Wayne's Resonance

[Strifelover]

16 minutes ago, marles said:

It can't really be a readiness to push on anything that comes close to him though because a bullet would be traveling to quickly for him to reactively push away. I think there is even a part that Wax says or thinks something along those lines (maybe about having to put up the "bubble" because he can't push bullets away by reflex).

 

I think iron feruchemy is about changing the user's mass, not how gravity is affecting them at any given moment. If it were gravity, Wax would be able to jump higher while storing or drop to the ground faster while tapping but he specifically mentions that tapping his metal mind does not make him fall any faster (I believe he mentions it to Khriss as well during their conversation in BoM).

I was mostly being facetious about the zen state of mind idea, but I actually made the point for the very reason you said too - that he doesn't possibly have fast enough conscious reflex to push on a bullet fired at him. But still, when you push on something using steel you have to specifically choose something to push on. You can just push in a general direction, and then something happens along in the way and so now you're pushing on it. That's why I'm saying the steelbubble doesn't seem to make sense.

That was probably too speculative of me to say iron feruchemy = gravity, but I do like the theory that there are base/fundamental types of magic in the Cosmere that span all magic systems. In that iron feruchemy is similar to the surge of gravitation, but I could be totally. For what it's worth, here's the quote from Wax and Khriss' conversation in Bands, she's asking him if he's ever increased weight while Steelpushing:

Quote

Lord Waxilliam, when you store weight, are you storing mass, or are you changing the planet's ability to recognize you as something to attract? Is there a difference? Your answer gives me a clue. If you slow when you become heavier midflight, then it is not likely due to you having trouble Pushing, but due to the laws of physics.

TBH, I don't know physics well enough to say if this quote supports my point or yours, but if it's still a mystery to Khriss then I say the jury's still out either way. 

[marles]

23 minutes ago, Strifelover said:

But still, when you push on something using steel you have to specifically choose something to push on.

I'm not familiar enough with WoB's and didn't see any in my quick search but I don't know if there is anything that says that pushes and pulls absolutely have to be directed specifically. I would think that having a push just generally around a coinshot is something that could be done with more experience/skill just like we know that more skilled users can affect objects in multiple places/see more than one line per object, tell color of an object based on the line connecting them and the object, vary the strength of their pushes, etc.

33 minutes ago, Strifelover said:

That was probably too speculative of me to say iron feruchemy = gravity, but I do like the theory that there are base/fundamental types of magic in the Cosmere that span all magic systems. In that iron feruchemy is similar to the surge of gravitation, but I could be totally. For what it's worth, here's the quote from Wax and Khriss' conversation in Bands, she's asking him if he's ever increased weight while Steelpushing:

Quote

Lord Waxilliam, when you store weight, are you storing mass, or are you changing the planet's ability to recognize you as something to attract? Is there a difference? Your answer gives me a clue. If you slow when you become heavier midflight, then it is not likely due to you having trouble Pushing, but due to the laws of physics.

TBH, I don't know physics well enough to say if this quote supports my point or yours, but if it's still a mystery to Khriss then I say the jury's still out either way. 

I agree that iron feruchemy might be related a bit to the same base magic as gravitational surges and probably some others but it's not quite the same. I wish I could find quotes from the books easily but I've mostly gone through them in audiobook form. In Khriss' comments that you quoted, she asked if he is storing the planet's ability to recognize him as something to attract (essentially if he is manipulating gravitational pull on him). But I'm pretty sure at some point he mentions falling at the same rate regardless of whether or not he is tapping his metal mind. But his change in speed midflight is because his lateral momentum is conserved. Momentum is mass multiplied by velocity, so if his momentum is conserved midflight, if he stores some of his mass he will speed up to compensate and likewise will slow down if he increases his mass by tapping the metal mind. I think there are a few occasions throughout Era 2 where Wax mentions decreasing his weight midflight to increase his speed.

I think the reason it still seems to be a mystery to Khriss is because until asking Wax they have incomplete information on the subject. They may not have had as much interaction with skimmers in general to test different theories but she also mentions that Wax is only 1 of 3 known crashers, so the interaction of his abilities is a pretty unique.

[Calyx]

I've always assumed that Wax's bubble was just him gently pushing in all directions, probably proportional to the momentum of any given object nearby. With experience, I don't doubt that other coinshots could do this as well. However, bullets have a lot of momentum - small mass, but very high velocity - and so I would think deflecting them would actually be fairly difficult. Here, Wax should have a pretty large advantage over a normal coinshot - his ability to alter his own mass would give him much greater control over his bubble.

The fact remains that we don't ever see another coinshot in era 2 that is remotely close to Wax's talent or experience, which makes separating his abilities quite difficult. That being said, I think that his resonance is that his bubble is far more effective than those of others, which seems likely because both of his abilities should play a role in creating it.

[The One Who Connects]

3 hours ago, marles said:

4 hours ago, Strifelover said:

But still, when you push on something using steel you have to specifically choose something to push on.

I'm not familiar enough with WoB's and didn't see any in my quick search but I don't know if there is anything that says that pushes and pulls absolutely have to be directed specifically.

Recall TLR vs Vin. Rashek casually raises his hand in her direction and pushes quite a few things: the metal in Vin's stomach and body, the steel doorframe, and scattered fragments of the stained glass window Vin broke in through.

I am not of the opinion that TLR consciously chose to push on the trace metals present in the coloring that was used to stain the stained glass window, and I'm fairly confident that both of you agree with me.

I'm not even sure TLR really chose to push on Vin either, for that matter. It feels like his intent was to push in a direction, and everything in that direction that could be pushed on was pushed: the solid metals in Vin's stomach, the trace metals in her body, the steel doorframe, the trace metal in the coloring of the stained glass, etc... he even rips her earring straight out of her ear during one of his pushes, and I doubt he meant to do that. He doesn't even appear to notice that he's done that.

3 hours ago, marles said:

But I'm pretty sure at some point he mentions falling at the same rate regardless of whether or not he is tapping his metal mind.

That sounds in line with Galileo's experiment with the lead balls. But.... while following Marsh towards the Conventical of Seran, Sazed stores most of his weight before jumping off the cliff, and I remember him practically floating downwards.

3 hours ago, marles said:

4 hours ago, Strifelover said:

That was probably too speculative of me to say iron feruchemy = gravity, but I do like the theory that there are base/fundamental types of magic in the Cosmere that span all magic systems.

I agree that iron feruchemy might be related a bit to the same base magic as gravitational surges and probably some others but it's not quite the same.

How knowledgeable are either of you on the Higgs field?

Quote

I asked Brandon about Iron Feruchemy at the release party, though. I have had a pet theory about Feruchemical iron for a while - that it messes with the person's connection to the Higgs field. Brandon confirmed it in the signing line. Exact words will, I'm sure, be on the transcript, but I asked specifically if it involved Higgs field stuff, and he said yes.

For those who don't know - the Higgs field is a quantum field that interacts with various particles and gives them their mass. The force carrier of the field is the Higgs boson, recently discovered by the LHC.

So, by decreasing your interaction with the Higgs field, you could decrease your mass without messing with the amount of matter in you. How it interacts with density would be more subtle, but I think that it works out most of the kinks with Feruchemical iron and density.

Edited April 12, 2018 by The One Who Connects

[Doomdrinker]

What if the other guy on the train was a crasher to? We know the Set makes extensive use of heamalurgy.

[Strifelover]

12 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Recall TLR vs Vin. Rashek casually raises his hand in her direction and pushes quite a few things: the metal in Vin's stomach and body, the steel doorframe, and scattered fragments of the stained glass window Vin broke in through.

I am not of the opinion that TLR consciously chose to push on the trace metals present in the coloring that was used to stain the stained glass window, and I'm fairly confident that both of you agree with me.

I'm not even sure TLR really chose to push on Vin either, for that matter. It feels like his intent was to push in a direction, and everything in that direction that could be pushed on was pushed: the solid metals in Vin's stomach, the trace metals in her body, the steel doorframe, the trace metal in the coloring of the stained glass, etc... he even rips her earring straight out of her ear during one of his pushes, and I doubt he meant to do that. He doesn't even appear to notice that he's done that.

That sounds in line with Galileo's experiment with the lead balls. But.... while following Marsh towards the Conventical of Seran, Sazed stores most of his weight before jumping off the cliff, and I remember him practically floating downwards.

How knowledgeable are either of you on the Higgs field?

I agree that for experienced Steelpushers, much less Steel savants, they're not consciously and deliberately looking at a bunch of blue lines and thinking, 'yup push on that one, but no not that one.' I think it's a lot more reflexive and sub-conscious. But you still need to push on something to use Steel. You're not just putting Steel vibes out in a general direction where there isn't metal, and if metal wanders into that AOE it gets pushed. I guess you could say that of course there are trace amounts of metal in every direction, and so Wax is just subtly pushing on those and when something gets in the way it starts getting pushed on instead, but I personally like the idea that it's more to do with an interaction between Iron Feruchemy and not just straight Steel Allomancy.

Cool point about the Higgs Field stuff though! I again am not totally sure if that supports or opposes my opinion, but it's cool nonetheless!

2 hours ago, Doomdrinker said:

What if the other guy on the train was a crasher to? We know the Set makes extensive use of heamalurgy.

It's certainly possible, but there's no mention of it whatsoever. The guy doesn't do anything Iron Feruchem-y at all, and if he did presumably Wax would be able to pick it out. He is generally just a big dude though, so maybe he didn't need to increase his already considerable bulk at most times. I do feel like if he could use Iron Feruchemy, he would've when Wax tied the little grappling hook thing to his ankle and to a passing tree. He could've just tapped Iron to not be whipped off the train, but he didn't so I'm inclined to think he couldn't.

[Doomdrinker]

19 minutes ago, Strifelover said:

It's certainly possible, but there's no mention of it whatsoever. The guy doesn't do anything Iron Feruchem-y at all, and if he did presumably Wax would be able to pick it out. He is generally just a big dude though, so maybe he didn't need to increase his already considerable bulk at most times. I do feel like if he could use Iron Feruchemy, he would've when Wax tied the little grappling hook thing to his ankle and to a passing tree. He could've just tapped Iron to not be whipped off the train, but he didn't so I'm inclined to think he couldn't.

He I'm not sure if I believe he was another crasher but I realized that it would certainly be possible. It is mentioned that the bandits ripped a steel door right of it's hinges which seems a bit of a stretch that a regular coinshot could accomplish that.

“Couldn’t stop them. They threw bottles through the windows.… And then the doors ripped off. Steel doors, Pushed into the room, twisted off their hinges like they were paper…”

[marles]

13 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

That sounds in line with Galileo's experiment with the lead balls. But.... while following Marsh towards the Conventical of Seran, Sazed stores most of his weight before jumping off the cliff, and I remember him practically floating downwards.

Yes but I assumed this was because Sazed was storing most of his weight and air resistance played a larger role in his fall than it normally would.

 

13 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Recall TLR vs Vin. Rashek casually raises his hand in her direction and pushes quite a few things: the metal in Vin's stomach and body, the steel doorframe, and scattered fragments of the stained glass window Vin broke in through.

I am not of the opinion that TLR consciously chose to push on the trace metals present in the coloring that was used to stain the stained glass window, and I'm fairly confident that both of you agree with me.

I'm not even sure TLR really chose to push on Vin either, for that matter. It feels like his intent was to push in a direction, and everything in that direction that could be pushed on was pushed: the solid metals in Vin's stomach, the trace metals in her body, the steel doorframe, the trace metal in the coloring of the stained glass, etc... he even rips her earring straight out of her ear during one of his pushes, and I doubt he meant to do that. He doesn't even appear to notice that he's done that.

Thanks for the in book example, I don't think I've taken notice of this in the two times I've gone through TFE. I do agree with you and don't think that TLR chose to push on the doorframe and stained glass window, it just doesn't add up. If TLR was meaning to push directly on Vin, with his strength, experience, and skill, I believe he would be able to push directly on Vin without also affecting the doorframe and stained glass window. To me that would be evidence of him just pushing out in a specific direction. Now, I don't know why he would do that instead of pushing directly on Vin and nothing else. Maybe only pushing in a direction is easier than focusing on specific metals.

 

40 minutes ago, Strifelover said:

But you still need to push on something to use Steel. You're not just putting Steel vibes out in a general direction where there isn't metal, and if metal wanders into that AOE it gets pushed.

What's to say a coinshot can't put out a "steel vibe" in a general direction though? Most of the main cast that we deal with in Mistborn era 1 and 2 don't know the full extent of each power and are largely misinformed about various aspects, so just because one person might say "you can push on these blue lines" doesn't mean that's all they can do. We find out several times throughout the stories that there is more to most of the allomantic abilities than is commonly thought.

[Strifelover]

1 hour ago, marles said:

What's to say a coinshot can't put out a "steel vibe" in a general direction though? Most of the main cast that we deal with in Mistborn era 1 and 2 don't know the full extent of each power and are largely misinformed about various aspects, so just because one person might say "you can push on these blue lines" doesn't mean that's all they can do. We find out several times throughout the stories that there is more to most of the allomantic abilities than is commonly thought.

Sure, although I feel you can pretty much 'what's to say you can't...' almost anything and it's tough to disprove it. I definitely agree with you that we shouldn't just trust our characters' interpretations of the magic systems, especially on Scadrial where it's been intentionally obscured. But I'm just going to fall back on the simplest explanation being the most likely one. We get an explanation for how Steelpushing works both when Kelsier is teaching Vin, and at the beginning of Era 2 with Wax. In that explanation it's said that you need to be pushing on something. But then Wax seems to contradict that with his Steelbubble. So either, what we know fundamentally about Steel is wrong and/or there's more to it, OR Wax's special ability is related to the fact that he has another magical ability and we know that when people have two abilities they blend and interact together.

Either way is totally possible, so I'm not saying you're wrong. I just think that with what we know now it seems to me more likely his Steelbubble is a resonance of the two abilities, rather than just him being a Steel savant.

[Scion of the Mists]

31 minutes ago, Strifelover said:

In that explanation it's said that you need to be pushing on something.

However, we also know that it's possible to push on individual components of something (e.g. a bullet and its casing).  I don't have the exact quote (although I'm sure someone on here can provide it), but this shows that you can push on multiple things at once via a single blue line.  

34 minutes ago, Strifelover said:

So either, what we know fundamentally about Steel is wrong

Does it actually say that you can't just push in a general direction?  Or does Kelsier only tell Vin to push on a single line.  We've had a bunch of examples from both eras of people pushing on a lot of things at once (TLR example above, Wax blowing up the building), and it would seem unlikely that they're identifying every single bit of metal in a general direction and pushing on them all individually.  

[Strifelover]

49 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

However, we also know that it's possible to push on individual components of something (e.g. a bullet and its casing).  I don't have the exact quote (although I'm sure someone on here can provide it), but this shows that you can push on multiple things at once via a single blue line.  

Does it actually say that you can't just push in a general direction?  Or does Kelsier only tell Vin to push on a single line.  We've had a bunch of examples from both eras of people pushing on a lot of things at once (TLR example above, Wax blowing up the building), and it would seem unlikely that they're identifying every single bit of metal in a general direction and pushing on them all individually.  

The bullet in the prologue of BoM isn't the best example for what you're going for, the exact quote is, "A bullet. Three parts metal. The Tip. The casing. And the knob at the back. The spot the hammer would hit. In that moment, to Waxilliam's eyes, they split into three lines, three parts." I can't find the quote from TFE right now, but it might be better for your argument when Kelsier makes that bar spin by pushing and pulling on opposite sides?

Just to be clear, since I feel like I'm confusing people, when I say push in a general direction I mean push in a direction where there is no metal, not there are a bunch of metal things in that direction and I'll push on them all. I agree that, largely subconsciously, a good Coinshot can just push on all the things they perceive in a given direction without having to individually consider each blue line and if they want to push on it or not. What I'm saying is, I don't think that in the absence of any metal in a given direction, a Coinshot good send out a push (or as I half-jokingly called it a steel vibe) in a direction, and then if something should very quickly enter into the line of sight in direction (i.e. a bullet) they'd automatically be pushing on it by having their steel vibing that way.

I kind of argued against myself earlier when I said maybe it's just there's trace metals in every direction so you can always be pushing against them everywhere. I wouldn't personally find that to be the most interesting explanation, and I obviously like the resonance idea better, but it seems reasonable.

[The One Who Connects]

9 hours ago, marles said:

Yes but I assumed this was because Sazed was storing most of his weight and air resistance played a larger role in his fall than it normally would.

Air resistance... derp. That makes sense.

10 hours ago, Strifelover said:

1) I guess you could say that of course there are trace amounts of metal in every direction, and so Wax is just subtly pushing on those and when something gets in the way it starts getting pushed on instead, but
2) I personally like the idea that it's more to do with an interaction between Iron Feruchemy and not just straight Steel Allomancy.

1) I suppose that'd be a valid way to do it. Although, wouldn't he slightly push himself away from any metal surfaces(walls/floors/etc..) while he's got the bubble on? Nothing he couldn't avoid that the same way he doesn't push away his own gun/bullets(through focus), but it's something to think about.
2) I'm curious if you have any elaboration on how you think it'd be related, if only for discussion value.

9 hours ago, marles said:

Now, I don't know why he would do that instead of pushing directly on Vin and nothing else. Maybe only pushing in a direction is easier than focusing on specific metals.

Personally, I don't think Rashek considered it worth the effort. His priorities aren't where ours would be. Look at how he could care less about the Skaa attacking the nobility, even after two of them impaled him with spears. Or how he calmly walks towards Marsh and/or Vin, after Marsh killed Kar and both of them tried to kill him. He's got bigger and better things to do than care about anything going on in the here and now.

Also, Vin blinds an Inquisitor's steelsight with a flurry of airborne metal shavings. TLR's trick would shove Vin too, without having to single out her steel lines through that mess, rendering the tactic moot. (Considering that he doesn't even look in her direction, it may as well be a comparable situation)
We've discussed around it enough to warrant the scene itself, yes?

Quote

"Marsh!" she cried, jumping and Pushing herself toward him. However, as she flew, the Lord raised his hand absently. Vin felt a powerful . . . something crash into her. It felt like a Steelpush, slamming against the metals inside her stomach, [..] Discarded coins shot away from the Lord Ruler, streaking across the floor. The doors wrenched free from their mountings, shattering and breaking away from the room. Incredibly, even bits of colored glass quivered and slid away from the dais. And Vin was tossed to the side, the metal in her stomach threatening to rip free from her body.

[..half page..]

He flung her like a doll, tossing her towards on of the room's massive support pillars. Vin quested desperately for an anchor, but he had blown all of the metal out of the room. Except . . .
She pulled on one of the Lord Ruler's own bracelets. He immediately whipped his arm upwards, throwing off her Pull, making her spin maladroitly in the air. He slammed her with another of his powerful Pushes, blasting her backwards. Metal in her stomach wrenched, glass quivered, and her mother's earring ripped free of her ear.

[..two pages..]

The Lord Ruler lifted a hand, and Vin suddenly felt an impossible weight press against her. Allomancy, Pushing the metals in her stomach and in her body, threatening to crush her back against the pillar.

---

7 hours ago, Strifelover said:

What I'm saying is, I don't think that in the absence of any metal in a given direction, a Coinshot good send out a push (or as I half-jokingly called it a steel vibe) in a direction, and then if something should very quickly enter into the line of sight in direction (i.e. a bullet) they'd automatically be pushing on it by having their steel vibing that way.

Given that Inquisitor Sight works, I'm fairly certain that you can be burning without pushing, allowing a "vibe" as you call it to be sent out. Considering that Wax can run his bubble without launching his own gun/other metals, he probably has good enough control to automatically start pushing on foreign sources of metal as they enter his range if he wanted to. This would then lead to discussion of 1) mental/magical reaction time, and 2) the "pushing on metal surfaces" thing I brought up earlier.

Granted, this probably wouldn't answer whether it's Skilled Steel or his Resonance at work, but it's worth a shot, right?

[Strifelover]

13 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

2) I'm curious if you have any elaboration on how you think it'd be related, if only for discussion value.

TBH I'm not really confident on any personal theory explaining the actual mechanics. If you subscribe to the idea that Iron Feruchemy is less about changing Wax's mass and more about changing how the planet perceives him as something to attract you can tease something out there. We don't really have a good idea of how resonances actually work, nor how we can reliably predict them. In the cases we do know (Oathbringer spoilers):

Spoiler

Shallan's resonance is confirmed to be her incredible memory, which isn't really a combination of her lightweaving and elsecalling. The Windrunner resonance is their leadership and strength of squires, which I suppose you can make a case that Windrunners draw people to them (gravitation) and unite them (adhesion) but seems a bit poetic. It seems like resonance don't need to be a logical combination of the two abilities, they can just be a separate perk.

13 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Given that Inquisitor Sight works, I'm fairly certain that you can be burning without pushing, allowing a "vibe" as you call it to be sent out.

Yeah that's just how Steel works in general. You start burning it, you get the blue lines even before pushing on anything. What I'm calling a 'vibe' (which was mostly a joking term so please don't take the word too seriously) would be an actual push just not directed towards any metal. If there's no metal whatsoever in a given direction, can a Coinshot still push in that direction and then if something suddenly enters that direction (i.e. a bullet) would that push affect that thing? I just called it a vibe since a push to me implies you're pushing on something, so to differentiate it.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Strifelover

[The One Who Connects]

7 hours ago, Strifelover said:

I just called it a vibe since a push to me implies you're pushing on something, so to differentiate it.

Ah, that's what you meant by it. Well, I understand you now, but I still can't answer your question. I just don't know.

7 hours ago, Strifelover said:

We don't really have a good idea of how resonances actually work, nor how we can reliably predict them.
It seems like resonance don't need to be a logical combination of the two abilities, they can just be a separate perk.

This is the Model that I(and some others) have been operating under:

On 10/2/2017 at 11:54 AM, The One Who Connects said:

(A + B + Investiture Physics = D), where A = Power One, B = Power Two, & D = Resonance.
The issue is that we don't know anything about the Physics variable other than it's very difficult/confusing to explain.

You'll note that it's simplistic enough to not contradict anything, because we don't have enough information to form something complex enough to get contradicted. (Which is both entertaining and highly annoying)