[OB] Dalinar and the Beyond

[npi2015]

Spoiler

 

In the battle for Taylen City (I think that's how it's spelt) when Dalinar Ascends, he is forgotten by a voice which is probably Evi, his wife. However, Evi was not a splinter, nor a Shard (at least that I know of), so when she died she must have gone to the Beyond. I understood from Mistborn that the Beyond is outside a Shard's reach, so how did Dalinar manage to speak with Evi if she was not in any of the three realms? 

I have heard theories that say that Dalinar is a very powerful shard, without being a Shard, so maybe that somehow enables him to reach into the Beyond. Another option is that Evi somehow managed to stay in one of the Realms, but if this is the case I have no idea of how it happened. The third option is that I completely misunderstood what happened in Mistborn and a Shard can, in fact, reach into the Beyond. 

 

 

This has probably already been posted and answered, but I wanted to make sure anyways.

Thanks!!

Edited May 2, 2018 by npi2015

[Fatikis]

3 minutes ago, npi2015 said:

In the battle for Taylen City (I think that's how its spelled) when Dalinar Ascends, he is forgotten by a voice which is probably Evi, his wife. However, Evi was not a splinter, nor a Shard (at least that I know of), so when she died she must have gone to the Beyond. I understood from Mistborn that the Beyond is outside a Shard's reach, so how did Dalinar manage to speak with Evi if she was not in any of the three realms? 

I have heard theories that say that Dalinar is a very powerful shard, without being a Shard, so maybe that somehow enables him to reach into the Beyond. Another option is that Evi somehow managed to stay in one of the Realms, but if this is the case I have no idea of how it happened. The third option is that I completely misunderstood what happened in Mistborn and a Shard can, in fact, reach into the Beyond. 

This has probably already been posted and answered, but I wanted to make sure anyways.

Thanks!!

I think you still need spoiler tags for Oathbringer. I do not recall him talking to Evi here. Can you add the quote?

[npi2015]

11 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

I think you still need spoiler tags for Oathbringer. I do not recall him talking to Evi here. Can you add the quote?

I can't copy and paste the quote, so I hope a screenshot will do.

Is the thread tagged correctly now?

 

[Fatikis]

17 minutes ago, npi2015 said:

 

Interesting. I can't believe I didn't catch this. 
My gut says that this is actually Dalinar forgiving himself. I very much doubt he can reach into the beyond.
It is possible that Evi managed to stick around as a cognitive shadow. If so that would imply she was invested.

Evi was Riran which are related to the Ire. She could have had a form of investiture we haven't seen.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Fatikis

[npi2015]

20 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

Interesting. I can't believe I didn't catch this. 
My gut says that this is actually Dalinar forgiving himself. I very much doubt he can reach into the beyond.
It is possible that Evi managed to stick around as a cognitive shadow. If so that would imply she was invested.

Evi was Riran which are related to the Ire. She could have had a form of investiture we haven't seen.

It could be Dalinar forgiving himself, that could be explained by how the memories slowly returned. However, I don't think this is the case because of the conversation he had with Odium before he Ascended and because I think Dalinar as a character (at least this is how I see it), would be unable to forgive himself. It could be that she was some kind of Splinter, as you said. I find this the most likely situation.

Edited May 2, 2018 by npi2015

[Wandering Investor]

It could be an echo from the spiritual realm. Nal explains to Szeth that the voices he hears are echos from the spiritual realm, and this would match the voices Dalinar heard after the Rift. So it could be Dalinar connecting to a the ideal of Evi that exist in the spiritual realm.

[Jeffo]

Could Evi's voice (if it is her) be related to Hoids words from the traveller about the old rules not applying anymore? 

[EddyJ]

28 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

It could be an echo from the spiritual realm. Nal explains to Szeth that the voices he hears are echos from the spiritual realm, and this would match the voices Dalinar heard after the Rift. So it could be Dalinar connecting to a the ideal of Evi that exist in the spiritual realm.

I think so, mostly because pre-Nightwatcher Dalinar also hears similar screams including her voice. So it’s not such a stretch to imagine that the voices could come back in a different way. 

[Fatikis]

5 minutes ago, EddyJ said:

I think so, mostly because pre-Nightwatcher Dalinar also hears similar screams including her voice. So it’s not such a stretch to imagine that the voices could come back in a different way. 

See the screams pre-Nightwatcher were in Dalinar's head. That is why I would assume the forgiveness was as well. Dalinar is no longer the same man. He has forgiven himself.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

We know that the spiritual realm isn't bound by time or space, the simplest answer is that when Dalinar combined the three realms, he was able to access his spiritual connection to Evi, and was able to receive her forgiveness while his physical presence was in a future time but before Evi's spirit passed to the Beyond.

[Strifelover]

I think it was just in Dalinar's head. If you think about his character's arc throughout all of OB, but specifically at that moment, it's all about him accepting and owning his mistakes and striving to do better. Just moments before we had the big climax (You cannot have my pain!) where he refused to push blame off onto anything else. I think it would hugely cheapen this moment, if it really was Evi forgiving him. Dalinar doesn't need his past mistakes to tell him it was OK, he needs to own them and move forward, which he does. I think this is just Dalinar acknowledging what Evi was trying to tell him throughout their marriage, that he could be a better person, and he's committing to do just that.

[Yata]

The Spiritual is time indipendent and Dalinar was in the middle of a Perpendicularity at that time.

I assume It's not too hard to think Dalinar catched a glimpse from a past quotes from Evi thanks to their Connections.

Similarry Szeth's cases.

About Evi sticking around as CS. To reply to Dalinar there...Evi would Need to be' there but in the CR and we saw perfectly how the CR was there. Full of Fused and not in a welcoming envirorment. Much more, our Main cast was there.... Adolin included. I assume he would recognize his Mother if he was there XD ...and probably Evi would performe a Lethal Hug to her son

Edit: fixed a misstyped CS -> CR

Edited May 4, 2018 by Yata

[teknopathetic]

.

Edited May 3, 2018 by teknopathetic

[teknopathetic]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

About Evi sticking around as CS. To reply to Dalinar there...Evi would Need to be' there but in the CS and we saw perfectly how the CR was there. Full of Fused and not in a welcoming envirorment. Much more, our Main cast was there.... Adolin included. I assume he would recognize his Mother if he was there XD ...and probably Evi would performe a Lethal Hug to her son

Odium also shows Dalinar the voice of Evi.

 

Something interesting on Roshar is the "giving" and "taking". It isn't just Odium that talks about giving and taking pain, but also Cultivation. Cultivation genuinely thinks that she can do something with Dalinar's memories when she prunes Dalinar, but I have no idea what that might be? Cultivation clearly got something useful out of the deal... Maybe she has a garden of cognitive copies that she uses as a Cognative Army or something? We still have no idea what Cultivation does with the things she reaps during the Boon Process. Can she stick someone's sense of balance onto one of her agents? Does she have a warehouse of abilities?

This could also explain the unexplained Cognative Existence of Nohadon. That dude ain't 100% dead, or at least he isnt nearly as dead as he should be. Did someone give their memories/connection of/with him away to Cultivatioin? What is going on here?

Could the fact it seems like Evi's voice was real have something to do with this giving and taking of pain (both from Cultivation and Odium?). It seems like dying isn't as straight forward on this planet than it might be on others. We still have the Tranqueline Halls mythology to explain, and I doubt Ashyn is the entire answer. Another mystery is Szeth hearing the screams of his victims long after those people have died? Sure, we have a WOB saying blah blah, but why do Rosharans hear after-screams when other people around the Cosmere don't seem to? There is something here. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by teknopathetic

[Weltall]

Roshar is a highly Invested world, which Brandon has mentioned in the context of general health (ie, why the common cold was seen as a terrifying plague when worldhoppers accidentally introduced it) and the general abundance of the ecosystem. The border between Realms is a bit thinner when you have the Highstorms passing through on a regular basis, opening up a conduit to the Spiritual Realm each time. That by itself probably accounts for a lot of the 'weirdness'.

On 5/2/2018 at 8:09 AM, Fatikis said:

Evi was Riran which are related to the Ire. She could have had a form of investiture we haven't seen.

Nitpick, the Rirans are related to the Iri, not the Ire. While they have roots that don't originate on Roshar, the same is true for every human on the planet and Brandon mentioned that Evi herself is not Iriali. Even if she was, they're all now 'Rosharan' and would have sDNA to match. Any Investiture the Iriali might have had from wherever they came from would by now be so intermixed with Rosharan sDNA that it's probably inconsequential. Consider how the sDNA of magic systems from the same planet thoroughly interfere with one another (allomancy and feruchemy on Scadrial, Dayside/Darkside on Taldain) and add thousands of years and I very much doubt that there's any secret 'Iriali Investiture' waiting to be discovered.

[Fatikis]

20 hours ago, Weltall said:

Nitpick, the Rirans are related to the Iri, not the Ire. While they have roots that don't originate on Roshar, the same is true for every human on the planet and Brandon mentioned that Evi herself is not Iriali. Even if she was, they're all now 'Rosharan' and would have sDNA to match. Any Investiture the Iriali might have had from wherever they came from would by now be so intermixed with Rosharan sDNA that it's probably inconsequential. Consider how the sDNA of magic systems from the same planet thoroughly interfere with one another (allomancy and feruchemy on Scadrial, Dayside/Darkside on Taldain) and add thousands of years and I very much doubt that there's any secret 'Iriali Investiture' waiting to be discovered.

...I said they were related. You quoted me saying that they are related to then tell me that they are related.

As to the sDNA to match that seems unlikely. Your sDNA isn't just changed because you are from a different world. You are making a lot of assumptions. If this is similar to genetics it would depend on a huge number of factors. We don't know anything about the Rirans. We don't know how often they interbreed or how recently they begun this.

Right now it is impossible to say either way. I will admit there isn't really evidence for it. It probably isn't what is happening here. We'd need to know a lot more about the Iriali and the Riran's before any accurate information can be obtained.

[Weltall]

3 hours ago, Fatikis said:

...I said they were related. You quoted me saying that they are related to then tell me that they are related.

You said Ire, not Iri. There's a difference, especially as pertains to Investiture. Nitpicky, yes, but there you go.

Quote

As to the sDNA to match that seems unlikely. Your sDNA isn't just changed because you are from a different world. You are making a lot of assumptions. If this is similar to genetics it would depend on a huge number of factors. We don't know anything about the Rirans. We don't know how often they interbreed or how recently they begun this.

Your sDNA might not instantly change because you move planets but we know that sDNA does interfere with sDNA even between inhabitants of the same planet (see the examples I provided) with consequent effects on Investiture use, so there's no reason to think that the Iriali wouldn't have very different sDNA now than they did whenever they first arrived on Roshar, due to how many thousands of years of mingling with the humans who were there before them. For the Iriali to have a reasonable chance of retaining any Investiture-specific sDNA after 5000+ years (Iri was one of the Silver Kingdoms, they have to have been around since before Aharietiam) they'd have to have a very isolated community that retained something close to 'pure' Iriali genes. Consider again how the sDNA for full feruchemists became so diluted after only three hundred years on Scadrial. And we know that the Iriali can and have become Surgebinders, which come with heritable sDNA changes.

So yes, there are assumptions there, but they're much more reasonble than 'the Iri have retained some pre-Rosharan Investiture after thousands of years' as an explanation for the weirdness with Dalinar and Evi's voice. Especially when we already have a mechanism to explain it.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Weltall

[Fezzik]

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

Consider again how the sDNA for full feruchemists became so diluted after only three hundred years on Scadrial.

Nitpick time!

Edited May 4, 2018 by John203

[Weltall]

@John203 Touche. <Uses Ruin's power to alter the written word>

[Fatikis]

Quote

You said Ire, not Iri. There's a difference, especially as pertains to Investiture. Nitpicky, yes, but there you go.

I see. I had Ire added to my autocorrect. I wasn't aware it had changed the Iri. Sorry for the confusion. Those are very important differences. 

Quote

Your sDNA might not instantly change because you move planets but we know that sDNA does interfere with sDNA even between inhabitants of the same planet (see the examples I provided) with consequent effects on Investiture use, so there's no reason to think that the Iriali wouldn't have very different sDNA now than they did whenever they first arrived on Roshar, due to how many thousands of years of mingling with the humans who were there before them. For the Iriali to have a reasonable chance of retaining any Investiture-specific sDNA after 5000+ years (Iri was one of the Silver Kingdoms, they have to have been around since before Aharietiam) they'd have to have a very isolated community that retained something close to 'pure' Iriali genes. Consider again how the sDNA for full feruchemists became so diluted after only three hundred years on Scadrial. And we know that the Iriali can and have become Surgebinders, which come with heritable sDNA changes.

So yes, there are assumptions there, but they're much more reasonble than 'the Iri have retained some pre-Rosharan Investiture after thousands of years' as an explanation for the weirdness with Dalinar and Evi's voice. Especially when we already have a mechanism to explain it.

sDNA is not being changed by the planet. Interbreeding between causes the issues. The sDNA seems to have issue with full expression if you have two types of investiture bound into the sDNA. The Iriali sDNA would be the same. They seem to mostly keep to themselves. There is a reason that the Riran's are different. Likely they have mixed Roshar blood. 

It isn't that unreasonable to think a race from another planet probably of another shard may have other types on investiture. The Riran specifically may have access to another power and possible resonances of Roshar investiture. 

Anyone with cracks in the spirit web can become Radiant. It isn't bound by sDNA like Allomancy or Feruchemy. Specifically the differences between Iriali and Riran is important. I find it extremely unlikely that the Iri don't have access to another type of investiture.

I will agree that I don't believe this is how we heard Evi. I merely offered it as a possibility to be discussed. It more than likely was in Dalinar's head.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Fatikis