[OB] Renarin's influence on the Diagram

[Quantus]

2 hours ago, tmnsquirtle said:

At first, I disagreed with this, but after some consideration, I'm on board. Especially since (Mistborn spoilers): 

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Fortune, which I think we can all agree is the central mechanism behind future sight, is directly manipulatable by feruchemists on scadrial. I bet this will actually be a common topic in the future of the cosmere.

 

Agreed, though the downside is that it would presumably require the correct Corrupted/Voidspren to be imprisoned in the gems for it to work, and they may well be a limited supply.  Unless Sja-anat does defect, of course, but she seems to care for them and may object to them being imprisoned in Fabrials.    

[Jofwu]

13 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

2. Futuresight is a (corrupted?) surge. 

Maybe?

Renarin's futuresight is weird...

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Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. 

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

source

It seems highly likely that is voidbinding, or at least related to voidbinding. We don't really have any evidence that "voidfabrials" are a thing?

My suspicion is that it's possible... Devices for most magic in the cosmere seems possible. But I'm betting a fabrial to see the future is going to be very difficult to make and very expensive to use? I guess it depends on how "powerful" the fabrial is. To connect things to Mistborn...

Spoiler

A fabrial that does something like Allomantic gold is one thing, while atium is another. And "see the future" is generally used to refer to something more powerful than atium.

Looking far into the future, through more complex events, (like we see with Renarin in WoR I think) is probably not cheap or easy in my opinion.

[ZenBossanova]

3 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Looking far into the future, through more complex events, (like we see with Renarin in WoR I think) is probably not cheap or easy in my opinion.

That depends, are you trying to actually see into the future, or merely stymie others who are attempting to see? The former may be hard, but the latter should be relatively easy. 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

6 hours ago, Jofwu said:

It seems highly likely that is voidbinding, or at least related to voidbinding. We don't really have any evidence that "voidfabrials" are a thing?

There's this recent WoB from the Skyward AMA that goes a long way to confirming this, usually:

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dvoraen

"To see the future originates with the Unmade..." "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." Is it therefore safe to say that Voidbinding, by extension, also originates with the Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Not always. But usually.

source

 

6 hours ago, Jofwu said:

My suspicion is that it's possible... Devices for most magic in the cosmere seems possible. But I'm betting a fabrial to see the future is going to be very difficult to make and very expensive to use? I guess it depends on how "powerful" the fabrial is. To connect things to Mistborn...

Our favorite crypto Elantrian, Riino, has a fortune viewing device in his lighthouse in Shadesmar, looks kind of like a crystal ball, but it definitely allows Kaladin to glimpse the future, not sure what the underlying mechanic is (seemed like access to the Spiritual Realm), but it was triggered by the passing Shadesmar manifestation of the Highstorm.

6 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

That depends, are you trying to actually see into the future, or merely stymie others who are attempting to see? The former may be hard, but the latter should be relatively easy. 

I like this idea, like you could have a worn fabrial that has essentially the same effect as creating Electrum shadows. Basically a limited proximate effect that masks the future of a single agent. Pretty freaking awesome idea!

 

Edited January 11, 2019 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
typos typos typos

[animalia]

I had a thought. Odium took pride in the fact that there was no equivalent of the Bondsmith in voidbinding. I think it’s not that there is no equivalent spren, for a Bondsmith Of voidbinding but that Odium deliberately made it as hard as possible to bond with. (As for why he would make one it might be that as part of coopting the magic system he kind of had to, so trying to make it impossible to bond was his workaround for having to make it)

This is just a guess but based on the fact that the voidbinding chart is an inverted version of the Knights Radiant chart. Could it be that the “equivalent of a Bondsmith for voidbinding” would have the heraldic characteristics of a Bondsmith (Pious, Guiding) but take the vows and surges if a Truthwatcher? And that’s why they are so hard to find? Remember what Lift said about Pious people? “They are hiding something” 

My guess is that Glys, the corrupted Truthwatcher spen would make somewon the equivalent of a Voidbinder Bondsmith, but Odium thought that it would be impossible for anyone to successfully bond with Glys. Or at least to bond to this degree. Hence the pride in there not being a “bondsmith” equivalent in voidbinding. The fact that Renarin WAS able to bond Glys would end up throwing a series wrench in Odiums plans.

[StrikerEZ]

@animalia In the Ars Arcanum at the end of any SA book, Kriss talks about how there are ten orders of voidbinding, just like there are ten orders of surgebinding. What you’re thinking of is how there are only nine types of fused. Even then, we don’t know which surge isn’t represented in the Fused.

[animalia]

12 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

@animalia In the Ars Arcanum at the end of any SA book, Kriss talks about how there are ten orders of voidbinding, just like there are ten orders of surgebinding. What you’re thinking of is how there are only nine types of fused. Even then, we don’t know which surge isn’t represented in the Fused.

Ok. I found the thing I was looking for. It seems we were BOTH wrong. The thing that the Bondsmith analog was missing from is the UNMADE. Link here https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173/#e8598

[StrikerEZ]

11 hours ago, animalia said:

Ok. I found the thing I was looking for. It seems we were BOTH wrong. The thing that the Bondsmith analog was missing from is the UNMADE. Link here https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173/#e8598

I mean, that’s true. But my statement is also true. There are only 9 types of Fused (unless there are actually 10, and Moash just didn’t see the last type).

[animalia]

On 1/13/2019 at 8:36 PM, StrikerEZ said:

I mean, that’s true. But my statement is also true. There are only 9 types of Fused (unless there are actually 10, and Moash just didn’t see the last type).

Fair point, still givin how 9 kind of seems to be Odium’s number and all...

[Calderis]

Just think I'll drop this here... 

 

[Grytorm]

Weirdly my assumption when reading about the darkened portion of the diagram took it almost literally. That it had originally been a line of thought that Taravangian had started on then stopped/crossed out because he knew that it would be something important that Odium would miss of it wasn't written out. 

For the Diagram and it's true intentions. I think the stated plan of the diagram is it's plan if Plan A, the complicated Taravangian is a triple agent scheme, doesn't work. So the Diagram provides precise instructions on how to carry out Plan B while secretly laying the groundwork of Plan A.

Last, on Cultivations long term planning abilities... It would be amusing if she wasn't good at long term planning and setting up carefully payed plans. But at the same time she is still a goddess with Divine foresight and the capacity to consider the implications of her actions. She doesn't exactly scheme to craft Dalinar into a Knight Radiant to oppose Odium. Her awareness passes over Dalinar and suddenly she understands what he is and what he could be. So she pushes him to grow into the best he could be.

[joesleepsalot]

     Interesting points on Cultivation! Asshe is one of the 16 shardholders with a plethora of behind the scenes workings, I think we will all be surprised by her intentions/workings in book 4.

     I have mixed feelings/impressions from Cultivation. Assuming that the Diagram actually IS from her (We don’t have an actual account of Mr. T’s trip to the Nightwatcher like we do for Dalinar) she’s blatantly leading Mr. T. down an “immoral” path by lying to him and causing a lot of death. Not that she has to be moral, as of course to a shard like Cultivation, certain death/decay is acceptable. But she was all about Honor/Tanavast. Perhaps she’s the Machiavelli equivalent of the shards.... ie., the end justifies the means.

    We see Cultivation specifically grooming Dalinar to face Odium (when he seeks out the Nighwatcher), although she admits/vocalizes that she’s taking a gamble in doing so. From this passage in OB, it seems that the reader gets a “truthful” glimpse into her intent.... that she wants Odium to fall. 

     On the other hand, the diagram is all about killing/assassinating/usurping Dalinar. Unless Cultivation is just being manipulative as ever, I’d wonder if the Diagram is “really” a product of the nightwatcher via Mr. T., or if it’s source is Odium. 

     Perhaps the boon granted to Mr. T. By the nightwatcher about having the capacity to save everyone has absolutely nothing to do with the diagram, that it’s a red herring, and Odium wrote the diagram??