17th Splinter

[OB] Odium on Scadrial

16 posts in this topic

I know that the red cloud surrounding Scadrial in BoM is theorized to be either autonomy or odium. But after OB, we know that Odium sees himself as a shard of passion, or strong emotion. Then in SoS Paalm tries to "free" people from Harmony with strong emotion, or passion. To me that definitely points to Odium as the shard interfering on Scadrial

Thoughts?

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Mistborn Era 2 is after Stormlight 5, so I don't think it's Odium.  I don't think Stormlight 5 will end in a defeat, which freeing Odium would (in my mind) count as.

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27 minutes ago, RShara said:

Mistborn Era 2 is after Stormlight 5, so I don't think it's Odium.  I don't think Stormlight 5 will end in a defeat, which freeing Odium would (in my mind) count as.

it..might..? but i mostly think its another shard maybe. Trell is coming up hard, and i wonder if Autonomy isnt part of that (trell people have made quotes that i think would link Autonomy)

I was curious myself if it wasnt Odium as well. Might be? SA 5-6 is suppose to be a time skip. Maybe Odium got free and fled to take care of Harmony since he fears it, and Harmony is rather new. 

Least its my theory 

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See, Odium being free would mean that the protagonists have failed in at least one major way.  Books 1-5 are supposed to be their own arc, then 6-10 are another arc, with an overarcing story that ties them both together.  Having the first arc end with a failure, I feel would be a bad idea.

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25 minutes ago, RShara said:

Having the first arc end with a failure, I feel would be a bad idea.

but if they fail, it gives arc 2 a purpose

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But again, ending series 1 on a failure isn't generally a good writing choice.

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If they (Knights Radiants) have temporarily saved Roshar, but can see that it is temporary at best, and that the next time around will be worse, then it could be very good writing. 

Personally, I suspect it is Autonomy working/coordinating with Odium, but that is just my two cents. 

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Odium mentions remaking(I interpret this to mean destroying) Roshar after he is freed, and several characters from books 1-5 will be in 1-6, so its unlikely he is freed. Probably... maybe... That said, WoB confirm that Odium has influence all over the cosmere, so he could be involved in the attack against Harmony, just indirectly.

Autonomy is suspected to be the primary threat to Scadrial and Harmony for three reasons. 1. The name Trell, comes from Trellism which is one of Sazed's religions, and autonomy is known for co-opting religions. 2. Bleeder seems focused on freeing everyone from God's control, aka granting them autonomy. 3. Odium is allied with some Cosmere Powers that Be, and Autonomy is a candidate for being an ally(that one doesn't have much proof so its kinda weak)

White Sands Spoilers 

Spoiler

Future connections between Trell and Autonomy. Someone named Trell appears in the White Sands prose and graphic novels. Trellism focuses on the sun and stars, and Taldain has a notably unique star setup, with the Sun being worshiped as a God. 

 

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Though this probably deserves its own thred or has even already been discussed but the idea spawned from reading this thread so Ill land it here for now as you guys helped me produce my very reasonable lines of thought for this..

Doesnt the old Scadrian Trell Religion sound very simmilar to the Rosharian Purelake religeon?

Cant remember it 100% but its something like they worship the many eyed god (stars) but they pretend to worship the many eyed gods jealous brother with his one giant eye (sun)..

Autonomy on Roshar maybe?

Purelake is kinda isolated (isnt it) hence autonomy..

Im rarely right with these things (damnation you Brandon your brilliant man). Anyway, im prepared to be humbled B)

!~ HIF ~!

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21 minutes ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

Though this probably deserves its own thred or has even already been discussed but the idea spawned from reading this thread so Ill land it here for now as you guys helped me produce my very reasonable lines of thought for this..

Doesnt the old Scadrian Trell Religion sound very simmilar to the Rosharian Purelake religeon?

Cant remember it 100% but its something like they worship the many eyed god (stars) but they pretend to worship the many eyed gods jealous brother with his one giant eye (sun)..

Autonomy on Roshar maybe?

Purelake is kinda isolated (isnt it) hence autonomy..

Im rarely right with these things (damnation you Brandon your brilliant man). Anyway, im prepared to be humbled B)

!~ HIF ~!

Nah.  Trell had a brother, Nalt, that they didn't like.  And they thought Nalt was ostentatious because of the glaring bright eye, whereas Trell was better with his thousand tiny lights.

The Purelakers liked sunlight but I don't think they thought that Nu Ralik was of the sun, or that Vun Makak was the night or stars.

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The two religions do share a theme of a Jealous brother, and a more beloved brother. After reading that part of Roshar, I immediately thought of Trellism. It could just be Brandon reusing a theme in a religion because it fits and/or he forgot he already used it, or maybe its an example of how different people can form similar beliefs and patterns in religions... OR its Autonomy spreading her/his/it's ever-expanding religious influence across the cosmere!? More data needed.

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6 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

The two religions do share a theme of a Jealous brother, and a more beloved brother.

I'm inclined to think that's the most likely answer. The jealous brother, or sibling rivalries, is a recurring theme in real-world religions. The most obvious example being Cain and Abel, as well as Joseph and his brothers, Zeus and essentially all of his siblings, etc. I think the easiest explanation is that religion is built to reflect and inform about real life experiences. Sibling rivalries actually do exist, and so it makes sense that people would craft religious stories based on the things they see occurring around them.

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2 minutes ago, Strifelover said:

I'm inclined to think that's the most likely answer. The jealous brother, or sibling rivalries, is a recurring theme in real-world religions. The most obvious example being Cain and Abel, as well as Joseph and his brothers, Zeus and essentially all of his siblings, etc. I think the easiest explanation is that religion is built to reflect and inform about real life experiences. Sibling rivalries actually do exist, and so it makes sense that people would craft religious stories based on the things they see occurring around them.

Normally, I'd agree because it is much more realistic that way. But, Trellism has some strong ties to Taldain. And Bavadin is known for co-opting religions. With those two pieces of information in mind, I view Autonomy taking successful religions from one world and seeding them on others as entirely possible.

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@RShara you're right, thanks for the humbling.

I reread the purelake scene and I was quite wrong. The good brother "God" they worshipped was never indicated to be the stars as I previously suggested and the jealous brother god was not even suggested to be the sun. I badly missinterpreted this and inverted it my mind. The "good" god is mentioned mainly in his thoughts, and the part that got me was at the start of the scene where he thought about the sun and how hot it was and than mentioned the good god had provided a horrible day (which I obviously thought as the jealous brother), but on reread it could easily read; "gods what a horrible day" and not "the sun god gave me a horrible day". 

So no, I was very wrong in the above post. Though I still believe there is correlations to these deities and Autonomy. 

Cheers @Wandering Investor for the support ^_^.

To add to my propaganda on this subject...

How heavily is Autonomy's relationship to water?

White Sands?

Patji?

Trell... ahhhhhheehhhhhh..? Hmmmm, I cant back this up regarding water.

But The Purelake!!!

Eh.. eh..

Food for thought :rolleyes:

!~ HIF ~!

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3 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

Normally, I'd agree because it is much more realistic that way. But, Trellism has some strong ties to Taldain. And Bavadin is known for co-opting religions. With those two pieces of information in mind, I view Autonomy taking successful religions from one world and seeding them on others as entirely possible.

I definitely agree with those ties between Trelagism (OG religion on Scadrial pre-Era 1) and Taldain. I just think there are certain themes that you're bound to see in religion because they reflect human nature, and then there are some cases that seem a bit more specific. Trelagism and it's callbacks to Taldain are a lot more specific than just your average human nature story - we've got a guy on Taldain named Trell, hatred of the sun on a planet that has no particular focus on it and then the eventual shift to Trellism which seems very Autonomy-y. So I'm definitely with you on that. Just saying that not every common theme found across religions is an indication of some common origin or Cosmere-wide religious conspiracy.

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45 minutes ago, Strifelover said:

I definitely agree with those ties between Trelagism (OG religion on Scadrial pre-Era 1) and Taldain. I just think there are certain themes that you're bound to see in religion because they reflect human nature, and then there are some cases that seem a bit more specific. Trelagism and it's callbacks to Taldain are a lot more specific than just your average human nature story - we've got a guy on Taldain named Trell, hatred of the sun on a planet that has no particular focus on it and then the eventual shift to Trellism which seems very Autonomy-y. So I'm definitely with you on that. Just saying that not every common theme found across religions is an indication of some common origin or Cosmere-wide religious conspiracy.

I agree with that. I find the similarities between the religions to be suspect, but not proof. Common themes in religions arising from common themes in humanity is a very Brandon thing to do, so its entirely possible. But the Autonomy bit is also possible.

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