MoS03

[OB] If Harmony could have joined as Discord...

22 posts in this topic

With the revelation that Odium could be seen as Passion, and the older theory that Odium+Honor would be Justice...

Honor focuses on creating bonds, and Odium possibly being Passion, could their joining create... Love? 

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Aona held devotion, a synonym of love, so I doubt it would be something so similar. I also believe Odium is an unreliable (lying crem-bag) source at best. Also, OB spoilers must be in spoiler tags because this thread is not marked for Oathbringer spoilers.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/205-vericon-2011/#e4539

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6 hours ago, MoS03 said:

With the revelation that Odium could be seen as Passion, and the older theory that Odium+Honor would be Justice...

Honor focuses on creating bonds, and Odium possibly being Passion, could their joining create... Love? 

I think Passion is a lot different than love. Honor and Odium doen't seem like a loving combination.

It seems like a terrifying judgmental god. You break a law. Suddenly you have the wraith of your god upon you. Good reason for it? This combination doesn't care. Stole food because you were starving? You should have died with Honor.

Edited by Fatikis
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I agree, that does sound terrifying! However, Odium, or Passion, could be viewed as "Strong Overpowering Emotion", while Honor could be seen as "Creates Bonds Between People".

If Harmony could have been Discord, why couldn't Honor+Passion be Love? Or even Tyranny.

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33 minutes ago, MoS03 said:

If Harmony could have been Discord, why couldn't Honor+Passion be Love? Or even Tyranny.

Brandon has said that Devotion can be seen as a synonym for Love, so it would be highly unlikely for that specific Intent to emerge from a combination of other Shards when it's already accounted for. Honor plus Odium equaling Justice isn't impossible but I suspect that combo would be more Honor/Dominion, while Honor/Odium seems like it would be more a 'righteous anger' sort of thing. Indignation?

Anyhow, the thing with Harmony having a drastically different possible Intent likely stems from it being a combination of two existing Intents and how they interact as mediated by the Vessel. I don't think that Odium could genuinely be mediated in a way to turn it into a synonym for Love or anything nearly that positive. Brandon has hinted that Odium is to an extent lying to himself when he thinks of his own Intent as Passion and we have Frost's own description of the essence of that Shard as 'God's own divine hatred' which is pretty cut and dry.

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Well, damnation.

Was a neat idea! Ty for the link to the WoB. I kinda liked the idea that Odium was passion, but his own hatefulness influenced the shard. Ah well, back to my ponderings.

I'm beginning to feel that between WoBs, and more books, that we are running out of things to discover.  And then Brandon hits us with a new book, and blows our minds every time!

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On 5/10/2018 at 5:30 PM, Weltall said:

Honor plus Odium equaling Justice isn't impossible but I suspect that combo would be more Honor/Dominion, while Honor/Odium seems like it would be more a 'righteous anger' sort of thing. Indignation?

I've always seen it as Justice if Honor is dominant, and Wrath if Odium is dominant. Divine Wrath was a form of "Justice," usually against those who "deserved it," so it seemed a reasonable split.

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I personally don't like this idea.  Justice should be blind, and apply equally to all.  It should be passionately pursued, but it should not be hateful or odious.

 

A passionate enforcing of the bonds of law?  Well, we have Skybreakers for that - the Justice aspect of Honor distilled into a league of law abiding vigilantes.  Except they aren't really vigilantes if they have been granted authority to act - the gray area is finding out whose authority they are using.

 

But Odium is not Passion.  He is Odium.  Adonalsium's divine hatred separated from all else that gave it context.  Mix intense hatred with Honor, I don't believe you get Justice.  Justice comes from Honor and a little bit of Cultivation.  Honor and Odium?  That spells Vengeance to me.

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44 minutes ago, Stark said:

I personally don't like this idea.  Justice should be blind, and apply equally to all.  

That is a bold statement though. Take for example the case of a woman who shoots her husband. We use compassion to determine whether or not it was justifiable homicide. Many courts have put in rules to determine justifiable homicide, but those rules are an attempt at codifying compassion. 

Or take juries for example: the jury can decide someone is not guilty based on the sympathy the jury feels for the accused. In the USA juries are rarely infomred that they can find someone not guilty based on compassion and not on evidence.

For a long time, especially in England, foreign people had the right to juries composed of 50% foreign juries just so the foreigner would still be able to have that compassionate edge be a little more understanding.

Not to go all "I have an ethics degree", but justice is not as simple as being blind. In fact, I would say it should almost never be blind.

 

 

 

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True.  But if we are talking about a god-like being who determines what is Just, you are correct, we need Compassion.  Neither Honor nor Odium, nor even Cultivation read as compassionate.

 

That's what I was aiming at for not liking the idea of Honor+Odium=Justice.  Blind may not be the best version of Justice, because, as you point out, that leaves no room for Compassion. But it is better than Justice that is 50% Hatred.

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When Pattern first tells Vivenna about Odium in WoR she also calls him hatred.

"Odium." He spoke the word as if needing to force it out. Shallan wrote furiously. Odium, hatred, a type of spren?

Is there such a thing as Honorable Hatred? A hatred for all things that are dishonorable. At this point honor spren seem to withdraw from anything dishonorable, but if they were combined with Odium it seems they would be more likely to destroy what was dishonorable. That sounds like Justice to me. At least a blind justice that is based on ones perception of dishonor.

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An intent to seek out and destroy all things dishonorable?

 

Starting to sound like Nightblood - "Destroy Evil!" But with no context or concept of how to describe what evil is.  

 

I'll grant you, the Skybreakers seem to be heading in this direction, with their allegiance to Odium, but the destruction of all that is not lawful is not Justice.  It is a self-perpetuating cycle of hatred and violence.  The purpose of Justice is to determine guilt from innocence and ensure that the guilty get the punishment they deserve.  Indiscriminate destruction and murder of those that are guilty, from an 'Honorable Hatred' of their dishonor does not read as Justice to me.  That is Tyranny, or Vengeance.

Edited by Stark
Because Vengeance
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36 minutes ago, Stark said:

I'll grant you, the Skybreakers seem to be heading in this direction, with their allegiance to Odium, but the destruction of all that is not lawful is not Justice.  It is a self-perpetuating cycle of hatred and violence.  The purpose of Justice is to determine guilt from innocence and ensure that the guilty get the punishment they deserve.  Indiscriminate destruction and murder of those that are guilty, from an 'Honorable Hatred' of their dishonor does not read as Justice to me.  That is Tyranny.

Completely agree. This wouldn't be true justice. However, I could see the individuals "perceiving" themselves as justice. Very similar to Nightblood. Which makes me wonder if Nightblood isn't a vessel for a Shard rather than just splintered investiture.

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56 minutes ago, MistGyorn said:

Nightblood isn't a vessel for a Shard

Well, that is the debate, isn't it.  Nightblood absorbs and changes Investiture.  When created, he was a heavily invested item.  But as he exists and continues to absorb, his investiture level will begin to approach shard levels.  What happens then?  Will the shards whose investiture he has consumed slowly get weaker?  Will he develop an intent and become a new Shard?

 

Nightblood scares me.  If I was in the Cosmere, he'd be the source of Nightmares.

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P + O equal liberty. True freedom is both passion and control, the right to be oneself and the duty not to limit others.

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2 hours ago, Stark said:

Well, that is the debate, isn't it.  Nightblood absorbs and changes Investiture.  When created, he was a heavily invested item.  But as he exists and continues to absorb, his investiture level will begin to approach shard levels.  What happens then?  Will the shards whose investiture he has consumed slowly get weaker?  Will he develop an intent and become a new Shard?

Nightblood feeds on Investiture but isn't strengthened by it. Brandon has RAFO'd whether sapient Investiture (which includes Nightblood) can Ascend but a slighlty newer WoB suggests that 'it doesn't work that way'.

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1 hour ago, Weltall said:

Admittedly my understanding of the 5 scholars is limited and I haven't read any WOB on the topic but I still wonder if Nightblood was awakened using a full shard rather than just a lot of investiture. Does that contradict the "consumes but isn't strengthened by" statement? Could a shard consume investiture of another shard's investiture? Technically all of the Shards have equal power/strength (I think). So he wouldn't have to be getting stronger. (This sounds like  stretch with the knowledge that I have so I defer to those who are better versed)

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13 hours ago, Stark said:

An intent to seek out and destroy all things dishonorable?

 

Starting to sound like Nightblood - "Destroy Evil!" But with no context or concept of how to describe what evil is.  

 

I'll grant you, the Skybreakers seem to be heading in this direction, with their allegiance to Odium, but the destruction of all that is not lawful is not Justice.  It is a self-perpetuating cycle of hatred and violence.  The purpose of Justice is to determine guilt from innocence and ensure that the guilty get the punishment they deserve.  Indiscriminate destruction and murder of those that are guilty, from an 'Honorable Hatred' of their dishonor does not read as Justice to me.  That is Tyranny, or Vengeance.

I've always though of a mixture between Honor and Odium as something similar to Autonomy, as Honor+Odium would equal "Hatred of Bonds." I feel like you guys are thinking along the lines of "If the Honor part of Honor+Odium was violated..." But that just me taking a blind shot in the dark.

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Honor is all about bonds, and I don't think the odious half would hate itself, so my guess would be somewhere around tribalism, isolationism, and supremacism; the idea of hating who/whatever is not bound to your group.

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8 hours ago, MistGyorn said:

Admittedly my understanding of the 5 scholars is limited and I haven't read any WOB on the topic but I still wonder if Nightblood was awakened using a full shard rather than just a lot of investiture. Does that contradict the "consumes but isn't strengthened by" statement?

There are many many questions that would raise. For a start, how did two Returned manage to find a Shard and separate it from its Vessel? There are only so many of them and they aren't exactly lying around free for the taking. And there's no evidence that a Shard could be placed in a piece of metal like that; Shard are on a completely different level than Breath. And Vasher would know and have mentioned something about this, instead of remembering quite specifically that Nightblood was Awakened from steel using a thousand Breaths. And there are probably more things but those are the first to come to mind. But we also have some WoBs that make it quite clear that Nightblood, however powerful, is not on the level of the Shards and there are other things that are also weaker than Shards but on a similar level to him.

Quote

Questioner

Is Nightblood a minor Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood is one of the most heavily Invested things in the cosmere that is not a Shard.

source
Quote

Questioner

Hypothetically could Nightblood Splinter a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, Splintering a Shard takes more power than Nightblood has.

source
Quote

Questioner

What about [Nightblood] compared to a Shardpool?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood compared to a Shardpool? Depends on the Pool.

source

 

Quote

Could a shard consume investiture of another shard's investiture? Technically all of the Shards have equal power/strength (I think). So he wouldn't have to be getting stronger. (This sounds like  stretch with the knowledge that I have so I defer to those who are better versed)

Shards can corrupt or co-opt the Investiture of other Shards, which is what the color red signifies.

The Shards did indeed start out at equal power but some have become relatively weaker due to Investing in a planet or planets. Odium for example was careful to not do this until he got stuck on Roshar and didn't have a choice, in order to have more available power compared to the Shards he was planning to kill. And there's a theory with a good bit of evidence behind it that Autonomy is creating avatars on various worlds in order to get access to more of 'her' Investiture.

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1 hour ago, John203 said:

Honor is all about bonds, and I don't think the odious half would hate itself, so my guess would be somewhere around tribalism, isolationism, and supremacism; the idea of hating who/whatever is not bound to your group.

You're probably right, now that I think about it XD

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9 hours ago, Weltall said:

Questioner

Is Nightblood a minor Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood is one of the most heavily Invested things in the cosmere that is not a Shard.

I suppose that answers that question. Thank you sir. And I apologize for taking this off topic.

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