MountainKing

[OB] Cohesion and Tension

16 posts in this topic

So I was surfing the Arc Arcanum and found two WoB's listing Brandon's working ideas on those two surges.

Cohesion

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

The Willshapers have to have Cohesion, because Cohesion is the "grab something solid and melt it and push it in any direction you want..." it's the weak atomic force.

It's, you can take this and push your hand into it and leave a hand print, or things like that, and that's a Willshaper thing, not a Bondsmith thing.

Footnote: In the context of looking at the Radiant chart
source

Tension

Quote

Questioner

Can you tell me anything about Tension or Cohesion?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't truly written these magics in yet, so they might change as I actually write the scenes. But they are... Tension is the ability to take something flexible and make it rigid. Which you think sounds simple, but there are so many cool things you could do with that.

source

 

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Not sure what the goal of this thread is, but if you just want some discussion of these Surges in general, I can already say Brandon messed up in that first WoB. Wikipedia:

Quote

The weak interaction takes place only at very small, sub-atomic distances, less than the diameter of a proton.

Leaving a print in a material is more on the order of molecular bonds, which is confusing, as Tension clearly works with that as well.

So, the problem is that both work with solid materials, which tend to consist of molecular rosters and arrangements, and it is hard to seperate those into two distinct parts, even though on a macro scale the difference between the Surges appears quite clear. I think that the most likely actual difference beween the two is this:

Cohesion works by changing the phase of solid materials (as Brandon says "melt it") to allow you to modify them, and then reforming them as solid materials once you are finished. Possibly, this also works on liquids or gases, but I think those are already covered by Adhesion, which seems to be related to chemical cohesion (as opposed to geological cohesion).

Tension works by increasing or decreasing the strength of molecular bonds in solid materials, allowing you to break bonds more easily (bending, stretching, etc solid materials) or less easily (a material that can withstand something that would logically break it).

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47 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Not sure what the goal of this thread is, but if you just want some discussion of these Surges in general, I can already say Brandon messed up in that first WoB. Wikipedia:

Leaving a print in a material is more on the order of molecular bonds, which is confusing, as Tension clearly works with that as well.

So, the problem is that both work with solid materials, which tend to consist of molecular rosters and arrangements, and it is hard to seperate those into two distinct parts, even though on a macro scale the difference between the Surges appears quite clear. I think that the most likely actual difference beween the two is this:

Cohesion works by changing the phase of solid materials (as Brandon says "melt it") to allow you to modify them, and then reforming them as solid materials once you are finished. Possibly, this also works on liquids or gases, but I think those are already covered by Adhesion, which seems to be related to chemical cohesion (as opposed to geological cohesion).

Tension works by increasing or decreasing the strength of molecular bonds in solid materials, allowing you to break bonds more easily (bending, stretching, etc solid materials) or less easily (a material that can withstand something that would logically break it).

But both then would be manipulating inter molecular forces, originally I thought that one manipulated intra molecular forces and the other goes inter molecular forces, but that doesn't fit what we have seen.

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Just now, MountainKing said:

But both then would be manipulating inter molecular forces, originally I thought that one manipulated intra molecular forces and the other goes inter molecular forces, but that doesn't fit what we have seen.

The problem with that is that solids tend to effectively be very large molecules with a bunch of imperfections along the way (good luck smashing a dent into a perfect molecule...).

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58 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

The problem with that is that solids tend to effectively be very large molecules with a bunch of imperfections along the way (good luck smashing a dent into a perfect molecule...).

What do you mean?

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1 minute ago, MountainKing said:

What do you mean?

On a molecular scale, most solids look more or less like this, with the white dots being atoms:

Spoiler

Afbeeldingsresultaat voor crystal lattice electron microscope

So basically, the entire thing is one big molecule.

An ball-and-stick example, showing molecular bonds:

Spoiler

Afbeeldingsresultaat voor crystal lattice

 

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2 hours ago, Leyrann said:

On a molecular scale, most solids look more or less like this, with the white dots being atoms:

  Reveal hidden contents

Afbeeldingsresultaat voor crystal lattice electron microscope

So basically, the entire thing is one big molecule.

An ball-and-stick example, showing molecular bonds:

  Reveal hidden contents

Afbeeldingsresultaat voor crystal lattice

 

Oh god I know where this is going, just please don't start claiming that glass is a liquid because it lacks a crystalline intermolecular structure.

I'm guessing Brandon's thought toward these processes has mostly been just the general idea that Tension makes flexible materials extremely hard/durable/whatever and Cohesion makes hard things flexible.  I doubt he's put an excessive amount of time into researching Van der Waals forces :P .

I think what sparked this topic originally is that one of the surges might have moved or been renamed?  Tension and Cohesion are both Stoneward surges, but which one of the two was shared with the Willshapers vs. the Bondsmiths might have changed in Brandon's mind over time.

Edited by Subvisual Haze
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Hmm. Rheology. Solid and liquid are ideals, but not spoken ones :P. Most substances we think of as either solid or liquid really have characteristics of both.

And yep, glass is the classic example, as it is actually partly a liquid that flows very verrrrrry slowly. Just check out old stained glass windows or even just old plate glass. It's thicker at the bottom than at the top.

The best example is snot, of course. Our bodies can manipulate its characteristics to be more liquid or solid on demand.

 

...I have no idea what this thread is about.

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22 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I think what sparked this topic originally is that one of the surges might have moved or been renamed?  Tension and Cohesion are both Stoneward surges, but which one of the two was shared with the Willshapers vs. the Bondsmiths might have changed in Brandon's mind over time.

Actually, I believe Brandon changed what was what in our minds. (Well, Peter did, back before we knew all the orders)

Quote

PeterAhlstrom
Sigh. Some of this is wrong. I'm getting clarification.

Argent
Also, Peter, if it's wrong because Brandon messed up during the signing, tell him he owes us more information!

Maybe this will work...

Peter Ahlstrom
OK, I talked to Brandon about the chart. He says that in the typical chaos of a signing, he didn't notice that the circles that were being pointed to sometimes weren't the ones he thought they were. Anyway here is what I have to say about the chart:

Gravity and Pressure should be switched. The "surface tension" one should be switched with the unrevealed one next to it.

Also, the in-world names for many of the Surges haven't yet been canonically revealed and may not ultimately match what's here. For example, where it says light, on my chart I have Illumination.

Argent
Thanks, Peter, (always) good to know. Pretty much all of us have been working with the default assumption that names can change, so that at least is warning we've been operating under anyway :)

So Ishar's order has pressure & "surface tension"? This sounds defensive. I now have to wonder whether Dalinar would belong with these guys...

Karaokeang
I have updated the chart! You can find it here! Thanks bunches Peter!!!

Spoiler

Orders.jpg

Mailliw73
I like Bondsmiths much, much better as #10 than #8. It just didn't feel right to me before. This seems like a much better fit, IMO.

The ones who thought that Tension was shared with Kalak's Order was actually us, all those years ago. As far as we're aware, Brandon has given Tension to Ishar's Order since 2013. (Though, there was that one mistake/typo in Oathbringer...)

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The mistake that @The One Who Connects is referring to:

Quote

Pagerunner

I was at the Houston signing, and Brandon referred me to you on a few technical questions that I was asking him, since he he was quite "brain dead."

First was what Surges the Bondsmiths have. Based on the ordering in the Ars Arcanum in WoR and OB, they should have Tension. But the application of the shared Surge we saw for both Stonewards and Bondsmiths in OB looks to line up more with Brandon's previous description of Cohesion from the Words of Radiance tour. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/223/#e6061, although he did identify it as a Willshaper Surge there.) Brandon believed it was an error in the Ars Arcanum, and that Bondsmiths do have Cohesion, but he told me to confirm that with you.

Peter Ahlstrom

What power did you see in the book that Bondsmiths and Stonewards share?

Pagerunner

In Chapter 38:

The Shardbearer pressed his hand against the incline leading up to the Voidbringer, and again the stone seemed to writhe. Steps fromed in the rock, as if it were made of wax that could flow and be shaped.

...

"And that Shardbearer I saw? A Herald?"

No. Merely a Stoneward. The Surge that changed the stone is the other you may learn, though it may serve you differently.

Which seems to align with how Brandon has previously described Cohesion in the past, as opposed to Tension.

I assume this Surge is what Dalinar used to repair the temple of Talenel in Chapter 59, but that's not actually essential to the point.

Peter Ahlstrom

I think this has to be an error in the text.

Pagerunner

Sorry, which do you think is the error? The order of Surges in the Ars Arcanum? Or the Stormfather's statement to Dalinar?

Peter Ahlstrom

The Stormfather's statement.

Peter Ahlstrom

I have verified with Brandon that what the Stormfather said here is wrong and will be corrected in the future.

 

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2 hours ago, Stormfather-in-Law said:

Hmm. Rheology. Solid and liquid are ideals, but not spoken ones :P. Most substances we think of as either solid or liquid really have characteristics of both.

And yep, glass is the classic example, as it is actually partly a liquid that flows very verrrrrry slowly. Just check out old stained glass windows or even just old plate glass. It's thicker at the bottom than at the top.

The best example is snot, of course. Our bodies can manipulate its characteristics to be more liquid or solid on demand.

 

...I have no idea what this thread is about.

Noooooooooo I asked you not to propagate that horrible lie.  

If you cool glass it just becomes colder glass.  If you heat glass it turns into a liquid.  What does this tell you?  That glass is a solid state.

Glass is an amorphous solid.  Solids do not need to have an organized molecular structure to be solids.  It you supercool a liquid too quickly (or apply pressure) it may not form a proper crystalline structure, but instead be an amorphous solid.  Subatomic structure is less important in distinguishing a solid from a liquid than presence of freezing enthalpies/heat of fusion indicating a phase transition.

Also, they were just bad at making windows in the Middle Ages.  We have very old telescope lenses that still function.  If glass flowed to any significant degree over time this would be impossible.

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7 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Oh god I know where this is going, just please don't start claiming that glass is a liquid because it lacks a crystalline intermolecular structure.

I'm guessing Brandon's thought toward these processes has mostly been just the general idea that Tension makes flexible materials extremely hard/durable/whatever and Cohesion makes hard things flexible.  I doubt he's put an excessive amount of time into researching Van der Waals forces :P .

I think what sparked this topic originally is that one of the surges might have moved or been renamed?  Tension and Cohesion are both Stoneward surges, but which one of the two was shared with the Willshapers vs. the Bondsmiths might have changed in Brandon's mind over time.

But that means that Cohesion and Tension would be the same but opposite. I very much doubt that is the case, because no other Surges are even remotely opposite to one another.

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I'm still horribly confused by what Surge Dalinar used to repair those temples in Thaylen City. I'm fairly sure that it's some nonsense with Adhesion because repairing intimate objects doesn't sound like anything Tension would do. Tension normally destroys objects and, as a concept, cannot be used to fix cracks since it's a pulling force.

 

I guess it's also used to describe the force a string applies to an object, including one connected. Since the Surges partially appear to work on a semantic level, I guess you could stretch it to be some kind of connecting/fixing power. That makes my inner mechanical engineer want to commit atrocities in outrage though. Much simpler and sensical to play it off as spiritual Adhesion for objects.

Edited by Knight Oblivion
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Maybe he used cognitive adhesion to combine cognitive aspects together. and their physical aspects follow accordingly. (This is probably not the case but we don't have a full understanding what the cohesion and tension surges mean.)

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13 hours ago, Knight Oblivion said:

I'm still horribly confused by what Surge Dalinar used to repair those temples in Thaylen City. I'm fairly sure that it's some nonsense with Adhesion because repairing intimate objects doesn't sound like anything Tension would do. Tension normally destroys objects and, as a concept, cannot be used to fix cracks since it's a pulling force.

 

I guess it's also used to describe the force a string applies to an object, including one connected. Since the Surges partially appear to work on a semantic level, I guess you could stretch it to be some kind of connecting/fixing power. That makes my inner mechanical engineer want to commit atrocities in outrage though. Much simpler and sensical to play it off as spiritual Adhesion for objects.

Maybe both?  Where the Adhesion is like glue just to get the pieces temporarily stuck together and then the Tension is reinforcement to reinforce the now single object?

Another possibility: it might have been just Adhension.  We've always seen Kaladin use Adhesion to temporarily stick 2 different objects together.  They naturally separate when the stormlight runs out.  Maybe the fact Dalinar here was re-combining a single object (as the temple's spren saw itself), meant the Stormlight healed the temple permanently.  Kind of like Stormlight healing/Regrowth, except working on a non-living thing.  Almost like forgery.

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I assumed the Bondsmith healing the stone would be part of their Resonance with Adhesion AND tension. 

Edited by Xtafa
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