopefully they won't know about it until their name shows up in the writeup.

As for my personal playstyle, I have definitely seen too many GMs frustrated with their games getting broken to want to try and subvert win conditions. There was a "faction" game recently where each House could only have a single victor, unless you ate them with a Kandra. D1 somebody proposed that we sit around and farm enough atium so that everyone would win. I adamantly opposed that, because it was a clear subversion of the game the GM intended (and because it would be really boring).

[Bort]

Araris, we have only your word that Itiah was threatening, while also aiming at a target that he had no reason to. Why would he do that? Whereas you have not only been caught lying, you have blatantly admitted as much. Why would people believe you were telling the truth here, but not earlier?

It might be MR6 I am thinking of, as I said earlier, either MR6 or the LG that was running around the same time. I've not been able to access all of the details from those two games, since there were docs and PMs involved, but one of them was the Urbain 'revolution' as you put it, and the other also had you and House Urbain in it, so whether you were directly involved or not, it did strike me as suspicious when you first claimed Urbain.

And yeah, some people were upset about it, me for one, but since people seemed willing to accept it, I went along with it. Besides, how do you complain when one of the SE moderators starts screwing over the game you are playing? Or was Gamma not a moderator back then, it was quite some time ago? Either way, he was (and you were) far friendlier with everyone involved than I was, so I didn't really feel I could complain about it. I'd have been furious if I had been GM'ing the game.

Now, House Urbain once again turns up in a game where you are playing, and House Urbain isn't.

By this point, I'm willing to believe it was just a misdirection thing, with no ulterior motive, but there isn't any reason for me to move my vote off you either, so it stays put.

[CadCom]

I don't mean to change the subject, but can we all agree that

1. Bort didn't trust Araris, due to Araris being associated with a House Urbain in a past game, at nearly the same time that a coup was held within that game. 

2. Araris no longer plays like that

3. Bort didn't know that Araris no longer plays like that, but now does understand. 

4. Bort will still continue to vote for Araris because (1) araris Lied about his house alignment.(one form of concealment) and (2) Araris seemed to be involved in lynching Snipexe, which is the reason Araris is claiming to Lynch Itiah, apart from not being in Itiah's house. 

Now, can we get back to the game at hand, instead of MR6, or the LG at the same time?