[OB] Elhokar's suspicion

[Sun Maker]

Was Elochar paranoid of an assassin solely because his father was assassinated? Or was it some slow approach of his spren studying him? Or something else?

[Weltall]

As he was genuinely attracting a Cryptic his paranoia clearly had some basis in reality. (and by definition he'd need sufficient cracks in his soul) so combine that with the way his father was assassinated by a man with powers that shouldn't exist and I think we can forgive him for being just a bit worried. And there's still the mystery of his gemstones during the chasmfiend hunt and Jasnah's research on how bloody dynasties in Vorin kingdoms have been historically, which just might have been a worrying factor for him if he knew even a fraction of the stories his sister had been researching.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Weltall

[Wyndlerunner]

@Weltall, oh yeah, I hadn't even thought of Jasnah's research ("Jasnah! Stop scaring your younger brother about succession wars!- Gavilar Kholin)

But then again, if the same assassin that killed his dad started killing all the world's monarchs, and being studied by a Cryptic with a terrifying symbol for a head- he probably has some grounds for his paranoia 

[Zea mays]

Ooh, I have’nt made this connection. In WOK, Adolin and Dalinar are annoyed with El for not trusting them. As a reader, we think he is a whiney idiot.

By the end of OB we learn that if Dalinar had not been “pruned” by Cultivation, he would have eventually killed Elhokar and gone on a mad conquest spree. El is old enough to remember The Blackthorn before the change. 

In retrospect, Maybe he was just properly paranoid. Poor Elhokar. 

[AC12]

3 hours ago, Weltall said:

And there's still the mystery of his gemstones during the chasmfiend hunt

I believe it is mentioned somewhere that Elhokar himself put the weakened gemstones in his Plate so that Dalinar would start taking him more seriously when he told him about assassination attempts. But some very good points.

Edited April 17, 2018 by AC12

[The One Who Connects]

9 minutes ago, Wyndlerunner said:

the same assassin that killed his dad started killing all the world's monarchs

Especially in light of news from Azir. I distinctly remember Lift overhearing something to the tune of "we've lost two Primes in a week." Szeth killed the Prime, hung around and killed his successor. He killed the King, and Elhokar is his successor. In his shoes, I'd absolutely be worried.

Edit: @AC12. Elhokar cut the girth strap on his saddle(which would not really put him in danger) in order to provoke an investigation. The weakened gemstones were an act of actual sabotage by parties unknown, which was only revealed because Elhokar's self-sabotage provoked an investigation.

Edited April 17, 2018 by The One Who Connects

[RShara]

18 hours ago, AC12 said:

I believe it is mentioned somewhere that Elhokar himself put the weakened gemstones in his Plate so that Dalinar would start taking him more seriously when he told him about assassination attempts. But some very good points.

No, Elhokar didn't do the gemstones, he did the strap.  I think the gemstones might have been weakened because Elhokar was drawing in a tiny bit of their stormlight, since he was on the Radiant path.

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

@RShara hadnt thought of that!

I dont remember this being concluded though for some reason I always assumed the gemstone sabotage was caused by Moashes friends trying to assassinate him without suspicion..

!~ HIF~!

[hypatia]

I remember the last thing we hear about the gemstones was at the end of WoK.

Wasn't it the deal that Dalinar will look what's behind this in exchange to becoming the Highprince of War? After that the whole affair is somehow forgotten...

Edited April 19, 2018 by hypatia

[Wandering Investor]

Elhokar was naturally suspicious, which when combined with all the other things, like the assassin and seeing Cryptics in mirrors and out of the corners of his eyes, made for not entirely undeserved paranoia. 

And yes, the gem thing was kinda abandoned, but that makes sense considering the war and new storm and whatnot.

[Dahak]

2 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

Elhokar was naturally suspicious, which when combined with all the other things, like the assassin and seeing Cryptics in mirrors and out of the corners of his eyes, made for not entirely undeserved paranoia.

And of course Sadeas has been plotting against the Kholins since the Rift.

[Wandering Investor]

Just now, Dahak said:

And of course Sadeas has been plotting against the Kholins since the Rift.

No evidence that Sadeas plotted against Gavilar. It was only years later that he set himself against Dalinar specifically. At the time he was trying to keep Elohkar under his influence.

[Dahak]

Just now, Wandering Investor said:

No evidence that Sadeas plotted against Gavilar. It was only years later that he set himself against Dalinar specifically. At the time he was trying to keep Elohkar under his influence.

He was the one supplying the rebellion that got Evie killed wasn't he?

[Quickbronze]

No; the lord of the Rift said he was in order to lure him into a trap.

[Wandering Investor]

57 minutes ago, Dahak said:

He was the one supplying the rebellion that got Evie killed wasn't he?

That was a lie by the Lord of the Rift. Sadeas attempted to act as a decoy the night of Gavilar's death, at great risk to himself, and several of his viewpoints show a very high level of respect to Gavilar. He did eventually consider a coup and killing Elhokar, but that was only at the end of WoR.

[Angsos]

Sadeas probably never entirely trusted Dalinar after the Rift trap but I think Sadeas and Dalinar were like Alexander's generals. As long as he was around they cooperated but as he did, the empire fell apart. It also didn't help that Sadeas did his part the assassination night but Dalinar was drunk.

[hypatia]

Over all I'm at a loss what the "masterplan" of Gavilar was - he is partly responsible for this situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he left his heir with just a title, the Princedom and with this the whole military might was for Dalinar.

This at a time, where Dalinar was drinking himself slowly to death and before his visit to Cultivation - Gavilar didn't know he will change. For me this looks almost like Gavilar hadn't wanted Elhokar to be/stay the king, with this he left Elhokar like a lamb at the slaughter, dependent at the mercy of the Highprinces.

More so - at the moment of his death his last thoughts weren't for his son, but again Dalinar with the cryptic "most important words...", interpreted as "The way of KINGS".

All of this ends up with Elhokar, a king with no lands, no army, with a capital amidth the Princedom of his uncle before the pruning - it seems to me like a wonder he had survivrd that long.

Edited April 23, 2018 by hypatia

[Elandera]

2 hours ago, hypatia said:

Over all I'm at a loss what the "masterplan" of Gavilar was - he is partly responsible for this situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he left his heir with just a title, the Princedom and with this the whole military might was for Dalinar.

This at a time, where Dalinar was drinking himself slowly to death and before his visit to Cultivation - Gavilar didn't know he will change. For me this looks almost like Gavilar hadn't wanted Elhokar to be/stay the king, with this he left Elhokar like a lamb at the slaughter, dependent at the mercy of the Highprinces.

More so - at the moment of his death his last thoughts weren't for his son, but again Dalinar with the cryptic "most important words...", interpreted as "The way of KINGS".

All of this ends up with Elhokar, a king with no lands, no army, with a capital amidth the Princedom of his uncle before the pruning - it seems to me like a wonder he had survivrd that long.

From what I've understood, Gavilar was part of the Sons of Honor. The his plan was to return the Radiants by returning the Voidbringers. I've always believed he was so focused on that goal that he'd pretty much forgotten the kingdom and his family. 

There also was an element that he didn't know he was going to die so soon. He and his brother worked together nearly seemlessly. He didn't need to worry that he didn't have direct control of armies. He had the loyalty of his brother and the other High Princes (however that may have come about). His goal was never to rule a Princedom, but a kingdom.

The Alethkar system of rule was still very new. It hadn't been united like that since Sunbreaker (if I'm getting the name correctly). So it was easier to unite if they allowed High Princes to retain their own land. It's actually not too dissimilar from traditional monarch rules, where they'd give land and castles to Dukes, Earl's, etc. to govern.

Gavilar, and Elokhar by default, still had control over the armies through control of the High Princes. Gavilar was able to exact that power, but Elokhar hadn't gained the same loyalty. He was thrust onto the throne earlier than any expected.

As for the most important words, I always interpreted that as being the first oath of the Knights Radiant. Since restoring them was Gavilar's ultimate goal, it would make sense that he would see those as the most important words a man can say.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Elandera
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[hypatia]

@Elandera

Partly I'm also this opinion, but Gavilar had the Kholin Princedom, the army and so the power, whereas Elhokar just inherited the title and nothing more. I don't see so much loyality within the Highprinces - neither for Elhokar, nor for Gavilar.

But I think you're right - the problem is he died before his plans came into their own - there were anything with the crownlands - I believe this would have become in the end the new center of the kingdom and - of cause - his plan to let the reawekened Parshmen loose upon nations and Princedoms without warning, spreating chaos and death in every country with the slaves - in the end he could pick up the remains and be a real king, even possibly over more than just Alethkar. The Parshmen would in a way work for him and eleminate the opponents.

Perhaps I have underestimated him.

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, hypatia said:

his plan to let the reawakened Parshmen loose upon nations and Princedoms without warning, spreading chaos and death in every country with the slaves - in the end he could pick up the remains and be a real king, even possibly over more than just Alethkar. The Parshmen would in a way work for him and eliminate the opponents.

When put like that, it sounds a lot like what Taravangian was doing. The difference being that Taravangian's tool(Szeth) was more easily controlled, and much more precise, whereas the Parsh would just destroy what didn't destroy them.

1 hour ago, hypatia said:

I don't see so much loyalty within the Highprinces - neither for Elhokar, nor for Gavilar.

Their loyalty was fading, and Gavilar knew it. He indirectly mentions this to Eshonai during his "unite them" tangent. That's one of the reasons why he sprung for the "alliance" out of nowhere. He needed to accelerate the timetable before the kingdom fractured beneath him.

The plan needed an enemy so that the Highprinces would have something better to do than petty rivalries and betrayal. Dalinar noted "the princedoms uniting against House Kholin" during his conquest flashbacks, which shows the concept works in small-scale. Unintentional as it may have been, the Vengeance Pact is also proof of concept, for the first few years until the Highprinces started fracturing again. It's basically a successful short-term test of the concept, and Dalinar shows in his "I remember when we had purpose" spiel that he saw the value of that success.

In the face of this, it's not surprising that Dalinar is now trying to do exactly what Gavilar was aiming to do, but in full-scale and for the long-term.

The Alethi Highprinces had nothing better to do than lie, scheme & betray. So Gavilar planned to create something more important for them to focus on, lest they destroy themselves.
The World Leaders have nothing better to do than stay isolated & scheme. Dalinar needs to show them that they have to focus on something more important, lest they get destroyed.

The only real difference between Gavilar's plan and Dalinar's newfound purpose is that Gavilar created an enemy, while Dalinar used an existing one.

Edited April 23, 2018 by The One Who Connects

[hypatia]

Yes, this "unite against a foe" does help, but as we see mostly temporally.

But his plan with the Parshmen - and I believe he had expected something more dangerous - hadn't not only affected Alethkar, every region with Parshmen would be attacked.

This is also risky - what if he dies, what if someone else uses the situation to unite under his rule?

It was also astounding for me that neither of his Highprinces was into this plan - not even Sadeas or Dalinar - so yes, I think it possible that Taravagian's plan with Jah Keved was inspired from this - we know they were in contact.

Elhokar - there was something in OB I hadn't expected:

Right, neither of the Highprinces show loyality for him, but somehow he had managed to be the king for his people.

The Fused even use this when they bring Alethi in the palace to show them the blood.