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So in Oathbringer, Dalinar says "I am Unity" and Odium responds with "We killed you" Naturally this leads people to believe that Unity might have been a shard or something. I have a different theory. In other post on the topic of Unity, I have expressed my belief that if Unity will ever exist it will be as a multi shard like Harmony. Recently I came up with the idea: What if Unity ALREADY existed as a Multi Shard before Harmony. Is it possible that at some point, probably right after the Shattering, several shards came together to form a multi shard called Unity? If this was true, what Odium said implies that him, and probably the other shards (He says "we" not "I") teamed up to kill Unity, and return it to its original Shards of Adonalsium state. This would also be what allows Odium to know that to become the most powerful being in the universe he can't take up other Shards otherwise he will take up there intent. Maybe the shard Odium was in fact part of Unity, and Rayse was not in fact one of the original sixteen people to shatter Adonalsium, but somebody who came latter. Please let me know you thoughts on this.

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I strongly doubt it. Cultivation and Tanavast were lovers who came to Roshar together, and the timeline we have worked out, if you include the desolations, puts them arriving there long enough ago that it's probably one of the earliest events we have any awareness of pre-shattering. 

You have 4950 back, just to the final desolation (4500 Rosharan years times 1.1). Add in the timeframe between then and the humans arrival from Ashyn... And your probably looking at a couple thousand years more.

I don't know if Harmony was the first Shard to change hands... But I do believe it was the first multi-shard. Rayse was one of the original Vessels, per the letters between Hoid and Frost "he is what we made him, and what he chose to be" (paraphrased). 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Brandon said offhandedly, "It is not random who got which Shard." Also, Shards very rarely change hands. Brandon emphasized the "very" there.

source

Quote

Thanatos17901

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

source

Rayse was an original Vessel, shards rarely change hands, and Harmony is the situation he was trying to prevent. All in all, I don't think there's been another multi-shard. 

Edited by Calderis
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19 hours ago, Calderis said:

I don't know if Harmony was the first Shard to change hands...

I do enjoy finding some of these obscure ones.

On 7/16/2017 at 1:48 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Regarding Vessels:

Quote

[–]Oudeis16Bronze 2 points 7 days ago 

I'll try to find it, I believe there's a WoB that Leras's death was the first time someone other than an original Shardholder took up a Shard...

[–]SageOfTheWise 4 points 4 days ago 

Yes, Preservation was the first shard to be held by someone outside the original 16. That answer is the inscription on my signed Mistborn leatherbound.

Guessing what else you said in the post b/c search function doesn't read quoteboxes... good times

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10 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I do enjoy finding some of these obscure ones.

I thought I remembered that one, but had no clue how to find it. Thank you as always. 

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Do you know if we ever got a picture of that for Arcanum?

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Is it possible that Dalinar interpreted the Shatd's intent differently? Instead if Honor being the intent he saw Unity?

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1 hour ago, Sahin the Just said:

Is it possible that Dalinar interpreted the Shatd's intent differently? Instead if Honor being the intent he saw Unity?

That's what I've been saying for a while. 

Honor as interpreted by Tanavast was individual bond focused. Dalinar is more group oriented. Everything we've seen about surgebinding that pertains to Honor would still function under the mantel of Unity, the focus of the intent would just be altered slightly. 

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12 hours ago, Calderis said:

Honor as interpreted by Tanavast was individual bond focused. Dalinar is more group oriented. Everything we've seen about surgebinding that pertains to Honor would still function under the mantel of Unity, the focus of the intent would just be altered slightly. 

That's really interesting! Both Honor and Unity are about binding people - either to ideals or to one another. All we really know about Tanavast (besides that he shared a drink with Hoid) is that he was romantically involved with Cultivation. Maybe his relationship with her, and the idea or potential oath associated with that, helped to shape the shard's intent. For Dalinar, post-Gavilar, his whole life has been about bringing people together so Unity makes sense. 

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11 hours ago, Strifelover said:

That's really interesting! Both Honor and Unity are about binding people - either to ideals or to one another. All we really know about Tanavast (besides that he shared a drink with Hoid) is that he was romantically involved with Cultivation. Maybe his relationship with her, and the idea or potential oath associated with that, helped to shape the shard's intent. For Dalinar, post-Gavilar, his whole life has been about bringing people together so Unity makes sense. 

A Shard's Intent cannot be shaped, it just is. The interpretation of the Intent by a Vessel can slightly change what the Shard does, however. Emphasis on slightly.

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9 hours ago, Leyrann said:

A Shard's Intent cannot be shaped, it just is. The interpretation of the Intent by a Vessel can slightly change what the Shard does, however. Emphasis on slightly

You seem pretty adamant about this but who is to say that the Intent is the name given to it and not just a name that was given to describe the Intent as best they could? While it is possible Odium could just be lying, he has said that he doesn't like the name as he thinks it fails to convey the entirety of his Intent so who is to say that doesn't qualify for the other Shards too. Take Ruin for example. Ati as far as we know had a very different view of the Intent than Sazed.

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24 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

You seem pretty adamant about this but who is to say that the Intent is the name given to it and not just a name that was given to describe the Intent as best they could? While it is possible Odium could just be lying, he has said that he doesn't like the name as he thinks it fails to convey the entirety of his Intent so who is to say that doesn't qualify for the other Shards too. Take Ruin for example. Ati as far as we know had a very different view of the Intent than Sazed.

The names given to the shards currently appear to be largely based upon the interpretations of the vessels. At their core, each shard embodies an unmutable concept, but as Leyrann said, that concept can be interpreted and applied different by different vessels, giving rise to the different names we see. 

For instance, Harmony is just based on how Sazed is currently interpreting the shards of Ruin and Preservation together, but it could've had another name if his interpretation of their base concepts (probably Discord.)

Quote

chasmfriend's friend (Paraphrased)

My friend asked for Brandon to write something about Harmony in her Alloy of Law.

Brandon Sanderson

There's another name Harmony could go by if he weren't able to control the conflict between his halves… *to Zas* Have you guys figured that one out yet? Oh, I'm not going to say anything. You have it on recording… I was pretty sneaky with that one so I don't know if you have it or not.

source

 

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6 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The names given to the shards currently appear to be largely based upon the interpretations of the vessels. At their core, each shard embodies an unmutable concept, but as Leyrann said, that concept can be interpreted and applied different by different vessels, giving rise to the different names we see.

That is pretty much what I was saying. The way Leyrann had worded their post had, at least to me and I could be mistaken, implied that the names were absolute.

Edited by StanLemon
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Just now, StanLemon said:

That is pretty much what I was saying, the way Leyrann had worded their post had, at least to me and I could be mistaken, implied that the names were absolute.

Yeah, I was agreeing with you. I don't think Leyrann was saying the names were absolute, just the intents were, hence him not bringing up names in his post. I think he just misinterpreted what you said by "shape the shard's intent," thinking that you thought that the shard's intent could be changed.

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13 hours ago, Leyrann said:

A Shard's Intent cannot be shaped, it just is. The interpretation of the Intent by a Vessel can slightly change what the Shard does, however. Emphasis on slightly.

I partially agree with you, but I partially disagree with you too. I get that each Shard has this overwhelming intent, but first I don't think it can be properly described in a single word. I think they are each a lot more complicated. And even though a Shard's intent is pretty overpowering (and seems to grow more so over time) the Vessel still can have a major impact on what the Shard actually does. Take a look at Ruin and Preservation, one of the early things they do is create Scadrial and life there - an act which in no way goes along with either of their intents. However, over time the intent does seem to win out since Leras couldn't really fight Ruin since it went against Preservation's intent, but Vin was not similarly held back presumably because she was so new.

We've also got pretty conflicting WOB's where Brandon has said that a Vessel can really only shift the Shard's name to a synonym, and another mentioned above that if Harmony can't control his conflicting intents he'd have a very different name (probably Discord). So I guess that's all to say, I agree that a Shard's intent is its intent, but it's a really complicated thing and how that filters through depends on the vessel.

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11 minutes ago, Strifelover said:

We've also got pretty conflicting WOB's where Brandon has said that a Vessel can really only shift the Shard's name to a synonym, and another mentioned above that if Harmony can't control his conflicting intents he'd have a very different name (probably Discord). So I guess that's all to say, I agree that a Shard's intent is its intent, but it's a really complicated thing and how that filters through depends on the vessel.

In the Harmony example... The name is problematic. It is not representative of the intents he holds, but in how they interact within him. "Harmony" due to his outlook and acceptance of the powers, or "Discord" if he had been less zen-like and allowed then to war internally. They describe Sazed, not the intents. So unfortunately, I don't think that this instance has any bearing on the argument of nature vs. interpretation. 

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3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

In the Harmony example... The name is problematic. It is not representative of the intents he holds, but in how they interact within him. "Harmony" due to his outlook and acceptance of the powers, or "Discord" if he had been less zen-like and allowed then to war internally. They describe Sazed, not the intents. So unfortunately, I don't think that this instance has any bearing on the argument of nature vs. interpretation. 

Might have to be an agree to disagree situation, but I actually think what you're saying about Harmony supports what I'm saying about Vessels and their Shards' intents. When he combined Ruin and Preservation, he created a new Shard with a new intent, the name of which has to do with how it's being filtered through the Vessel.

It's not like the 16 Shards' intents are some immutable Cosmere concept, that Adonalsium was made of those 16 concepts and when shattered they just simply broke apart. We have this WOB where Brandon says that had the shattering gone differently we could've ended up with different Shards:

Quote

Eric

If Adonalsium Shattered with intent, would he always Shatter with the same Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

It is plausible that it could've gone a different way.

Eric

So it could've been different Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that's plausible.

source

 

 

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@Strifelover but they haven't created a new intent. They may eventually as the Shards become more and more intermingled, but Sazed's inability to act is a direct result of two opposing intents acting on him. There is little he is able to do that isn't directly countered by half if his power. 

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TLDR; Tanavast wanted a bondsmith who can wield Honor's power without being the Vessel. That way they aren't overwhelmed by Honor's Intent and can remain focused on uniting people because uniting people is the best counter to Odium's strategy of creating constant war/strife. 

 

I wonder if this is Tanavast's idea. Odium feeds off of passion that is generated by the constant fighting he inspires. Uniting the people of Roshar (including the Parsh) would end the constant fighting which is Odium's main strategy.  The Oathpact was meant to end the constant fighting by sealing the endlessly reincarnating fused, but it failed. The Knights Radiant also broke their oaths. Men making oaths wasn't enough, a different strategy was needed. 

He sees a flaw inherent in Honor being too focused on individual oaths. He can't change it because he's the Vessel of Honor and has been for a long time. He knows he is dying and needs to give humanity the best chance he can. He gives a significant portion of his power to his bondsmith spren and gives them visions including the one where he tells the potential bondsmith "you must unite them" and about appointing a champion. That bondsmith isn't a full-time Vessel of Honor, so they won't be fully under it's influence constantly. However, they can summon a significant part of the power briefly, but repeatedly.  The result is a bondsmith who is focused on uniting through the nature of their order and being told "unite them" over and over in their head, but they can access Honor's power without it overwhelming them and causing them to lose focus on "uniting" to counter Odium. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

TLDR; Tanavast wanted a bondsmith who can wield Honor's power without being the Vessel. That way they aren't overwhelmed by Honor's Intent and can remain focused on uniting people because uniting people is the best counter to Odium's strategy of creating constant war/strife. 

 

I wonder if this is Tanavast's idea. Odium feeds off of passion that is generated by the constant fighting he inspires. Uniting the people of Roshar (including the Parsh) would end the constant fighting which is Odium's main strategy.  The Oathpact was meant to end the constant fighting by sealing the endlessly reincarnating fused, but it failed. The Knights Radiant also broke their oaths. Men making oaths wasn't enough, a different strategy was needed. 

He sees a flaw inherent in Honor being too focused on individual oaths. He can't change it because he's the Vessel of Honor and has been for a long time. He knows he is dying and needs to give humanity the best chance he can. He gives a significant portion of his power to his bondsmith spren and gives them visions including the one where he tells the potential bondsmith "you must unite them" and about appointing a champion. That bondsmith isn't a full-time Vessel of Honor, so they won't be fully under it's influence constantly. However, they can summon a significant part of the power briefly, but repeatedly.  The result is a bondsmith who is focused on uniting through the nature of their order and being told "unite them" over and over in their head, but they can access Honor's power without it overwhelming them and causing them to lose focus on "uniting" to counter Odium. 

From Mistborn we know there is quite the difference between what Dalinar can do and what a Shard can do. Additionally, the intent is inherent in the power. I would think that, if you use enough power, you will have to adhere to it's intent simply because you can't force it anymore (kind of like you can force a small stream with your hands but can't force a river and it'll just tug you along instead).

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16 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

From Mistborn we know there is quite the difference between what Dalinar can do and what a Shard can do. Additionally, the intent is inherent in the power. I would think that, if you use enough power, you will have to adhere to it's intent simply because you can't force it anymore (kind of like you can force a small stream with your hands but can't force a river and it'll just tug you along instead).

I'm not saying Dalinar is a Shard. I am saying he can wield some power of the Shard, specifically summon what Syl identifies as Honor's perpendicularity briefly. He is much more than a bondsmith he is bonded to a spren that holds / is a splinter of Honor's power or remnants.  "His remnants, your soul, my will" OB Chapter 119 Unity.  He is a conduit for a splinter of it's power, but isn't the Vessel of it.

From this WoB about Mistborn we know that a Vessel of a Shard can resist the Intent for many years. A Vessel is under constant influence of it's full power. Dalinar isn't the Vessel, is only bonded to a spren holding some of the power and only needs to focus on uniting long enough to get Odium to agree to a battle of champions and see his champion defeated.  

   
Quote

 

General Twitter 2018 (Jan. 1, 2018)
#5June 6, 2018 
 

Alvaro Lopez

Why Odium is stronger and worst evil than Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

One reason is that Ruin had a person in control of it who, for many years, fought against the impulse to destroy--and in the end, channeled it toward entropy and decay, necessary elements of the universe. Odium represents something else entirely.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I'm not saying Dalinar is a Shard. I am saying he can wield some power of the Shard, specifically summon what Syl identifies as Honor's perpendicularity briefly. He is much more than a bondsmith he is bonded to a spren that holds / is a splinter of Honor's power or remnants.  "His remnants, your soul, my will" OB Chapter 119 Unity.  He is a conduit for a splinter of it's power, but isn't the Vessel of it.

From this WoB about Mistborn we know that a Vessel of a Shard can resist the Intent for many years. A Vessel is under constant influence of it's full power. Dalinar isn't the Vessel, is only bonded to a spren holding some of the power and only needs to focus on uniting long enough to get Odium to agree to a battle of champions and see his champion defeated.  

   

 

To be honest, I don't see the difference between the two camps going on in this conversation. Let's break this down a bit: either Dalinar is acting as a de-facto vessel, or something, or he is temporarily accessing the power. Either way:

  • Using that much investiture shouldn't have much restriction on what he can do with it - recall how when Vin ascended, she literally destroyed ruin, which wasn't possible for preservation. So new vessels can act against their shard's intent.
  • Let's assume that Dalinar, for the purposes of this discussion, will live to a normal age (so like another 20 years or so, maybe? Max, 40-50 more).

There's absolutely no way that his remaining life span, combined with how slowly the intent twists the thoughts of a vessel, to start being influenced by Honor/Unity in any big way. Of course, it's possible he could truly ascend, which would change my assumptions and this conversation, but still not for the immediate future.

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Would Honor’s power even HAVE any restrictions that would be relevant to the fight against Odium though? It’s not like with Preservation in which fanatical pacifism is inherent within the Shard’s essence. There is nothing inherent within the concept of honor that should interfere with him combatting Odium or the Fused, whether directly or indirectly, or in uniting the people. At the very least not in the same way as Preservation.

Edited by Fanghur Rahl
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1 minute ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Would Honor’s power even HAVE any restrictions that would be relevant to the fight against Odium though? It’s not like with Preservation in which fanatical pacifism is inherent within the Shard’s essence. There is nothing inherent within the concept of honor that should interfere with him combatting Odium or the Fused, whether directly or indirectly. At the very least not in the same way as Preservation. 

Maybe, maybe not? I was just saying that even if there are any, they shouldn't matter for the next, say, 100 years or so.

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Unless it functions in a way analogous to Kaladin’s bond with Syl; when he violated his oaths, which could be thought of as the ‘intent’ of a Windrunner’s power (albeit in a very nebulous fashion), he effectively killed Syl, at least until he got his act back together. Maybe in that same vein, Dalinar wouldn’t be able to misuse Honor’s power without severing his connection to it in a similar way?

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1 minute ago, tmnsquirtle said:

To be honest, I don't see the difference between the two camps going on in this conversation. Let's break this down a bit: either Dalinar is acting as a de-facto vessel, or something, or he is temporarily accessing the power. Either way:

  • Using that much investiture shouldn't have much restriction on what he can do with it - recall how when Vin ascended, she literally destroyed ruin, which wasn't possible for preservation. So new vessels can act against their shard's intent.
  • Let's assume that Dalinar, for the purposes of this discussion, will live to a normal age (so like another 20 years or so, maybe? Max, 40-50 more).

There's absolutely no way that his remaining life span, combined with how slowly the intent twists the thoughts of a vessel, to start being influenced by Honor/Unity in any big way. Of course, it's possible he could truly ascend, which would change my assumptions and this conversation, but still not for the immediate future.

I'm not sure what all Dalinar can do I am just saying what we have seen him do with the power. Vin absorbed the power directly into her being while Dalinar has his soul bonded to a spren that is also a Splinter/Cognitive Shadow of Honor. There is an extra layer of remove which may make a difference. Preservation wasn't splintered at the time and Honor is, even if Dalinar merged directly he wouldn't be as powerful as Vin & Lord Ruler were. 

 

 
Quote

 

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)
#1 Share  Copy

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

 

 

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