Trickonometry Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 With the various spren of KR/budding KRs we've seen a pretty wide range of awareness and intelligence. We have Pattern who seems to have some awareness of what he used to be and is even able to explain the process of transitioning to being a human's spren. However, I was left with the impression that he doesn't remember everything, or he is unwilling to share all he knows. Ivory, Jasnah's spren we only know that he doesn't like to share info very much. It seems like Relinar's spren was talkative, but Relinar's didn't want to listen, and we really don't know about how much the Stormfather will share with Dalinar or how much Ym's spren shared with him. That leaves us with Wyndle and Syl For whatever reason, our Girl of Awesomeness ended up with a spren that seems to have an extensive memory for what life was like in Shadesmar, talking about how Honorspren and Cryptics would come to see his gardens, or would (attempt to) correct Lift about how her powers worked. Now, it could be that other KR spen could have divulged more but they haven't/we haven't seen the dialogues yet, but I get the impression that Wyndle is very wise to the ways of spren. Syl, on the other hand, can recall only small details, and that only in spurts, ie not liking the Cryptics, but not knowing why (very VERY little dialogue occurs after she comes back, so it could be that she has "remembered" more). At first brush I wrote this off as Kaladin simply not having fully committed to the Ideals and living as a KR, but this is where Wyndle throws a wrench into things: Lift is CLEARLY does not think of herself as an Edgedancer (I can hear her saying, "Are you trying to call me a starving Voidbringer???" in as threatening of a voice that she can muster). She certainly ACTS in ways that are in alignment with Edgedancer ideals, what with her care for Gawx, but if that's all that was needed, Syl should have accordingly became as aware as Wyndle when Kaladin was living out the ideals, and that never appeared to be the case. So, I'm looking to start some theory brainstorming as to either what makes Wyndle special or what makes Syl less aware! Thoughts? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Lift is partially in Cognitive Realm. That makes her a potential outlier for whatever theory we might come up with. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIT Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I think what makes Wyndle special is that Lift had the old magic. Pattern has been around for years so it was less him relearning more him waking up after a long sleep. Syl has been around but with Kaladin being as broken as he was it made the bond... Tenuous But Lift had already been to the Nightmother hence her ability to turn food into stormlight. I don't have the quote but when Wyndle was complaining didn't he say something about her being chosen because she knew of spren and could handle them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trickonometry Posted March 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Lift is partially in Cognitive Realm. That makes her a potential outlier for whatever theory we might come up with. How do you mean? Aren't all people partially in the Cognitive realm to an extent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 How do you mean? Aren't all people partially in the Cognitive realm to an extent? Lift can touch Wyndle without his consent. He remarks on this and says that she is partially in the Cognitive Realm. By this, I think he means that her Physical manifestation has become partially Cognitive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trickonometry Posted March 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I think what makes Wyndle special is that Lift had the old magic. Pattern has been around for years so it was less him relearning more him waking up after a long sleep. Syl has been around but with Kaladin being as broken as he was it made the bond... Tenuous But Lift had already been to the Nightmother hence her ability to turn food into stormlight. I don't have the quote but when Wyndle was complaining didn't he say something about her being chosen because she knew of spren and could handle them? I remember Wyndle complaining about why the Nightwatcher had chosen HER of all people and also a cute, "I'll make an Edgedancer of you yet!" comment, but I didn't remember the awareness of spren part. As for the tenuousness of the bond, I'm still a bit confused about that, because at the height of tWoK the bond between Syl and Kaladin seemed stronger than any bond between Shallan and Puzzle (I don't think there are any Shallan/Puzzle ship theories going around...), so I still don't see why Syl has been less aware than other spren have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melancholy Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Didnt wyndle talk about the circle doing something to him so when he came into the physical realm his memories were protected and not damaged. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyzkle Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) Lift's cognitive presence is part of it, but he was also sent long before Syl came and before Pattern managed to gain physical form. He's had a lot more time to adjust to the physical realm. There is also the fact that Wyndle was sent to bond with Lift by a group he refers to as "the circle" who apparently had a bunch of protections in place to help him maintain his memory. It wasn't perfect, but Wyndle says it helped a lot. Edit: ninja'd by melancholy... Edited March 14, 2014 by Kyzkle 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) Wyndle appears to have been 'prepared' somehow for the trip. It's probably reasonable to assume that Syl didn't have that luxury, seeing as what she's doing is in defiance of the Stormfather and/or other honorspren. Spren also seem to be attracted/strengthened by their respective human emotion. It's not clear yet what kind of spren Wyndle is, but presumably the world is a better environment for that emotion than honor in Alethkar. Edited March 14, 2014 by Seloun 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trickonometry Posted March 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Random side note: does anybody else get a vaguely Bruce Wayne/Alfred relationship from Lift and Wyndle? Except instead of a Batcave there is the Awesomeness Kitchen, and instead of wry-yet-loving remarks about being careful, Wyndle says, "And Miss Lift, do remember to eat your vegetables." 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macen Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 There isn't much need to theory craft. 'The Circle' and cultivation or night mother selected Lift. They helped Wyndle come from the cognitive to the physical realm to help the transition. I thought it said that in the chapter but I just reread it and can't find it anywhere. Maybe I read it in the sample loft chapter from the shardhunt? I wouldn't think they would change it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIT Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I remember Wyndle complaining about why the Nightwatcher had chosen HER of all people and also a cute, "I'll make an Edgedancer of you yet!" comment, but I didn't remember the awareness of spren part. As for the tenuousness of the bond, I'm still a bit confused about that, because at the height of tWoK the bond between Syl and Kaladin seemed stronger than any bond between Shallan and Puzzle (I don't think there are any Shallan/Puzzle ship theories going around...), so I still don't see why Syl has been less aware than other spren have been. I don't think the personality bond was tenuous they certainly had chemistry I think it was the Nahel bond. This is the bond that grants the Radiant their powers and conversely the Spren gets sentience. No other bond has been at risk by the conflicts of the radiant than the Kaladin/Syl bond. I think out of necessity Syl force the bond to grant Kaladin the powers he needed to survive, she just hasn't had the time grow as a Spren, it isn't until the end of WoR that she starts being more confident and standing up to her father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerich Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Lift and Shallan have been bonded for much longer than Kaladin. I think that is the biggest difference. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garlick Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I think the reason syl isnt as aware as wyndle is the fact she crossed over against the stormfathers wishes and she lost her memories in the process. The longer she is bonded to Kaladin the more she recovers. With wyndle its it says he was sent to Lift by the circle. To me i think they helped him cross over with his memories intact. Pattern seems to be a little different if i remember right he chose to be bonded but it seems that Shallan pulled him out of the cognitive realm when she took a memory and drew him but i think he mentions he had support from the other spren to learn from the experience. He was dumb as a brick at first but got smarter very fast. Now with the stormfather seems to be coming around maybe syl will start remembering more faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samurai Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) There isn't much need to theory craft. 'The Circle' and cultivation or night mother selected Lift. They helped Wyndle come from the cognitive to the physical realm to help the transition. I thought it said that in the chapter but I just reread it and can't find it anywhere. Maybe I read it in the sample loft chapter from the shardhunt? I wouldn't think they would change it. I'm pretty sure I remember Wyndle talking about his people providing protection and aid to crossover and him still filling as if he lost some stuff along the way. Versus Syl a least is just about a renegade form her people. Edited March 14, 2014 by Samurai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaladamSB Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Also, on page 12 it says that the edgedancers were the most articulite and refined of the orders. Wyndle strikes me as both those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbauks Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Most things are already mentioned. Wyndle had help to retain his memories. Pattern has been bonded for far longer. Syl came even though there was a lot of opposition. What isn't mentioned: Pattern is a scholar. From the way the spren and their society are described, Honourspren don't sound like they would be very scholarly. Imagine asking your average security guard how gravity works vs asking a physics professor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trickonometry Posted March 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Thanks guys for helping clear this up for me! I guess these are details I missed on my first time through, so, I guess I'll just HAVE to do a tWoK and WoR re-read... (-: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exitao Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 I thought that it was intended as a literary irony. Everyone else is struggling to learn, or relearn, this lost knowledge very earnestly and the spren are barely of any help. Yet, here's Wyndle, the most knowledgeable spren - the one spren who could have have provided the knowledge necessary for Radiants to prevent the Everstorm - has the one Radiant who simply refuses to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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