269 posts in this topic

<M1004 Overheating>

Kai scrolled through the list of important Machineborn in the palace. He’d need to check and maintain each one individually over the next week until his Spymaster figured out which one had been replaced with a replicant. As he checked through each one, an error message popped up on Salthis.
<Error M1004 Overheating>
He frowned. How exactly was Salthis overheating? Had the Machineborn’s coding gone too long without the Wode checking it? Another error message popped up.
<Error Core Meltdown in Progress>
Well then, that wasn’t good. He clicked on it, bringing up diagnostics. Then he swore. “I knew i should have sanitized those frigging tables.”
Whatterthose’s codes had just deleted themself.


Vote tally:
Elenion (1): Orlok
Crimsn (1): Bort
Drought (1): Devotary
Orlok (2): Bard, Crimsn
Coop (2): Elenion, Elandera

Walin was killed! He was a Machine Born!
Coop was Lynched! He was a Machine Born!

The Turn will end in
bla_1523948399.png

Player List:

  1. DroughtBringer (Player List)
  2. Eternum (x/0)
  3. Elenion (TK421)
  4. Devotary (Player4.exe)
  5. Randuir (Cane)
  6. Young Bard (Halting Algorithm)
  7. Bort (Black IC)
  8. Orlok Tsubodai (McAfee) Immune to conversion until Turn 3
  9. Elandera (Rayda)
  10. CrimsnWolf (O7npC)
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See guys? I knew what I was doing! I just wanted to make sure Orlok would be the one who became immune.

I am really sorry, I panicked in the last second. I was going to be adding my vote to Coop, but my fingers decided otherwise.

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If there is a Bot who is not Sophie, all the Bots have access to a doc, and the faction can make a kill.

Did we badly misread this, @A Joe in the Bush? This really looks like it says that Sophie cannot kill unless there's a bot on her team.

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I ended last cycle with a "Wait, what?" and I'll begin this one with a "Wait, what?" So it looks like Coop was lynched and Orlok got immunity, which isn't bad. But how was Walin killed? the rules specifically state (emphasis mine)

Quote

If there is a Bot who is not Sophie, [then] all the Bots have access to a doc, and the faction can make a kill.

This seems to clearly state that Sophie has access to a kill if and only if there is a Bot who is not Sophie.

Secondly:

Quote

The Order of Action:
Roleblocking (Lover, Fiance, Spouse)
Defenses (Knight, Knight Errant)
Votes (Steward, Voting)
Attacks (Melhi Faction Kill, Knight Lancer)
Scans (Grand Steward, Royal Steward)
Conversions (Sophie)

According to the Order of Actions, the elim kill comes before the conversion, so any convert this turn would not have counted towards Sophie having a faction kill or not. That leaves 4 options:

1. Sophie started with a convert, so they had access to the elim kill N1
2. Somehow there is a Knight Lancer out there already
3. I'm misreading the rules
4. GM error

@A Joe in the Bush Can you confirm that the presence of the elim kill was not GM error?

edit: ninja'd!

Edited by Elenion
wrote ninja'd
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2 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

Did we badly misread this, @A Joe in the Bush? This really looks like it says that Sophie cannot kill unless there's a bot on her team.

. . . I badly miswrote that. that Comma should be a period, or rather that whole sentence should not be in the rules. I can't believe i didn't see that in there.

But yes, Sophie can kill while alone.

EDIT: @Elenion Chalk it down as GM Error in this case, but from the time i posted signups, i did not know that my original ruleset included that rule. Things may change because of that. I will talk it over with Seonid.

Edited by A Joe in the Bush
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That changes tactics up considerably. We can no longer rely on Sophie making an early conversion in order to gain a kill; it is now a viable strategy for them to lurk and kill until there are just a few of us left.

In other news: Devotary is cleared in my book, because Sophie was obviously not ignorant of the fact that they could kill.

 

Editing a reads list in:

  1. DroughtBringer: no read
  2. Eternum: no read
  3. Elenion: me
  4. Devotary: village for not knowing Sophie could kill, but yet Sophie killed
  5. Randuir: slightly village for giving advice, but Rand is crafty
  6. Young Bard: village for attempting to use Devotary's plan to get Orlok immune
  7. Bort: no read
  8. Orlork Tsubodai: no read
  9. Elandera (Rayda): village for being helpful and just seeming genuine
  10. CrimsnWolf (O7npC): village, because the point of being Sophie is to lie low
Edited by Elenion
added reads list
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When Rayda's program initialized, she was surprised (only slightly) to find much had happened. She expected someone would take the fall for what happened to Clippy. Poor Salthis. But what about Whatt? That couldn't have been a simple coding error. Who would be next?

I agree with most of Elenion's reads, who also appears village based on the Sophie kill analysis. Unless either he or Devotary are playing some serious mind games.

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1 hour ago, Elenion said:

That changes tactics up considerably. We can no longer rely on Sophie making an early conversion in order to gain a kill; it is now a viable strategy for them to lurk and kill until there are just a few of us left.

Well, If she waits too long then all of those she might want to convert are protected by having roles. Converting early increases the chance that a role gets passed to your team. I now agree that Sophie probably has only two lives, because if she had three I see no reason for her to have killed instead of converted this cycle.

As for reads, I think that crimsn-Wolf is likely village, as that was not the kind of stunt a Sophie with no converts would do. On the other hand, she said herself that she intended to hop on the Coop vote, which I something I could see Sophie doing...

I tentatively agree with the rest of Elenion's reads, with the exception of his village read on Young Bard. I don't think there's anything inherently village on working with Devotary's plan.

I expect our Sophie to be one of our more experienced players, btw. The Walin kill gave us very little information without clearing out a true inactive, while I'd expect a newer Sophie to have targeted an obvious threat (or a true inactive) instead. That only really rules out Elandera, Crimsn-wolf and maybe Eternum though.

Edited by randuir
grammar
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I'm not going to place a vote just yet, since we've got most of the day for discussions.

Rereading day one, there is something fishy about Elenium's first post - he got the rules right. Despite Joe's error in the rules, Elenium posted a projected timeline of deaths, which he later "corrected" (to be incorrect) after someone else told him about the typo. It strikes me as a bit odd that he would miss just that line when reading the rules.

And he jumped on the kill very quickly today - genuine confusion, or covering his tracks?

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22 minutes ago, Bort said:

I'm not going to place a vote just yet, since we've got most of the day for discussions.

Rereading day one, there is something fishy about Elenium's first post - he got the rules right. Despite Joe's error in the rules, Elenium posted a projected timeline of deaths, which he later "corrected" (to be incorrect) after someone else told him about the typo. It strikes me as a bit odd that he would miss just that line when reading the rules.

And he jumped on the kill very quickly today - genuine confusion, or covering his tracks?

I checked that, but we hadn't really discussed the possibility of Sophie not being able to kill before Elenion made that post. Devotary was the first to really bring that up aftewards. I can imagine that if you haven't read the rules very well you'd just assume Sophie would have a kill. This doesn't clear Elenion, of course, but I can very easily see a village!elenion doing this.

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@randuir don't know if you've been asked this yet... but why'd you change your profile picture? I like it, but it keeps throwing me off :P

 

Okay, I personally had read it as Sophie have a clue, and didn't pay nearly enough attention to Grammar to be confused. So it is possible, and I could see Len not noticing it.

I do agree that Devotary is probably cleared.

I feel like Bort was pushing harder than he needed to on Len, and that seems a bit suspicious. I haven't played with Bort a lot, but it is possible that he could be an elim, so I'll put a tentative vote on him for now. Bort.

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Hey, everyone. Sorry for being inactive up to this point. Been somewhat busy lately, and keeping track of 2 games at once gives me a lot less time.

I think that's just Bort's playstyle, @Droughtbringer. At least, he was pretty agressive in LG44. That's all the info I have on his playstyle, though, so I might be wrong.

I'm somewhat unsure of who to vote on, if anyone. Both the kill and the lynch lent us very little information, the deaths being a relative inactive and a contribution crusade victim, respectively.

Regarding the Sophie kill discussion, I personally think you all are reading far too much into it. At first, I also assumed Sophie had a kill either way. Though, in hindsight, I can see how her having a teammate to be able to kill makes a certain amount of sense, mechanics-wise.

@randuir Ow, my pride. :P

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I'm going to vote on Orlok, but this is likely not my final vote. The Walin kill was calculated to deprive the village of the information, and it did not seem to be motivated by fear, which are hallmarks of Orlok's style.

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I’ll be back on with thoughts later - I haven’t really had time to look at the game at all. @Elenion, would you explain again why you’ve cleared Bard?

More thoughts, as I apparently have time. I might encourage the Steward to claim now, for an early lynch. Sophie can’t have converted yet, which means we can nearly guarantee a village convert scanner without significant risk of it going to an eliminator.

@Elenion, I’m not the only one who plays like that, and am slightly suspicious of your vote on me for such a reason. It would also be a strong move for any other player, or indeed one who wished to create a mislynch on me.

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2 hours ago, Droughtbringer said:

@randuir don't know if you've been asked this yet... but why'd you change your profile picture? I like it, but it keeps throwing me off :P

The reason can best be summarized as 'just because'. I'll try to get future changes done between games though :P.

48 minutes ago, Eternum said:

@randuir Ow, my pride. :P

Yeah, sorry about that. You just never really appeared on my radar, I think. Now that I'm thinking back on it we've definitely played more games together than I realized though, so I probably should put you back on the list of suspicions :P.

 Anyway, voting has been slow, and that's not been helping discussion much. As I mentioned before, I think Sophie is among the more experienced players based on the kill on Walin, so If I drop those that I'm sure are fairly new, and remove devotary as well because I think he likely isn't Sophie (and myself because I know I'm not Sophie, but feel free to form your own opinion), we're left with:

  1. DroughtBringer (Player List)
  2. Eternum (x/0)
  3. Elenion (TK421)
  4. Young Bard (Halting Algorithm)
  5. Bort (Black IC)
  6. Orlork Tsubodai (McAfee)

Droughtbringer and Eternum have only two posts with real content between the two of them, so I don't have a read on them one way or another. I would like to note that Eternum's first post was this cycle, so there's a non-zero chance that eh wouldn't have been on to submit a kill if he was sophie.

Elenion has posted a bit more. He started D1 with discussing the likely amount of cycles we've got before we need to have lynched an elim. That's a fairly safe bit of discussion, but at that point in D1 I don't think there really was anything else to talk about. I'm not really sure what to think of doing a CC lynch, but he started that in the last couple of hours of the cycle, so we didn't lose much (if any) discussion because of that. Overall, I don't really have a read on Len either.

I'm very, very tentatively leaning village on young Bard right now.  Gah, I checked back to Lg43, and I was right in thinking that his play-style seemed similar, but I misremembered his alignment that game. Still, the way he jumped on one of Devotary's comments seems to me to be the kind of discrepancies a village player would be quicker to spot than an elim. Neutral/very slight village gut-read

Bort hasn't posted much either. He poked Crimsn during C1. However, the way he went after Elenion seems a bit odd. He didn't seem more aggressive than in previous games, but the way he was casting suspicion at Elenion I'm somewhat surprised he didn't back it up with a vote. Very slight Elim read.

I'm unsure about Orlok, but that's because I'm always unsure about him. Elenion is right that the kill that happened would be typical for Orlok, but it's not just typical for him. I really don't like the suggestion for lynching the steward though, as that means we'll be throwing this lynch away with likely very little discussion, for a bit of gain that will not help us find sophie, only her converts, and if Sophie decides to hold off on converting it'll not really gain us anything. Neutral/very slight elim read.

I'm going to vote on Bort for now, but that vote's not set in stone. I'd also like to encourage both Drought and Eternum to speak more.

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7 hours ago, randuir said:

I checked that, but we hadn't really discussed the possibility of Sophie not being able to kill before Elenion made that post. Devotary was the first to really bring that up aftewards. I can imagine that if you haven't read the rules very well you'd just assume Sophie would have a kill. This doesn't clear Elenion, of course, but I can very easily see a village!elenion doing this.

This is my point. The eliminators having to fulfil specific conditions to gain access to their kill is an unusual enough rule that it stood out - to me at least. Elenion assumed from the start that Sophie could kill immediately, against what it said in the rules, but which turned out to be true.

His initial timeline was for the actual rules, not the stated rules which turned out to be false (Fake news!!! :P ). I felt it suspicious enough to bring up, but like you, I can see it being a mistake that someone might make, which is why I didn't vote for him - I wanted to see what others thought first.

Also, Elenion seems to be trying very hard to lead the discussion. The perfect place for an eliminator. Of course, it's also the perfect place for an enthusiastic villager (who one would assume had read all of the rules carefully). Upon conclusion, Elenion, mostly because my vote has to go somewhere, and these are the best suspicions I have right now.

@Droughtbringer apparently enough to vote for me. I didn't think I'd pushed too hard, really.

I might be having the same problem as you. A lot of the people playing SE these days I never had the chance to play with before I quit playing a few years back, so I know nothing about most of your play styles.

@randuir - see the line above. This is why I am hesitant to place votes this early in the game. I don't know if what I am looking at is suspicious behaviour for the player, or just their normal play style.

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@BortI'll admit I'm trying to lead the discussion: this game could be decided in the next couple of cycles. Of course I'm trying to kick our analysis into high gear.

About the projections, that's because I didn't actually reread the rules before doing them, so I made the standard elim team assumptions: doc and kill.

1 hour ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

I’ll be back on with thoughts later - I haven’t really had time to look at the game at all. @Elenion, would you explain again why you’ve cleared Bard?

More thoughts, as I apparently have time. I might encourage the Steward to claim now, for an early lynch. Sophie can’t have converted yet, which means we can nearly guarantee a village convert scanner without significant risk of it going to an eliminator.

@Elenion, I’m not the only one who plays like that, and am slightly suspicious of your vote on me for such a reason. It would also be a strong move for any other player, or indeed one who wished to create a mislynch on me.

When he backed off of the Contribution Crusade lynch to vote on you, he left a basically-unassailable vote position. If I was Sophie, I would have grabbed onto the easy lynch opportunity and bandwagoned along. Bard skipped the opportunity and helped the village instead.

I wasn't trying to start a bandwagon, just getting my vote on the table until I could get something more solid. Right now I'm tipping between voting you or Bort, because of his aggressive move against me when I'm trying to help us by fostering discussion.

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@randuir, I hadn’t thought much on the idea, and was spitballing. With the limited number of players, and the new situation regarding kills, you’re probably right.

@Elenion, good to know on Bard. I do think that his move there is a pretty strong village move, although this being a conversion game, that also makes him an excellent target.

11 hours ago, Elenion said:

Wait, what? We voted on Orlok to get him possibly immune, not because we wanted to kill him!

This post rings out as false, to me. It strikes me as trying too hard. Something feels off about your actions regarding me, and with this I’m going to join Bort and vote for you. Elenion.

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8 minutes ago, Elenion said:

@BortI'll admit I'm trying to lead the discussion: this game could be decided in the next couple of cycles. Of course I'm trying to kick our analysis into high gear.

About the projections, that's because I didn't actually reread the rules before doing them, so I made the standard elim team assumptions: doc and kill.

That's just it, @Elenion these are exactly the arguments that either side would make - a villager trying to do the right thing, or an eliminator trying to mislead the thread. How to tell?

As I said, I'm only voting for you because I don't have any other suspicions. If I did have other suspicions, I'd probably give you the benefit of the doubt. As you say though, the game is likely decided within the next few cycles, so better to vote on little suspicions than on none at all.

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I'm in class right now so I can't say much, but I can tell you that I'm a vanilla, no role, no nothing. I'm fairly sure Sophie is one of you two who have voted on me, and if not it's one of Rand or Drought.

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13 minutes ago, Elenion said:

I'm in class right now so I can't say much, but I can tell you that I'm a vanilla, no role, no nothing. I'm fairly sure Sophie is one of you two who have voted on me, and if not it's one of Rand or Drought.

That's a list that covers almost half of the living players, and lines up with my estimate that Sohpie is one of the more experienced players, so I'd say that's a rather safe bet.

1 hour ago, Bort said:

I might be having the same problem as you. A lot of the people playing SE these days I never had the chance to play with before I quit playing a few years back, so I know nothing about most of your play styles.

@randuir - see the line above. This is why I am hesitant to place votes this early in the game. I don't know if what I am looking at is suspicious behaviour for the player, or just their normal play style.

This could be so, but your post on Elenion didn't say 'Guys, is this suspicious?', but rather 'Guys, take a look at how suspicious this is!', or that's how I read it at any rate. However, I don't think you're acting particularly different from last game in which I became very suspicious of you. 

I'll take a bit of time to re-evaluate my vote.

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More "Guys, I think this is suspicious, and here's my logic," but without wanting to commit at the time - we had all cycle to discuss.

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1 hour ago, Elenion said:

About the projections, that's because I didn't actually reread the rules before doing them, so I made the standard elim team assumptions: doc and kill.

I do believe that Elenion did not reread the rules before posting his projections, because his original one wasn't correct either. It assumed that Sophie could both kill and convert on the same cycle, which I'm fairly sure is not the case. It can't hurt to get this confirmed by @A Joe in the Bush, though.

Quote

Each player may only take 1 action per turn. Conversions, and Killings both count as actions.

Since being purposefully misleading about the rules isn't the best strategy for Sophie and a Sophie!Elenion probably would have known those particular rules, I'm leaning more village on Elenion.

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I'm going to retract my vote on Bort. I still think he's suspicious, but I was extremely suspicious of him in LG44 for pretty similar reasons, and I was wrong then. (I know LG44 is still ongoing, but Bort has already died there and his alignment has been revealed, so I assume mentioning this here is not an issue. My apologies if it is.)

That leaves me with the question of who to vote for instead. After what Devotary pointed out about Elenion's logic I'm now fairly certain that he isn't Sophie, so I'm not joining that lynch. I can see a Sophie!Orlok, somewhat, but I'd also hate to lynch him on what is a rather tentative 'maybe' right now.

Of those that I hadn't ruled out before I'm left with Drought, Young Bard, and eternum. Right now I'm not seeing a Sophie!eternum as he seems to have only properly joined the game this cycle, and I'm still gut-reading young bard as village..though he hasn't posted during this cycle yet ( @Young Bard).

By process of elimination, this'd place my vote on Drought. So Drought, consider this a poke vote. please try to talk a bit more so that I can actually judge you on your own merits rather than ending up with you because various others drop off the list.

Edit: also, this is likely my last post this cycle. I might be on just before turnover, but I won't guarantee that.

Edited by randuir
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