Wayne's Resonance

[Windrunner2319]

After listening to the Shardcast on Resonance I have been looking through examples of different twinborn, Radients, etc. I came across Wayne and it seems like he is REALLY good at his accents and impressions. He even gives advice to a centuries old Kandra. Could this be his Resonance?

[RShara]

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I'm probably too late to this party to get a question in, but just in case... The Resonances for Edgedancers and Bloodmaker/Slider pairings--are they basically the same thing? It's maybe mostly linguistic for Edgedancers and more like Invested method acting for the Wayne types, but if I'm reading things correctly, it seems that they're very closely related.

After all, Progression and Bloodmaking are quite similar. Abrasion and speed bubbles have a more tenuous link, but they do call bendalloy boys "Sliders," after all (no disrespect to bendalloy girls, but I couldn't pass up the alliteration).

Brandon Sanderson

The connections are more because the magics are all inter-related, and based on fundamental rules, and less because I was trying for any specific connection.

Footnote: Brandon has confirmed that Wayne's acting has nothing to do with his Resonance.
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[Windrunner2319]

I actually read that before you posted it but I didn't catch the footnote. I guess I will have to keep looking for his Resonance. Thanks though.

[RShara]

Those footnotes are sneaky things.

[Yata]

Brandon also said Wayne's Resonance is not something someone could easily catch unlike Wax's one.

The problem is we have no reference frame for Resonances, we can't easily separate the Powers' interactions (using them together to gain a synergy) from the actual Resonances (an actually merging of powers to gain a side effect).

We were also unable to got Miles' one, I feel our understanding of Resonances will grow together with Scadrial's knowledge itself and not before. So we have to wait for Era 3

[Leyrann]

3 hours ago, Yata said:

Brandon also said Wayne's Resonance is not something someone could easily catch unlike Wax's one.

What is Wax' resonance, actually?

[Yata]

8 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

What is Wax' resonance, actually?

His steel bubble.

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Argent

Have we seen the Resonances of either Wax or Wayne?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, Wax is really good at sculpting bullets and things away from him.

Argent

The bubble.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah and things like this. This is playing with the fact that he is-- Let's just say that the abilities make this happen, and I’ll let you theorize on why, but it's just an enhancement to what he can do.

Argent

I might be wrong, but I thought you said it was because he was becoming a steel savant.

Brandon Sanderson

A savant, yeah, definitely, but this is what this is coming from.

Argent

But being a savant has to do with being really good with one power--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

--and Resonances--

Brandon Sanderson

Being a savant has to do with using Investiture a lot, and it's starting to permeate your soul. Like we've ta--

Argent

So he's more a savant with both of--

Brandon Sanderson

He's used them a lot, and they are changing his soul, and so the powers are morphing and changing. Just in slight, little ways. You're not gonna see a whole bunch. But you can imagine these two separate powers are kind of becoming one to him.

Argent

Yeah I can see that. And Wayne?

Brandon Sanderson

So Wayne's is not as obvious. I'll go ahead and RAFO that right now.

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[Leyrann]

8 minutes ago, Yata said:

His steel bubble.

Bit of a vague WoB imo. It kind of sounds like he first says it's the steel bubble, but he then says the bubble comes from savantism.

[Yata]

53 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Bit of a vague WoB imo. It kind of sounds like he first says it's the steel bubble, but he then says the bubble comes from savantism.

It's confusing because Wax is not a Steel Savant but it's instead a Crasher Savant. It's a bit more complex as you could see by this whole discussion

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Brandon Sanderson

Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on Savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision.

Argent

Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around.

Brandon Sanderson

Evgeni,

So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.)

And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore.

So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for soulcasting savants on Roshar.)

Feel free to share this.

Argent

Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance."

The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books.

Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon.
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[Calderis]

58 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Bit of a vague WoB imo. It kind of sounds like he first says it's the steel bubble, but he then says the bubble comes from savantism.

Other of which are ideas that I disagree with by events in the book. 

Wax is the 3rd Crasher I history. If the resonance is his steel bubble, it should be rare enough we never see another one, and yet we do. And Wax seems to expect other coinshots to have one at times.

For Savantism... Eh, it's more likely, but I still don't take anything with Wax as evidence of Savantism, precisely because of Wax being the reason that Brandon has to rework Savants. No drawbacks means no savant in my head... So until Wax get some negative side effects I'll just think of him as skilled. 

And @Yata that really doesn't explain how we ever see another steel bubble in the books, cause it should never happen outside of Wax. 

Edited April 4, 2018 by Calderis

[Yata]

@Calderis Wax of course can't know the "Steel Bubble" is something unique to Crashers so he aspects other to be capable too.

And to be honest, the "Steel Bubble" as "omnidirectional pushes to deflect stuffs" could be really performed by everyone....But Wax's one is almost instinctive, it stops everything moving too fast aganist him. Other will probably able to replicate this stuff but not in automatic way

[marles]

3 hours ago, Yata said:

@Calderis Wax of course can't know the "Steel Bubble" is something unique to Crashers so he aspects other to be capable too.

And to be honest, the "Steel Bubble" as "omnidirectional pushes to deflect stuffs" could be really performed by everyone....But Wax's one is almost instinctive, it stops everything moving too fast aganist him. Other will probably able to replicate this stuff but not in automatic way

I had the same thought as well. I don't remember seeing direct evidence of another coinshot using a bubble in Era 2 (although I could be wrong there) but I do remember one instance (in BoM) where Wax internally comments something along the lines of "that's why you should never drop your bubble." I was also thinking that Wax would be assuming that any coinshot can manage a bubble like his because it only seems to be a result of steel pushing to him. But since it could potentially be a mix of his two abilities and his use of them is so experienced and natural, he does not realize that a normal coinshot could not create a bubble in the same manner that he does.

Wax's bubble is also a bit interesting because his personal metals from guns, flasks, etc are not effected. I would assume other coinshots may be able to create a sort of bubble but maybe not exclude their own metals. So if there are moments where other coinshots seem to have a bubble it would be worth noting whether or not it is mentioned that they have no metals on them, an aluminum gun and ammo, etc at the time when it seems like they have a bubble.

[Calderis]

5 hours ago, marles said:

I had the same thought as well. I don't remember seeing direct evidence of another coinshot using a bubble in Era 2 (although I could be wrong there) but I do remember one instance (in BoM) where Wax internally comments something along the lines of "that's why you should never drop your bubble." I was also thinking that Wax would be assuming that any coinshot can manage a bubble like his because it only seems to be a result of steel pushing to him. But since it could potentially be a mix of his two abilities and his use of them is so experienced and natural, he does not realize that a normal coinshot could not create a bubble in the same manner that he does.

Considering the number of fights he's been in, I find it hard to believe that it's never come up in conversation, or that he'd be completely unaware. 

And we have seen evidence in book. I believe it was in BoM, on the train a coinshot comes into the car with him, and his narrative comments on both feeling the bubble push things away, and seeing things on the wall rattle due to it. If a coinshot were just "pushing outward in all directions" then things would be thrown away from them with the force of a steel push, and in reaction, the coinshot would be pushed in turn. 

[RShara]

What's unique to Wax is that he can exclude the things he wants to from his Push.  His bubble only affects the things he doesn't deliberately exclude.  Other Steel burners can obviously Push things away from them in a "bubble" but I don't think they can exclude specific objects from that Pushing.

Edited April 4, 2018 by RShara

[marles]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Considering the number of fights he's been in, I find it hard to believe that it's never come up in conversation, or that he'd be completely unaware. 

And we have seen evidence in book. I believe it was in BoM, on the train a coinshot comes into the car with him, and his narrative comments on both feeling the bubble push things away, and seeing things on the wall rattle due to it.

You're right, there is a train fight with a coinshot. I don't remember though if there is any mention of the coinshot having any metal on them and if it gets pushed away or not. I couldn't remember many of the details of the fights, that's why I started to wonder if Wax's bubble is similar but with the extra exclusion ability.

6 hours ago, marles said:

Wax's bubble is also a bit interesting because his personal metals from guns, flasks, etc are not effected. I would assume other coinshots may be able to create a sort of bubble but maybe not exclude their own metals. So if there are moments where other coinshots seem to have a bubble it would be worth noting whether or not it is mentioned that they have no metals on them, an aluminum gun and ammo, etc at the time when it seems like they have a bubble.

---------------------------

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If a coinshot were just "pushing outward in all directions" then things would be thrown away from them with the force of a steel push, and in reaction, the coinshot would be pushed in turn.

If I remember correctly it takes a good deal of skill for coinshots/lurchers to vary the strength of their pushes/pulls. The way that the bubbles act that we see don't seem to be full strength pushes because things just seem to move a bit/give resistance instead of just flying away instantly. The outward push must be weak enough so that it may not noticeably physically move the coinshot. Especially since the main goal of the bubble is to deflect bullets just enough to not be shot and even a partial push should move a bullet at least a bit given the weight differences and we know that even the bubble is not full-proof protection.

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, marles said:

If I remember correctly it takes a good deal of skill for coinshots/lurchers to vary the strength of their pushes/pulls. The way that the bubbles act that we see don't seem to be full strength pushes because things just seem to move a bit/give resistance instead of just flying away instantly. The outward push must be weak enough so that it may not noticeably physically move the coinshot. Especially since the main goal of the bubble is to deflect bullets just enough to not be shot and even a partial push should move a bullet at least a bit given the weight differences and we know that even the bubble is not full-proof protection.

Which is my entire point. It would at that point be a bubble like Wax's, and not just pushing in all directions. 

[marles]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Which is my entire point. It would at that point be a bubble like Wax's, and not just pushing in all directions. 

I'm not  saying Wax's bubble is just a weak push in all directions but a weak push in all directions that also excludes any of his own metals. I believe a normal coinshot could, with enough practice and skill, create their own weak push in all directions that could potentially deflect bullets. What I'm not sure about is whether they could additionally exclude their own carried metals from that bubble.

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, marles said:

I'm not  saying Wax's bubble is just a weak push in all directions but a weak push in all directions that also excludes any of his own metals. I believe a normal coinshot could, with enough practice and skill, create their own weak push in all directions that could potentially deflect bullets. What I'm not sure about is whether they could additionally exclude their own carried metals from that bubble.

And I believe that it's just an additional level of skill. Normal coinshot, bubble that pushes anything within range slightly, bubble that excludes certain metals consciously, and top tier as Wax's where he does so subconsciously. 

The resonance idea would require that unnamed coinshot to either be an unknown Crasher who showed absolutely no use of iron Feruchemy... The savant idea has the same issues that Wax as a savant does.

This is all purely my opinion, I just see to many conflicts with both of those ideas. 

[hula]

i just always thought that the exclusion of metals on him (usually his metal button & his guns) were part of his Identity or, rather maybe his cognitive self. Since Kelsier couln't change his clothes with rips/tears, etc because they were who he is... i just attributed the same to Wax's bubble. he has his bubble up so often, and he sees his guns as an extension of him (i think it was even mentioned how his sterrion's were "like an extension" of him), it just doesn't go by the "normal" rules anyone else would have for outside metals

[Calderis]

@hula it's got to be more than that. He intentionally excludes items that Steris is wearing/has at one point. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Calderis

[+robardin]

Well, Wax is the Favored Hand of Harmony - "his Ruin", as he is eventually called to his face. That has to count for something somehow.

Harmony won't directly interfere in human events; however, he still healed and made Spook a Mistborn (though that was immediately after Ascending and while he still wasn't constrained as much by Shardic Intent), and we see that in Era 2 he isn't above giving Wax "a little help" in the form of having wonderful coincidences work out in his favor, like his trunk from the Roughs getting stolen by his uncle's henchmen and stored in exactly the place he has the big duel with Miles and the Vanishers gang at the end of AoL.

So it stands to reason it's possible Wax can do Steel Bubbles because God Said He Could. Sazed was always the playing-with-wording-of-rules type even when mortal, and could probably come up with a way that this is something any Crasher could do, but only if they had a particular kind of hemalurgic spike as an earring, which hey, he got a kandra to give to him after converting him to Pathism.

[marles]

25 minutes ago, robardin said:

So it stands to reason it's possible Wax can do Steel Bubbles because God Said He Could. Sazed was always the playing-with-wording-of-rules type even when mortal, and could probably come up with a way that this is something any Crasher could do, but only if they had a particular kind of hemalurgic spike as an earring, which hey, he got a kandra to give to him after converting him to Pathism.

I thought that the Pathian earrings from hemalurgic spikes had essentially no power left in them because of the amount of time they are not piercing a body or stored in blood? Also, isn't Wax's earring not being worn most of the time? For some reason I'm thinking that he only put the earring in when he wanted to pray and otherwise kept it in a box or something.

[Strifelover]

For what it's worth, here's the quote from BoM as the nameless coinshot walks into the room, "doors rattled around him - he was a coinshot, obviously, pushing out with a bubble like the one Wax used." Wax also describes the doors rattling around him when he engages his own steel bubble.

I feel like Wax might just be wrong, or misinterpreting what he's seeing. To me, steel on its own shouldn't be able to make the bubble even taking savantism into account. The whole point of how steel works is that you have to push on something. You're not just directing a push in a general direction, the lines are directly tied to metallic objects. So I don't get how Wax or anybody could just generally push on nothing in all directions and that would then affect bullets fired at him. If it's just steel, it'd make more sense if it was more of a state of mind, 'I'm ready to push on anything from anywhere,' but then there's no reason why that should actually be pushing on things.

That's why I think that his steel bubble must be a resonance between his two powers. I don't know how it'd exactly work of course, but I'm more willing to accept it's a combination of pushing and gravity (essentially what iron feruchemy is). Then he'd need to be wrong about what that coinshot was doing as well.

[+robardin]

22 hours ago, marles said:

I thought that the Pathian earrings from hemalurgic spikes had essentially no power left in them because of the amount of time they are not piercing a body or stored in blood? Also, isn't Wax's earring not being worn most of the time? For some reason I'm thinking that he only put the earring in when he wanted to pray and otherwise kept it in a box or something.

Yeah, I wasn't being entirely serious about the earring specifically - Wax converts his first one into a bullet for Paalm, and refuses to put in a replacement one for most of BoM, while still being able to Steelbubble.

I'm just saying that there are numerous ways I could see Harmony twiddling Wax to be different, including subtle hemalurgy. For all we know, he once stepped on a steel nail from a floorboard that snapped off a piece in his heel that he's long forgotten about.

[marles]

1 hour ago, Strifelover said:

If it's just steel, it'd make more sense if it was more of a state of mind, 'I'm ready to push on anything from anywhere,' but then there's no reason why that should actually be pushing on things.

It can't really be a readiness to push on anything that comes close to him though because a bullet would be traveling to quickly for him to reactively push away. I think there is even a part that Wax says or thinks something along those lines (maybe about having to put up the "bubble" because he can't push bullets away by reflex).

 

1 hour ago, Strifelover said:

gravity (essentially what iron feruchemy is).

I think iron feruchemy is about changing the user's mass, not how gravity is affecting them at any given moment. If it were gravity, Wax would be able to jump higher while storing or drop to the ground faster while tapping but he specifically mentions that tapping his metal mind does not make him fall any faster (I believe he mentions it to Khriss as well during their conversation in BoM).