[OB] Kaladin, Unite Them!

[MountainKing]

3 hours ago, Stormfather-in-Law said:

The whole episode with Kaladin's squires was really the genesis of my post. That members of Bridge Four, who shared in Kaladin's personal struggle through great hardship together, would become his squires makes total sense. But when people started getting added to the mix that never experienced any of that, I started wondering where the limits were. Does Kaladin identifying with them make them his squires, or does their feeling of inclusion in Kaladin's group make it happen? I really don't know; probably both. But I did start paying more attention to Kal's relationship with Bridge Four and their collective sense of identity.

I believe that Kaldin's order just has a lot of squires unlike other orders.

[Yvainnie]

3 hours ago, Stormfather-in-Law said:

The whole episode with Kaladin's squires was really the genesis of my post. That members of Bridge Four, who shared in Kaladin's personal struggle through great hardship together, would become his squires makes total sense. But when people started getting added to the mix that never experienced any of that, I started wondering where the limits were. Does Kaladin identifying with them make them his squires, or does their feeling of inclusion in Kaladin's group make it happen? I really don't know; probably both. But I did start paying more attention to Kal's relationship with Bridge Four and their collective sense of identity.

I don’t think it is neccesarilly relationship with Kaladin that makes squire, he hardly met some of them. And in Bridge Four chapters it is clear that it is more about inner struggles of mind and about relationship with whole Bridge Four not just Kaladin. But it sounded like you have to have some inner strengh and certain point of view about life itself (so your oaths would match their order. And who said that Kaladin has to be head of the orded?

[Stormfather-in-Law]

1 hour ago, Yvainnie said:

I don’t think it is neccesarilly relationship with Kaladin that makes squire, he hardly met some of them. And in Bridge Four chapters it is clear that it is more about inner struggles of mind and about relationship with whole Bridge Four not just Kaladin. But it sounded like you have to have some inner strengh and certain point of view about life itself (so your oaths would match their order. And who said that Kaladin has to be head of the orded?

I was speaking about Kaladin's squires (not Windrunners, but those who can fly only when Kaladin was near). So, nothing of oaths or the structure of the order itself. Because some of Kaladin's squires later achieved a Nahel bond, the line is sometimes confusing. 

I think for the squires, a relationship matters in some way - all of Bridge 13 goes up as squires to Teft (who trained them) at the end of OB. 

[Yvainnie]

4 minutes ago, Stormfather-in-Law said:

I was speaking about Kaladin's squires (not Windrunners, but those who can fly only when Kaladin was near). So, nothing of oaths or the structure of the order itself. Because some of Kaladin's squires later achieved a Nahel bond, the line is sometimes confusing. 

I think for the squires, a relationship matters in some way - all of Bridge 13 goes up as squires to Teft (who trained them) at the end of OB. 

Squires still have to say at least first oath and they are squires to the order not to Kaladin. And Skybreaker squires they have to say second one too. But I don’t remember reading that Windrunner squires or Kaladin squires said second one? Did they? Confusing....

Edited April 11, 2018 by Yvainnie

[Harbour]

On 9 апреля 2018 г. at 7:15 PM, Hufdud said:

I don’t have the WoB on hand but I remember there being one that it is technically possible for someone to bond two spren at once. What if, rather than Kaladin passing on his bond to Syl, Dalinars bond to the Stormfather gets passed to Kaladin and our favourite flying Bridgeboy becomes the true master of the sky and storms?

Yeah, on Roshar the one who controls the storms controls the world itself. Wouldnt be surprised if Kaladin will shape up to be a messianic type of character by the end of the book 5 or 10.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Harbour

[Isilel]

On 9.4.2018 at 6:44 PM, Leyrann said:

This is now my new favorite theory. Dalinar will give the bond to the Stormfather to Kaladin at some point, and he gets access to three Surges instead of the usual 2, and maybe even something extra for Adhesion?

 

So, there definitely is evidence supporting this theory - Kaladin does attract glory-spren on several occasions, which, as we now know, are particularly associated with the Bondsmiths, Syl's jealousy towards them in OB, repeated chats with and a couple of visions from the Stormfather... but I really hope that it doesn't happen. Because it would be so, so predictable. Yes, Sanderson has done a lot to try to differentiate Kaladin from a stereotypical fantasy protagonist, but he still is the SA character who fits the trope most closely. Which is why many readers expected him to take over from Dalinar at some point since WoK. And here is the thing - Kaladin is _a_ protagonist, one of several, not _the_ main protagonist. This story has an ensemble cast, rather than being about Kaladin and his side-kicks.

 

On 9.4.2018 at 6:44 PM, Leyrann said:

Also: Remember how Kaladin rode the storm and, as far as I am aware, is the only one other than Dalinar who has talked to the Stormfather (except when the Stormfather was speaking to Dalinar and others at once, like at Dalinar and Navani's marriage)

 

Yes, Kaladin was the only one apart from Dalinar who rode the storm on-screen, however the Stormfather did also talk to Eshonai just before her transformation and to Lopen, when he accepted his Second Oath. He also talked to Navani when they visited the vision of Aharietam, but that was at Dalinar's behest.

 

On 10.4.2018 at 10:00 AM, hypatia said:

I don't really think this will be a theme for the first arc, but even without war and having a target painted on his back, Dalinar will age. His story centers much more the past then the future.

I disagree. Dalinar's past certainly informs his current decisions, but his lived experience is what made him capable of becoming the Bondsmith that he is, and perhaps more. And his decisions in the "present" very much shape the narrative on the grand scale. I strongly suspect that the Bondsmiths always tended to be older, it is the nature of their position. And yes, IMHO it is very likely that in the days of the Radiants, prospective Bondsmiths started in other Orders, because I am convinced that they don't have any squires, yet it would have made little sense for outsiders unfamiliar with the institutional culture to suddenly find themselves having to guide the Knights and keep them united.

And sure, Dalinar will age - unless he fully ascends to Honor, that is, but significantly older people like Taravangian and Adrotagia are still around and active, even without the invigorating effect of stormlight, which makes one very healthy for one's age. And didn't Sadeas think in his PoVs in WoR that he "hopefully" had decades left to live yet?

[LerasiumMistborn]

Yes, Starmfather talked to Lopen. I think, he talks to all the Windrunners, cause they bond with honorsprens.

[Hufdud]

On 2018-04-12 at 4:50 AM, LerasiumMistborn said:

Yes, Starmfather talked to Lopen. I think, he talks to all the Windrunners, cause they bond with honorsprens.

While this seems accurate, I think what some people are trying to say is that Kaladin’s interactions with the Stormfather have been unique in the way Kaladin has sought HIM out and then challenged him. Even Dalinar seems to more often than not simply back off from a topic or conversation when he gets the sense that the Stormfather doesn’t want to talk about it. Kaladin did the opposite, pressing him until he had to respond, even if it wasn’t in the way Kal wanted... just my two cents

[galendo]

On 4/11/2018 at 4:27 AM, Vissy said:

Unity is not his MO though. Kaladin doesn't seek to unite, he seeks to protect people and actively also seeks to lead them. He's asserting himself into positions of power and authority very strongly. And besides, I don't believe for a second that Syl would ever willingly "pass on the bond". She's like a soulmate to Kaladin at this point, literally actually.

Sort of yes but sort of no.  He wanted to protect Bridge Four, but the way he did so was by uniting them into a single, unified group,  That seems to be what he's doing with the squires/Radiants of the bridge crews, too.  I think there's not a whole lot of difference between protecting, leading, and uniting, at least in Kaladin's view.  Kaladin is a Windrunner, but judging by the Ideals we know so far, he could easily have been a Bondsmith or an Edgedancer instead.

I do agree that Syl getting handed off to someone like a spare pair of boots would be pretty weird, though.

On 4/12/2018 at 2:26 AM, Isilel said:

 

So, there definitely is evidence supporting this theory - Kaladin does attract glory-spren on several occasions, which, as we now know, are particularly associated with the Bondsmiths, Syl's jealousy towards them in OB, repeated chats with and a couple of visions from the Stormfather... but I really hope that it doesn't happen. Because it would be so, so predictable. Yes, Sanderson has done a lot to try to differentiate Kaladin from a stereotypical fantasy protagonist, but he still is the SA character who fits the trope most closely. Which is why many readers expected him to take over from Dalinar at some point since WoK. And here is the thing - Kaladin is _a_ protagonist, one of several, not _the_ main protagonist. This story has an ensemble cast, rather than being about Kaladin and his side-kicks.

I kind of disagree here.  Yeah, it's an ensemble cast, but almost every ensemble has a lead or two and Kaladin is definitely one of the leads.  I also think there are some good narrative reasons to get rid of Dalinar, mainly to allow Adolin and Renarin to take a bigger role, but also to up the tension, since killing him off would be a pretty big victory for Odium's side.  I thought he was going to die in book one, then thought he was going to die in book two, finally accepted that he probably wouldn't be dying in book three, and am now back to hoping for him to die in book four.  I think it's more likely that Dalinar dies in five than in four at this point, but one can always hope.

Also, I really wish the story was mostly about Kaladin and his sidekicks.  I realized during Oathbringer that all I really want to read are The Bridge Four Archives, with Dalinar as an honorary member.  Except for Sigil's and one or two of Moash's scenes, I loved all the Bridge Four scenes, and even the scenes I didn't love were still better than like half of the book.  If I could read an entire book about Bridge Four's trials and tribulations, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[LerasiumMistborn]

Truth is, Sanderson in not an author who "gets rid" of his characters.Especially when it comes to his favorites like Dalinar.He kills characters very rarely and not until the very end of the story.

It's interrsting to me how people who like Kaladin want him to become an over-powerew walking cliche.I like him too, but I like him the way he is now.When I started WoK, I didn't like it at first.I thought it's another story of "farm boy getting powers and becomes Chosen One".Thanks God, Kaladin turns out a lot better character.And I want see his development according to this course.Making him the one and only hero in this story, putting aside other characters, would completely ruin Kaladin and Stormlight Archive for me.

Fortunately, Sanderson is better than this, and chances for something like thais to happen are incredible low.

Edited April 15, 2018 by LerasiumMistborn

[Vissy]

Kaladin could have been a Dustbringer, Skybreaker or any other order of KR as well, given another set of circumstances for him. But I think he's actually a very unique KR because of Syl and how she chose him, and this makes him uniquely a Windrunner. 

[galendo]

3 hours ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Truth is, Sanderson in not an author who "gets rid" of his characters.Especially when it comes to his favorites like Dalinar.He kills characters very rarely and not until the very end of the story.

I dunno.  I mean (Mistborn and Warbreaker spoilers below)

Spoiler

He killed off Kelsier pretty early in Mistborn, only a third of the way through the trilogy.  And he killed off Lightsong in Warbreaker.

And, heck, he killed off Elhokar in Oathbringer.  I think he's willing to make the sacrifice when the sacrifice is necessary.

Quote

It's interrsting to me how people who like Kaladin want him to become an over-powerew walking cliche.I like him too, but I like him the way he is now.When I started WoK, I didn't like it at first.I thought it's another story of "farm boy getting powers and becomes Chosen One".Thanks God, Kaladin turns out a lot better character.And I want see his development according to this course.Making him the one and only hero in this story, putting aside other characters, would completely ruin Kaladin and Stormlight Archive for me.

I think you're looking at this wrong.  Other than Adolin, Kaladin's like the least powerful main character at the moment.  Getting rid of Dalinar (doubtless the most overpowered character at this point) and splintering the Stormfather would be a pretty good idea, in my opinion, precisely because Dalinar is the overpowered cliche who's crowding out other characters.

A number of people are speculating that the Stormlight Archive will end with Honor being reforged, and if someone's going to do it, the only real choices are Kaladin, Dalinar, and Taln.  I've already expressed my opinion on Dalinar's continued purpose in the story (namely, to go out in a blaze of glory), so that leaves only Kaladin and Taln.  I think either one could be interesting.  Maybe you'd rather have it be Taln?  But I don't think I'd argue with anyone who wants it to be Kaladin, either.

[Vissy]

Anyone with Dalinar's powers would be overpowered, TBH. And the biggest OP-plz-nerf-guy is Odium, their enemy. 

[MountainKing]

10 hours ago, galendo said:

I dunno.  I mean (Mistborn and Warbreaker spoilers below)

  Hide contents

He killed off Kelsier pretty early in Mistborn, only a third of the way through the trilogy.  And he killed off Lightsong in Warbreaker.

And, heck, he killed off Elhokar in Oathbringer.  I think he's willing to make the sacrifice when the sacrifice is necessary.

I think you're looking at this wrong.  Other than Adolin, Kaladin's like the least powerful main character at the moment.  Getting rid of Dalinar (doubtless the most overpowered character at this point) and splintering the Stormfather would be a pretty good idea, in my opinion, precisely because Dalinar is the overpowered cliche who's crowding out other characters.

A number of people are speculating that the Stormlight Archive will end with Honor being reforged, and if someone's going to do it, the only real choices are Kaladin, Dalinar, and Taln.  I've already expressed my opinion on Dalinar's continued purpose in the story (namely, to go out in a blaze of glory), so that leaves only Kaladin and Taln.  I think either one could be interesting.  Maybe you'd rather have it be Taln?  But I don't think I'd argue with anyone who wants it to be Kaladin, either.

Kelsier is still alive, and Elhokar originally died in the draft of book one, so he was living on owed time. 

[Leyrann]

39 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Kelsier is still alive, and Elhokar originally died in the draft of book one, so he was living on owed time. 

Kelsier very much died, at least as far as MB1 and (so far) MB2 are concerned. He may technically not have gone to the Beyond (still dead though), but for all story intents and purposes he can be considered dead, finito, done for. For Elhokar the very same thing counts. Yes, he died earlier in the original draft. Guess what? This is not the original draft. He's dead, he's killed off, and arguably at the most tragic moment possible.

[MountainKing]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

Kelsier very much died, at least as far as MB1 and (so far) MB2 are concerned. He may technically not have gone to the Beyond (still dead though), but for all story intents and purposes he can be considered dead, finito, done for. For Elhokar the very same thing counts. Yes, he died earlier in the original draft. Guess what? This is not the original draft. He's dead, he's killed off, and arguably at the most tragic moment possible.

But your saying that Sanderson can and will kill of main characters but Elhokar was never a main character and was never meant to survive, and Kelsier never went to the beyond so his death doesn't count and he was resurrected.

[Leyrann]

27 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

But your saying that Sanderson can and will kill of main characters but Elhokar was never a main character and was never meant to survive, and Kelsier never went to the beyond so his death doesn't count and he was resurrected.

I wasn't actually the one that brought them up. I do agree with it though.

As far as Mistborn is concerned, Kelsier was killed off. As far as Stormlight is concerned, Elhokar is killed off.

Yes, the greater Cosmere might have more in store for them (well, Kelsier), but the story isn't the greater Cosmere. The story is Mistborn. There's a reason Brandon always talks about being able to read everything seperately, and it's not because we're supposed to look at it as one giant story.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Leyrann

[galendo]

16 hours ago, Vissy said:

Anyone with Dalinar's powers would be overpowered, TBH. And the biggest OP-plz-nerf-guy is Odium, their enemy. 

That's what's so great about killing off Dalinar and splintering the Stormfather.  It solves all sorts of problems.

And yeah, Odium's overpowered.  But the bad guys are supposed to be overpowered.  Look at the Lord Ruler.  Or Sauron.  In almost every story, the enemy's got quite the foot up on the good guys.

@MountainKing: Just to clarify, yeah, I was looking at Mistborn as a single trilogy, not taking into account anything that happened afterward.

[Vissy]

What problems are introduced by an OP Dalinar who's still just an insect compared to Odium? For all we know, Bondsmiths have always been big parts of why the Desolations failed.