Jaddeth Speculation

[Storms!]

While rereading Elantris, I had a thought about Jaddeth. I doubt I'm the first to think of it, but it probably warrants discussion. Throughout the book, Gyorn Hrathen is constantly preaching that his god lives underground and will rise again blah blah blah. Now, a semi-realmatically aware reader might see this and be like "Shard!" However, we know that the Shard Vessels on Sel are dead, and the actual Shards are splintered and trapped in the CR, where they fused together to form the Dor (someone correct me if I'm wrong about them fusing).

Knowing this, we assume that Hrathen is just a priest preaching his god and Wyrn is just the Pope preaching some mythical god that doesn't exist (side note: this is not a shot at anyone's religion. I don't care what you believe. To each their own.). BUT what if Jaddeth is real and Wyrn is actually talking to him? Jaddeth could very easily be a mass of sapient Investiture, possibly but not necessarily combined with the cognitive shadow of one of the Vessels. Picture a Selish version of the Stormfather.

Unless there is a WoB directly refuting it, this is 100% plausible and could put a very interesting twist on the conflict. Any thoughts/insight? 

[RShara]

2 hours ago, Storms! said:

While rereading Elantris, I had a thought about Jaddeth. I doubt I'm the first to think of it, but it probably warrants discussion. Throughout the book, Gyorn Hrathen is constantly preaching that his god lives underground and will rise again blah blah blah. Now, a semi-realmatically aware reader might see this and be like "Shard!" However, we know that the Shard Vessels on Sel are dead, and the actual Shards are splintered and trapped in the CR, where they fused together to form the Dor (someone correct me if I'm wrong about them fusing).

Knowing this, we assume that Hrathen is just a priest preaching his god and Wyrn is just the Pope preaching some mythical god that doesn't exist (side note: this is not a shot at anyone's religion. I don't care what you believe. To each their own.). BUT what if Jaddeth is real and Wyrn is actually talking to him? Jaddeth could very easily be a mass of sapient Investiture, possibly but not necessarily combined with the cognitive shadow of one of the Vessels. Picture a Selish version of the Stormfather.

Unless there is a WoB directly refuting it, this is 100% plausible and could put a very interesting twist on the conflict. Any thoughts/insight? 

Wyrn is definitely being influenced by the Skaize.  They're probably the ones feeding him mythos and posing as Jaddeth.

[Storms!]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

Wyrn is definitely being influenced by the Skaize.  They're probably the ones feeding him mythos and posing as Jaddeth.

Skaze are essentially just Seons, but from Dominion right? Maybe they're just acting as "servants" of Jaddeth, and there is actually a big one giving orders. Kind of like how Syl refers to the Stormfather as "father." Skaze are supposed to be very similar to Seons, and considering the mundane, everyday way Seons are used, I have trouble believing that a simple Skaze would be able to sell itself as Jaddeth. Hence why I think there is a SF-like spren Skaze (I could see it working through the more mundane Skaze though).

 

Another thought I had was Dominion's Shardpool. When Raoden is in Devotion's pool, he hears a voice asking him something that I can't remember. Maybe Wyrn controls Dominion's pool and a similar voice influences him through it? Has Brandon said anything about the voice Raoden hears?

[RShara]

Skaize are basically evil seons.  They are definitely of Dominion, and seem to be driven to dominate.  And they have a huge influence on Wyrn and Fjorden.  Have you read the epilogue in Elantris 10A?  You get a glimpse of them there and they're pretty freaky, and not nearly as mundane as the seons.

Quote

Anyway, back to Fjon. He has two basic purposes in the book. First is to kind of prove to Hrathen that no amount of logic and planning can prepare him for everything. The second is to set up Wyrn as a more mysterious, and more powerful, character. I definitely meant to imply that Wyrn managed to see, limitedly, into the future and sent Fjon to the place where he’d be able to slay an important traitor to Fjorden. I also thought Fjon’s appearance a nice tie back to the early chapters.

https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-elantris-62-1/

 

And

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Locke219

Was Wyrn's drive to topple Elantris purely a typical, conquest-related motivation? Or did it arise after Fjordell gained access to the Dor?

Brandon Sanderson

The Skaze have a large amount of influence on most politics and most working in Fjordell.

source

 

[Storms!]

18 minutes ago, RShara said:

Skaize are basically evil seons.  They are definitely of Dominion, and seem to be driven to dominate.  And they have a huge influence on Wyrn and Fjorden.  Have you read the epilogue in Elantris 10A? 

The only version I've read is the original. I just got the 10A audiobook and I'm still near the relative beginning. "The Magics of Sel" is definitely my weakest class in Cosmere University, so pardon me if I'm rehashing old arguments.

That being said, if they were all bent on domination, wouldn't they go after each other as much as anyone else? They would need a strong hand guiding/coordinating them. We know it can't be one of the Shards, so what else is there?

 

Anything on that voice from the pool? Is it different in 10A?

 

[RShara]

I don't think they would need to fight for dominion over each other.  Maybe *after* everyone else was under their dominion. Also, just like each type of spren is basically the same spren with a slightly different flavor, I feel like the skaize would just think of themselves as a single force, rather than fight for dominion amongst themselves.

No, I don't think there's anything new about the voice.  My guess is that since the pool is concentrated Devotion, it was conveying those emotions/essences and his mind interpreted them into words.

[Weltall]

2 minutes ago, Storms! said:

That being said, if they were all bent on domination, wouldn't they go after each other as much as anyone else? They would need a strong hand guiding/coordinating them. We know it can't be one of the Shards, so what else is there?

Anything on that voice from the pool? Is it different in 10A?

We don't know exactly what the Intent of Dominion represents so we can't assume we know how the Skaze should be acting. For example, since we know that Fjorden is their center of operations and it's very big on hierarchy, it might be the Skaze work the same way and their creation also gave them an internal pecking order that they follow. 'Jaddeth' may be a larger Splinter but he doesn't necessarily have to exist as an actual entity. We know that he was originally a minor god that became the One True God(tm) after Shu-Dereth came to Fjorden, so he could have simply been a convenient hook for the Skaze to hang a story on. They want to dominate, they need a focus and this obscure god will do just fine.

Nothing new about the voice, but since we know that AonDor is primarily 'of Devotion' it remains a safe bet that the Perpendicularity is hers and the voice is either Aona in some form, or as RShara says it's just the Intent that Raoden's brain is somehow filtering into words.

[Storms!]

4 minutes ago, RShara said:

I don't think they would need to fight for dominion over each other.  Maybe *after* everyone else was under their dominion

I'll grant you that, but then your argument is basically that they all came together and agreed to use "Jaddeth" as their stated reason for wanting domination. Wouldn't it make more sense if there was actually something giving them orders, rather than them all lying and saying something is giving those orders? It just seems too convoluted for them all to be lying.

Those slight variations in personality can make a big difference as well. They could all agree on a goal (domination) but disagree on how to get there. That would lead to a lot of infighting. The more I think about this, the more strongly I believe that something more powerful has to be guiding them.

[Storms!]

9 minutes ago, Weltall said:

We know that he was originally a minor god that became the One True God(tm)

Are you saying that he was just some random pagan god and the Skaze co-opted him for their religion? Just looking for clarification

And I don't think he was some obscure god. That's like saying Protestants worship some obscure god. It's the same as the major god, just different rules. Shu-Dereth was just a minor offshoot of a major religion, no?

9 minutes ago, Weltall said:

since we know that AonDor is primarily 'of Devotion'

We do? Aren't all Shards roughly the same size? The Dor is both Shards squished together and forced into the Cognitive Realm. How can the Dor be more one than the other? Or were they not squished together and it's more Devotion in some places and more Dominion in others (because location matters in the CR)?

Edited April 24, 2018 by Storms!

[RShara]

17 minutes ago, Storms! said:

I'll grant you that, but then your argument is basically that they all came together and agreed to use "Jaddeth" as their stated reason for wanting domination. Wouldn't it make more sense if there was actually something giving them orders, rather than them all lying and saying something is giving those orders? It just seems too convoluted for them all to be lying.

Those slight variations in personality can make a big difference as well. They could all agree on a goal (domination) but disagree on how to get there. That would lead to a lot of infighting. The more I think about this, the more strongly I believe that something more powerful has to be guiding them.

I guess it could go either way.  We haven't really seen any hint of a controlling entity, but it could be there.

12 minutes ago, Storms! said:

We do? Aren't all Shards roughly the same size? The Dor is both Shards squished together and forced into the Cognitive Realm. How can the Dor be more one than the other? Or were they not squished together and it's more Devotion in some places and more Dominion in others (because location matters in the CR)?

Yeah the Dor is a mix of both Dominion and Devotion.  If you were to compare a "cup" of the Dor in one country vs another, it'd be the same.

Quote

Brightlord Maelstrom [PENDING REVIEW]

If you were to somehow use a receptacle to gather some part of the Dor, say there was a way of doing that. And you were to do one on both extremes of the planet. Would it be the same thing?

...Say, you have a container than can contain part of this plasma? ...Theoretically? You do that, taking one part of the planet, say Elantris, seal it up. And then you were to take another one, and fill it up in MaiPon and compare them, would it be the same Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, it would.

source

But the Arelish are slanted more toward Devotion, than Dominion, I think is what Weltall was trying to say.

Edited April 24, 2018 by RShara

[Weltall]

FYI, double-posting is frowned upon so when you're the last person to reply in a topic you can just edit your last post to include more responses, rather than making a whole new one.

32 minutes ago, Storms! said:

Are you saying that he was just some random pagan god and the Skaze co-opted him for their religion? Just looking for clarification

And I don't think he was some obscure god. That's like saying Protestants worship some obscure god. It's the same as the major god, just different rules. Shu-Dereth was just a minor offshoot of a major religion, no?

Yes, that's what I'm suggesting is possible, though it's not something that's been confirmed.

But Jaddeth is indeed called a minor god. Sarene finds an old copy of a poem called Wyrn the King, which is very different from the version known in the present day and she comments that Derethi priests have been rewriting the histories. In this old version, Jaddeth was a 'relatively unimportant god' who cared for rocks underground. Clearly, Jaddeth was not always the One True God of a religion, or at all important. Shu-Dereth made Jaddeth important but he wasn't originally part of the religion, which began in JinDo.

Quote

We do? Aren't all Shards roughly the same size? The Dor is both Shards squished together and forced into the Cognitive Realm. How can the Dor be more one than the other? Or were they not squished together and it's more Devotion in some places and more Dominion in others (because location matters in the CR)?

The Dor itself is both Shards mashed together but individual cultures (and by extension since they're kind of linked on Sel, expressions of the Dor's power) may be closer to one Shard than the other. Brandon has said that Wyrn is a 'follower of Dominion' and we know the Skaze are Splinters of Dominion. We also know that Jaddeth is 'more Dominion' and Domi 'more Devotion' but with some mixing involved. And AonDor is named after Devotion's Vessel and its power is centered near Devotion's Perpendicularity so...

Edited April 24, 2018 by Weltall

[Wandering Investor]

AonDor is powered equally by Dev and Dom through the Dor, but is heavily influenced by Dev. Notice that many of the Elantrians are described as being heavily devoted to something. 

Odium took specific steps after killing Dev and Dom to keep the powers from being repaired or gaining sentience. That's why he stuffed them into the cognitive realm. I don't know how that works, but it makes it very unlikely that a new splinter of Dev or Dom could develop intelligence. So Jadeth is most likely a tool of the Skaze.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium locked the Selish Shards in the Cognitive Realm to keep them from achieving sentience or someone Ascending.

Footnote: taken from General Q&A
source

 

[Mistspren]

So, just a thought here, Brandon has spoke of how the landscape itself is gaining sentience on Sel in the AU essays, which leads to an interesting possibility. Jaddeth could be the growing consciousness of the land itself, "waking up", and the skaze could be either using it as a tool or working collaboratively with it. Jaddeth is described as a god of earth, rocks, etc. fitting nicely with being a landmass. Also, the growing prominence and references to waking from his slumber could be due to the slow formation of consciousness naturally found in stagnant investiture.

The skaze likely took notice of the forming intelligence, and seeing its potential use, began to influence it to support them while it was weak minded and young. Drawing a parallel to the stormfather, who, despite not "being" the highstorm, had enough power over it to call one at the end of WoR, the landmass could possibly manipulate itself, which, due to the highly location based magic on Sel, could be a powerful tool (see the chasm in Arelon, which could have even been caused by 'Jaddeth' under the skaze's orders to topple the Elantrians, a major threat to their Dominion of Opelon).

That escalated quickly. I apologize for the rather baseless assumptions.

That said, it is entirely possible that the skaze are using Jaddeth as a puppet to control Wyrn and as a tool to aid their conquest. This also has interesting implications, regarding whether the sentience is separate for different parts of the world, or one mind. So many future plot threads...

Edited May 4, 2018 by Mistspren