Adonalsium is a Splinter?

[Temoo]

From my understanding, all of the Shardworlds so far have been in the same galaxy. If its a possibility that other galaxies exist, could it mean Adonalsium is also a Splinter of a much greater power?

[RShara]

It's possible, but I don't think Brandon is going to go there. I think Brandon's going for Adonalsium is in everything, even galaxies that aren't in the cosmere.

 

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

source

 

[Wandering Investor]

To my knowledge, Brandon has never confirmed or denied the existence of galaxies/planets/etc outside of the star cluster his books take place in. Also, various WoBs indicate everything in the cosmere is related to Adonalsium. There's alot of wiggle room there, but for those reasons as well as narrative ones, I suspect Adon is the end all be all, and everything falls within his scope.

[Elenion]

The way I picture the whole "infinite but not infinite" thing with Adonalsium is with a fire hose attached to a tank of water. The tank of water is infinite, but the hose limits the flow rate. The water is Adonalsium's power, but Adonalisum could only access so much at one time. The Shards, they have less of a flow rate of power than Adonalsium, but they're still tapping into the infinite water tank.

[Wandering Investor]

11 minutes ago, Elenion said:

The way I picture the whole "infinite but not infinite" thing with Adonalsium is with a fire hose attached to a tank of water. The tank of water is infinite, but the hose limits the flow rate. The water is Adonalsium's power, but Adonalisum could only access so much at one time. The Shards, they have less of a flow rate of power than Adonalsium, but they're still tapping into the infinite water tank.

That, or the water is continually recycled through the tank, so there is a finite amount, but it will never be used up. Siphoning off Ruin's power into atium wouldn't work if there was an infinite tank behind him. Or maybe a bit of both, the powers of the shards are confusing. 

[Weltall]

2 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

To my knowledge, Brandon has never confirmed or denied the existence of galaxies/planets/etc outside of the star cluster his books take place in.

Isaac Stewart has said that not all the stars on the Arcanum Unbounded chart are within the Cosmere, which is as close to Brandon saying so s we're likely get for now.

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That, or the water is continually recycled through the tank, so there is a finite amount, but it will never be used up. Siphoning off Ruin's power into atium wouldn't work if there was an infinite tank behind him. Or maybe a bit of both, the powers of the shards are confusing. 

Here's my spin on it, and there's probably a better way to put it but the mechanics of the Spiritual Realm and infinite anything are brain-breaking. Let's stick with Ruin and Presevation as an example since they're a known quantity. Say we have an infinitely large water tank representing Adonalsium's infinite power, of which the sixteenth of that power that is aligned with Ruin is still infinite, because infinity. Now, each Shard has what we can think of as an 'active tank' which represents how much of that infinite Investiture (residing in the Spiritual Realm) the Vessels are able to recognize as 'theirs' and access at any given time. The 'active tank' is a flexible container that can contract when a Shard Invests in a planet or does anything similar like create a Splinter. This pulls the Investiture from the Spiritual and into the Cognitive/Physical. Let's just call it 'the world' for short. Power placed into the world is not lost to the Shards and they still recognize it as theirs, but they can't use it without pulling it back into the Spiritual. When Preservation and Ruin created Scadrial, they gave up slightly unequal amounts of their Investiture, so Ruin's 'active tank' remained slightly larger than Preservation's and he was more powerful afterwards. Preservation split off some of Ruin's power into atium in order to restore the balance and set it up to recycle back into the world rather than into Ruin's 'active tank', thus leaving them at equal power once again. Investiture in the world can be reclaimed by a Shard, but it requires active effort and can obviously do things to the world that anyone living on it may not appreciate.

Now, in addition to contracting when Investiture is put into the Physical/Cognitive Realms, the 'active tanks' can also expand, when the Shards recognize some of that infinite Investiture in the Cosmere is 'theirs'. It always was theirs and it always was available but they didn't truly know it until that moment. At that point, there is a one-way flow of Investiture from the infinitely large 'Adonalsium tank' to the Shard's 'active tank', which becomes proporitonately larger. This fits with Brandon's explanation for how Autonomy and Patji are connected.

Then we have Investiture as we're most familiar with it, in the various magic systems. These draw on the Investiture in 'the world' and in the 'active tank' and this Investiture is what infinitely cycles through the system. So for example, Scadrians through the part of them that is Preservation (the part that's in 'the world') can tap into Preservation's 'active tank' in the Spiritul Realm using metals as a focus in allomancy. The power is briefly drawn into the world, shaped by the metal and the Intent of the allomancer, used and then recycled into the Spiritual again. Apply as needed to any end-positive magic. For end-neutral systems, the power is generally already in the world and is simply changing owners or changing form slightly. A given Breath goes from Endowment's 'active tank' into the world whenever she bestows it on a person, then it gets used until the last person to bear that Breath dies, or an object it's used to Awaken is destroyed, then it flows back into the Spiritual/Endowment's 'tank'. In any event, the Investiture always has a way back into the Shard's 'active tank'.

So... did I explain that well enough?

[The One Who Connects]

20 hours ago, Temoo said:

could it mean Adonalsium is also a Splinter of a much greater power?

I don't think Brandon has outright denied this possibility, but we have this:

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dgenio8 (paraphrased)
If the force opposing Adonalsium is an entity like him/her/it, have we seen any magic that is related to this entity?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
No. All the magic you see comes from the shards of Adonalsium.

Make assumptions as you see fit.

[RShara]

9 hours ago, Weltall said:

Isaac Stewart has said that not all the stars on the Arcanum Unbounded chart are within the Cosmere, which is as close to Brandon saying so s we're likely get for now.

Here's my spin on it, and there's probably a better way to put it but the mechanics of the Spiritual Realm and infinite anything are brain-breaking. Let's stick with Ruin and Presevation as an example since they're a known quantity. Say we have an infinitely large water tank representing Adonalsium's infinite power, of which the sixteenth of that power that is aligned with Ruin is still infinite, because infinity. Now, each Shard has what we can think of as an 'active tank' which represents how much of that infinite Investiture (residing in the Spiritual Realm) the Vessels are able to recognize as 'theirs' and access at any given time. The 'active tank' is a flexible container that can contract when a Shard Invests in a planet or does anything similar like create a Splinter. This pulls the Investiture from the Spiritual and into the Cognitive/Physical. Let's just call it 'the world' for short. Power placed into the world is not lost to the Shards and they still recognize it as theirs, but they can't use it without pulling it back into the Spiritual. When Preservation and Ruin created Scadrial, they gave up slightly unequal amounts of their Investiture, so Ruin's 'active tank' remained slightly larger than Preservation's and he was more powerful afterwards. Preservation split off some of Ruin's power into atium in order to restore the balance and set it up to recycle back into the world rather than into Ruin's 'active tank', thus leaving them at equal power once again. Investiture in the world can be reclaimed by a Shard, but it requires active effort and can obviously do things to the world that anyone living on it may not appreciate.

Now, in addition to contracting when Investiture is put into the Physical/Cognitive Realms, the 'active tanks' can also expand, when the Shards recognize some of that infinite Investiture in the Cosmere is 'theirs'. It always was theirs and it always was available but they didn't truly know it until that moment. At that point, there is a one-way flow of Investiture from the infinitely large 'Adonalsium tank' to the Shard's 'active tank', which becomes proporitonately larger. This fits with Brandon's explanation for how Autonomy and Patji are connected.

Then we have Investiture as we're most familiar with it, in the various magic systems. These draw on the Investiture in 'the world' and in the 'active tank' and this Investiture is what infinitely cycles through the system. So for example, Scadrians through the part of them that is Preservation (the part that's in 'the world') can tap into Preservation's 'active tank' in the Spiritul Realm using metals as a focus in allomancy. The power is briefly drawn into the world, shaped by the metal and the Intent of the allomancer, used and then recycled into the Spiritual again. Apply as needed to any end-positive magic. For end-neutral systems, the power is generally already in the world and is simply changing owners or changing form slightly. A given Breath goes from Endowment's 'active tank' into the world whenever she bestows it on a person, then it gets used until the last person to bear that Breath dies, or an object it's used to Awaken is destroyed, then it flows back into the Spiritual/Endowment's 'tank'. In any event, the Investiture always has a way back into the Shard's 'active tank'.

So... did I explain that well enough?

I really love this explanation!

@Calderis This is what I was trying to communicate the other day.

[Mistcloaked Mountains]

On 5/2/2018 at 1:57 AM, RShara said:

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

There is a concept which comes up many times that 1 + 1 = 3. (not an Alcatraz reference)

Here are a few examples:

1. Alloys do not have the properties of the original metals, combined.

2. Combining 2 types of investiture, (i.e. twinborns, radiants) has a new effect. (Ars Arcanum of Wax & Wayne books) 

3. Neither Ruin nor Preservation can create on their own but together they can.

So we can also say that 16 x 1 = infinity.