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Who do you ship and why?


Darkwalker

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I guess some of these things are "lost in translation" to me. I hate reading German translations (so much gets lost!), but my English is not perfect to a point where I will pick up every flaw.
So I either read weird dialogues in German, then I think "stupid translation", or I read an English text, someone says "weird dialogue" and I'm like "oh really? Didn't notice." ;)
Additionally, I'm not an overly critical reader. Book has cool characters? Book makes me cry and laugh? I like book. :lol:

Edited by Winds Alight
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7 hours ago, Vissy said:

Sanderson isn't a great character writer (he acknowledges this himself) and it's something he could improve a lot on.

Interesting as I've felt his characterization wasn't quite up to par with the rest of his capacities. I wouldn't say he can improve a lot on it, but he has more room for improvement in that region than others. (Meaning he's good, not great.)

For my part instead of Lynch/Gentlemen Bastards, my model for comparison is James S A Corey (Daniel Abraham/Ty Frank) which most would know as the writers/producers/creators of The Expanse. Although I came into their books much earlier on reading The Long Price Quartet. (Interesting books, nother interesting magic system.) They have some of the best characterization in the industry, but I find them lacking in a few other departments. They have some amazing grey characters and I love their line, "no heroes." They understand shades of grey but they also write compelling human nature.

Then in the same vein looking at another model, my personal favourite since back in 2003, Scott R Bakker and his Prince of Nothing series. His characters had some sharp edges, they cut. Yet his writing on a technical level doesn't match Sanderson's.

If I had to pinpoint something specific that could be better, and I find this hard to do, I'd say it's that when he tries to write effed up characters he's too technical about it. He's exploring a single facet and while that facet makes the character grey it's still only once facet. For example...

(getting into OB spoiler territory now so cease and desist readers who aren't caught up)

...

Teft in OB. He's basically only his addiction in the entire book, and that's his arc. The addiction is presented as Teft. But Teft isn't just a walking addiction plot-line that needs to be resolved. Teft is Teft. I get there's limited screen time but if you want characterization you need to accommodate a wide range of characteristics, flaws and all. (Stressing the "all" part here.)


Also, thanks for those WoBs @Vissy.

 

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I think Sanderson is great at writing characters. Well, maybe not perfect, but Sadeas was just awesome. After Sadeas I can forgive almost everything :D It was probably like the first time in my life when I could really understand and empathize villain. I doesn't mean that I liked his actions in book, they were terrible, but I enjoyed how he did it and why he did it and his interactions with his wife. Storms, I kinda applauded his move at the Tower!

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11 hours ago, Dalakaar said:

Teft in OB. He's basically only his addiction in the entire book, and that's his arc. The addiction is presented as Teft. But Teft isn't just a walking addiction plot-line that needs to be resolved. Teft is Teft. I get there's limited screen time but if you want characterization you need to accommodate a wide range of characteristics, flaws and all. (Stressing the "all" part here.)

This regard yes it isn't that good but with Kaladin and Renarin I noticed he writes them quite well. Kaladin's depression isn't just him and he has good days and bad days which is exactly someone with depression at least from my experience is like. Especially in the aspect of you're having a good day then one little thing happens, weeks become unbearable. 

With Renarin, I noticed his behaviour as very normal but I knew compared to other characters, it was abonormal. When I found out he was on the spectrum I went "ohhh, it all makes sense". I live with people on the spectrum and they are in varying degrees and let me tell you, Renarin is written perfectly in that regard from and outside characters view. I think some characters aren't as well written (ie Shallan with Borderline Personality Disorder, no one is that extreme/ subtle with their personalities). I think you can tell from the characters best written, which one Sanderson relates or understands most.  

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I think it's unfair to name Teft here. The guy has like ... one POV chapter in the book and then some lines during the climax. That's not much more than he had before (one short POV scene in each book). Additionally, his struggle was very believable and during his few POVs in OB, it was very understandable that his addiction was the main thing in his mind.

14 minutes ago, Eris said:

 I think some characters aren't as well written (ie Shallan with Borderline Personality Disorder, no one is that extreme/ subtle with their personalities). I think you can tell from the characters best written, which one Sanderson relates or understands most.  

Maybe no one in real life is that subtle/extreme, but, no one in real life has the ability to actually to create illusions. There was a pretty cool analysis of Shallan and other characters on Tumblr I saw a while about the way in-world magic affects mental health. So I think it's not that unrealistic that things got out of hand with Shallan when she started trying to Lightweave her trauma away.

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1 minute ago, Winds Alight said:

I think it's unfair to name Teft here. The guy has like ... one POV chapter in the book and then some lines during the climax. That's not much more than he had before (one short POV scene in each book). Additionally, his struggle was very believable and during his few POVs in OB, it was very understandable that his addiction was the main thing in his mind.

Maybe no one in real life is that subtle/extreme, but, no one in real life has the ability to actually to create illusions. There was a pretty cool analysis of Shallan and other characters on Tumblr I saw a while about the way in-world magic affects mental health. So I think it's not that unrealistic that things got out of hand with Shallan when she started trying to Lightweave her trauma away.

It is a bit unrealistic in the psychological sense. The severe trauma Shallan has makes sense that she got it and suffers but the actual behaviour isn't normal for a sufferer of BLPD. When I read it, it sounded like the dramatised version that is played in movies. To an extent it is accurate but also a bit over the top to the real thing. 

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I don't particularly mind charges of "realism" or "unrealism" in books. I think what people often call unrealistic are actually quite realistic things. Take romance for an example since this is a shipping thread. The romance between Shallan and Adolin could be called unrealistic because of how soppy it seems, but then what does a romance look like when you look at it from the outside? I even know people who have acted in similar manners to Adolin and Shallan when they're in love. 

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1 minute ago, Vissy said:

I don't particularly mind charges of "realism" or "unrealism" in books. I think what people often call unrealistic are actually quite realistic things. Take romance for an example since this is a shipping thread. The romance between Shallan and Adolin could be called unrealistic because of how soppy it seems, but then what does a romance look like when you look at it from the outside? I even know people who have acted in similar manners to Adolin and Shallan when they're in love. 

Their relationship seemed normal/ realistic. In fact it didn't look soppy at all. It's those YAs that sometimes write romance wrong, ironically enough.

 I guess I'm just annoyed with the portrayal of Shallan's disorder since I study and have worked with people who do suffer similarly to her. And that's why I thought the characterisation of Kaladin was quite well done. 

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Realism did not seem to be the goal regarding Shallan's disorder: 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

So, a couple of things here. First off, I'll take any knocks I get--and try to do better. I'm not an expert on mental health, and though I do my best, I'm going to get things wrong. I'm going to risk defending myself here--and hopefully not dig myself deeper--as I at least explain my thought process, and why I built Shallan the way I did.

However, one of the rules of thumb I go by is this: individual experience can defy the standard, if I understand that is what I'm doing. Like how Stephen Leeds is not trying to accurately portray schizophrenia, Shallan is not trying to accurately portray dissociative identity disorder (if a scholarly consensus on such a thing even exists. I haven't glanced through the DSM5 to see what it says.)

In Legion, I have an easy out. I say, point blank, "He doesn't fit the diagnosis--he's not a schizophrenic, or if he is, he's a very weird one." I don't have the benefit of a modern psychology voice in the Stormlight books to hang a lantern on this, but my intention is the same. What Shallan has is related to her individual interaction with the world, her past, and the magic.

Is this Hollywood MPD? I'm not convinced. Hollywood MPD (with DSM4 backing it up, I believe) tends to involve things like a person feeling like they're possessed, and completely out of control. The different identities don't remember what others did. It's a very werewolf type thing. You wake up, and learn that another version of you took over your body and went out and committed crimes or whatever.

Shallan is coping with her pain in (best I've been able to do) a very realistic way, by boxing off and retreating and putting on a mask of humor and false "everything is okay" attitudes. But she has magical abilities that nobody in this world has, including the ability to put on masks that change the way everyone perceives her. She's playing roles as she puts them on, but I make it very clear (with deliberate slip-ups of self-reference in the prose) that it's always Shallan in there, and she's specifically playing this role because it lets her ignore the things she doesn't want to face.

She's losing control of what is real and what isn't--partially because she can't decide who she wants to be, who she should be, and what the world wants her to be. But it's not like other personalities are creeping in from a fractured psyche. She's hiding behind masks, and creates each role for herself to act in an attempt to solve a perceived shortcoming in herself. She literally sketched out Veil and thought, "Yup, I'm going to become that person now." Because Veil would have never been tricked into caring about her father; she would have been too wise for that.

I feel it's as close as I can get to realism, while the same time acknowledging that as a fantasy author, one of my primary goals is to explore the human interaction with the supernatural. The "What ifs" of magic. What if a person who had suffered a great deal of abuse as a child COULD create a mask for themselves, changing themselves into someone stronger (or more street-smart who wouldn't have been betrayed that way. Would they do it, and hide behind that mask? What would that do to them and the world around them?

DID is indeed controversial, but I really like this portrayal. Not of a disease, but of who this character is. And I've had had enough positive responses from people who feel their own psychology is similar that I'm confident a non-insignificant number of people out there identify with what she's doing in the same way people with depression identify with Kaladin.

source

But I get what you mean @Eris

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3 hours ago, Eris said:

Okay I can accept it if he describes it not as DID but a part of her character (these are two different things in my head). At least he acknowledges it too. 

Yes, what is going on with Shallan is less indicative of DID and more indicative of her skills as a Lightweaver. I've gone into this elsewhere, but the personas are all just masks, not independent personalities.

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55 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Yes, what is going on with Shallan is less indicative of DID and more indicative of her skills as a Lightweaver. I've gone into this elsewhere, but the personas are all just masks, not independent personalities.

This is true, but those masks are still apart of her, not separate from Shallan. If that’s what you meant, then I’m sorry for misinterpreting your statement.

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Just now, StrikerEZ said:

This is true, but those masks are still apart of her, not separate from Shallan. If that’s what you meant, then I’m sorry for misinterpreting your statement.

Yes, I meant they're all the same person--they're all Shallan, not different people in Shallan's body. Or rather all of them together are Shallan, separate they're just pieces of her that she's "adopting" with a magically augmented mental trick.

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On 1/8/2019 at 4:16 AM, Vissy said:

I don't particularly mind charges of "realism" or "unrealism" in books. I think what people often call unrealistic are actually quite realistic things. Take romance for an example since this is a shipping thread. The romance between Shallan and Adolin could be called unrealistic because of how soppy it seems, but then what does a romance look like when you look at it from the outside? I even know people who have acted in similar manners to Adolin and Shallan when they're in love. 

Agreed. This is commonly referred to as the "puppy love" phase. I've been through it plenty of times myself. Usually the first 3-6 months you go through this when you get into a new relationship where it's like you're living on a cloud. The other person is so perfect in your eyes that you just adore everything about them and they can do no wrong and all you want to do is be around that person, holding, hugging, or kissing them every second of every day, hah. Eventually reality starts to creep back in, but it does take a good chunk of time. :) 

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5 hours ago, Razrback16 said:

Agreed. This is commonly referred to as the "puppy love" phase. I've been through it plenty of times myself. Usually the first 3-6 months you go through this when you get into a new relationship where it's like you're living on a cloud. The other person is so perfect in your eyes that you just adore everything about them and they can do no wrong and all you want to do is be around that person, holding, hugging, or kissing them every second of every day, hah. Eventually reality starts to creep back in, but it does take a good chunk of time. :) 

I've heard of it as "The Honeymoon Phase."

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Best ship I've thought of yet.

Stormfather and a reformed Sja-anat who is now the Stormmother. They have so much in common.

"You like spren lil'lady?"

"Yeah I like spren."


The sequel involves the Nightwatcher who turns out to be the mousy sister of Sja'anat. Sequels always have to be bigger after all.

 

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On 1/7/2019 at 2:21 PM, Dalakaar said:

Interesting as I've felt his characterization wasn't quite up to par with the rest of his capacities. I wouldn't say he can improve a lot on it, but he has more room for improvement in that region than others.

I am quite fond of his characters and his process of developing them. In my opinion, however, his most masterful ability is the way he creates unique and wonderful worlds.

That said, Nightblood + Stick, everyone's favorite inanimate objects. 

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5 hours ago, Dalakaar said:

Best ship I've thought of yet.

Stormfather and a reformed Sja-anat who is now the Stormmother. They have so much in common.

"You like spren lil'lady?"

"Yeah I like spren."


The sequel involves the Nightwatcher who turns out to be the mousy sister of Sja'anat. Sequels always have to be bigger after all.

 

I have a better idea,let's ship Sja-anat and the Nightwatcher.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

I've tried to search the forum using multiple variants, but no result, so I guess I've constructed a new ship. So here we go.

Taralin!

Assuming that she is in Urithiru, what do we have? She likes fashion and bright colors, same as Adolin. She is cute, "grown nice rockbuds" and she is used to play with attention of men, so she can possibly keep him interested. Especially if we take into account, that her beauty is something you discover more and more you look at it, according to Kaladin's description of her, Adolin will less likely have his eyes wander, because he will be charmed! She also can be somewhat familiar with sewing, because she had been measuring soldiers in Amarams army and could probably sew something herself too, or at least she would be glad to learn that from Adolin, and we know how much he likes teaching people something he is passionate about.

Edited by Sedside
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