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Unknown Shards


Ishar

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1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

My dislike for this (even though I know there's a good deal of discussion behind it) is that the list has been formed by naming possible Shards and discussing what feels most logical. There's no reasoning why these would be the Shards beyond "they sound like divine attributes", while this WoB implies that there is a pattern to them (though I really want a clearer WoB on that one!). (something along the lines of "Was Adonalsium Shattered in a non-arbitrary pattern?")

 

Admittedly, a lot of it is "they sound like divine attributes", but I would argue that there's a lot more to it than that. It started, for me, by looking at Adonalsium and thinking "What's missing?" Sure, we may not know if, or to what extent, Adonalisum actually resembles a God figure similar to those in our world, but it's a lot better than a shot in the dark.

Another main part of my theorizing is in finding similarities between certain Shards, and taking that a step further than simple opposites.

For example, a while back, I noticed (as the OP did) that Autonomy and Dominion are naturally opposed. I also noticed that Dominion and Devotion are similar in contrast and that all these three have to do with power to some degree. (Keep in mind that these following summaries of Shardic intents are simplified, and I know that they include MUCH more than that, but humor me for a minute)

Autonomy: You give authority only to yourself

Dominion: You take/command power (in the form of authority) from others

Devotion: You give others authority over you willingly

Which of course leaves a hole for "others giving you power in the form of authority". I call this Charisma, but it's sort of blended with Leadership in my mind. With these, I also make sure that they would align with a hypothetical God figure (which I'm basing off of my own view of God, so take that as you will). Charisma, in this case, being the worthiness of God that would draw followers to him, which you don't quite get with the other three in the group.

This pattern is easier to see in the groups that we know most of the Shards of, and you may notice it in the group I labeled "Creation" as well. 

I guess we may be overthinking this, and that Brandon himself may not have even narrowed all of the Shards down to specific intents. But I will be extremely surprised if we haven't managed to guess a few. I also wonder...What makes you say you don't like that we are logical about this? I'm curious to know what you think of it if you care to elaborate.

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@Khyrindor I don't think that's what Devotion does though. We do know from WoB that Love or Compassion would be synonyms.

Also, I do not disagree with being logical about it, but in fact I'm arguing there's not enough logic. You basically started at the top (what are divine attributes and how can we order them together?), while I started at the bottom (with these rules as starting point, which Intents would we get?) and I think the second method is more logical as it needs to be able to predict the known Shards as well, rather than ordering them on what seems likely.

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1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

Also, I do not disagree with being logical about it, but in fact I'm arguing there's not enough logic. You basically started at the top (what are divine attributes and how can we order them together?), while I started at the bottom (with these rules as starting point, which Intents would we get?) and I think the second method is more logical as it needs to be able to predict the known Shards as well, rather than ordering them on what seems likely.

At the end of the process though, it's still a guess based on your opinion. You could hand someone who understands the Cosmere a list of the traits your rules produce, and they would think that those categories apply to very different names/intents. This is going to vary person to person to the point that people are only going to convince themselves. 

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5 hours ago, Leyrann said:

@Khyrindor I don't think that's what Devotion does though. We do know from WoB that Love or Compassion would be synonyms.

Also, I do not disagree with being logical about it, but in fact I'm arguing there's not enough logic. You basically started at the top (what are divine attributes and how can we order them together?), while I started at the bottom (with these rules as starting point, which Intents would we get?) and I think the second method is more logical as it needs to be able to predict the known Shards as well, rather than ordering them on what seems likely.

Your guess is as good as mine, so I suppose the method is something we won't agree on. I will argue about Devotion though :P. When you devote yourself to something or someone, you are (at the very bones of it) allowing it power over you. I did also say that I know it's a gross oversimplification of Shardic intent. Devotion includes things like love and compassion as motives for devotion, just as Autonomy is more complex than "freedom". 

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1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

 

I'd argue that Autonomy is more of a complex version of freedom.

More complex in that it includes more. Individuality and separation are part of Autonomy, but Freedom doesn't quite go that far on its own (IMO). 

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6 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

More complex in that it includes more. Individuality and separation are part of Autonomy, but Freedom doesn't quite go that far on its own (IMO). 

True. But Autonomy kind of means individuality and separation as well as it means freedom. The word contains a lot of different meanings.

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Two quick points: 

1) We can't separate the "I am Unity" line from the frequent call Dalinar hears to unite them, whoever/whatever "them" are. 

2) Grouping the Shards into quartets is not as arbitrary as all that. The Allomatic/Feruchemic metals are grouped by Interior/Exterior and by Pushing/Pulling. We should find analogous groupings for the Shards. For instance, Dominion is probably External Pushing while Endowment is Interior Pulling. We could also probably use better terminology than Push/pull, since that is metal-centric. 

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5 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Grouping the Shards into quartets is not as arbitrary as all that. The Allomatic/Feruchemic metals are grouped by Interior/Exterior and by Pushing/Pulling. We should find analogous groupings for the Shards.

I disagree. This method of grouping would produce opposites, and by WoB, some shards have opposites, some don't.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/247-ancient-17s-qa/#e5518

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Re: Internal/External and Pushing/Pulling

I agree that there is probably something to this, as that WoB does seem to imply that Allomancy followed a similar pattern that was already present. I don't think Shards will always follow an easy pattern, though. When I was doing the thing I described in an above post, I was trying to do it by pushing and pulling and all that, but honestly, it's up for such broad interpretation that we need better terminology, and we have nothing to that effect in canon. 

I can agree that Internal is an intent that would seem more personal to a Shard, in that it would apply to itself. However, even things like Autonomy or Honor (which I would have labelled as Internal) we see quite clearly in canon that they do try to impose that on anyone but themselves. For evidence: Autonomy constantly interfering everywhere, and locking up Taldain. She screams "Freedom" but is imposing it on others in a way that is contradictory to her intent. 

The fact is, we never see Shards apply their intents to themselves. Endowment doesn't give herself gifts. Preservation sacrifices himself to preserve others. Ruin isn't suicidal. So how can we, with this pattern and over half the Shards known, say that exactly one half of them are Internal?

Again, this deserves thought, and there is something to it. But I think so far we're looking at it wrong.

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I agree with whoever it was that said Autonomy isn't Freedom. Freedom implies that you have your own free will, while Autonomy really implies that everything works together, whether or not it is against their will, for the good of the whole, kinda like Ecosystems. Dominion on the other hand enforces 1 will on everyone, whether it is good for them or not.

Edited by Ishar
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Ok, this is the pattern I worked out, with a few guesses. It is laid out the same as the Allomatic or Feruchemic metals. 

I am not satisfied I have them in the right positions, but it is a good start. 

 

Physical Quartet

External Push: Dominion    Secondary Quartet: Authority

Internal Push:  ________   Secondary Quartet: Authority

External Pull:   ________   Secondary Quartet: Desire

Internal Pull:    ________   Secondary Quartet: Desire

 

Spiritual Quartet

External Push: Preservation   Secondary Quartet: Desire

Internal Push:  Honor         Secondary Quartet: Desire

External Pull:   Ruin           Secondary Quartet: Change

Internal Pull:    Odium        Secondary Quartet: Change

 

Temporal Quartet

External Push: Cultivation    Secondary Quartet: Change

Internal Push: Paradox/Transcendence??   Secondary Quartet: Change

External Pull:   ________   Secondary Quartet: Power

Internal Pull:    Ambition     Secondary Quartet: Power

 

Cognitive Quartet

External Push: Endowment  Secondary Quartet: Power

Internal Push:  Ingenuity??   Secondary Quartet: Power

External Pull:   Autonomy   Secondary Quartet: Authority

Internal Pull:   Devotion      Secondary Quartet: Authority

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10 hours ago, John203 said:

I disagree. This method of grouping would produce opposites, and by WoB, some shards have opposites, some don't.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/247-ancient-17s-qa/#e5518

Just like tin (increases senses) and pewter (increases physical strength) are opposites, you mean? :P

Or like how storing memories is the opposite of storing wakefullness? How storing health is the opposite of storing determination?

The opposites are mostly just there in the Allomantic Table, not in the Feruchemical, and even in the Allomantic Table not all are actual opposites. I think that most Shards are opposites in one way, but not in another. Also note that Brandon has never said that there are no Shards other than Preservation and Ruin that are opposites.

And I was gonna write up what I thought the relationship with the Metallic Arts was, but then I looked at the stuff I'd worked out when I last worked on it two months ago and remembered that it was probably best to drop the connection between Shards and metals and only place them on the same underlying system.

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Justice seems to me like Honor + Odium.  Using your anger to punish the guilty.  

A big gap in the shards so far is that all of them are sterile, for the lack of a better word.  Cultivation, and Endowment all pertain to creating something new, out of whole cloth. In theological terms, (since they are all aspects of Adonalsium, i.e. god) None of them account for Ex Nihilo creation.    

Reusing the Allomantic table exactly seems a little lazy.  There's probably some structure that's similar, (16 and everything) but Brandon's more clever than that.  

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2 hours ago, Raykoda said:

A big gap in the shards so far is that all of them are sterile, for the lack of a better word.  Cultivation, and Endowment all pertain to creating something new, out of whole cloth. In theological terms, (since they are all aspects of Adonalsium, i.e. god) None of them account for Ex Nihilo creation.    

Reusing the Allomantic table exactly seems a little lazy.  There's probably some structure that's similar, (16 and everything) but Brandon's more clever than that.  

Creation does not necessarily mean Ex Nihilo creation. Mormons (like Brandon), for instance, don't use ex nihilo creation at all, so I would not take that for a given. Besides, Brandon has said we shouldn't necessarily expect Adonalsium to be like an Abrahamic conception of God at all. 

I have to disagree on the Allomatic/Feruchemic chart. Preservation specifically said 16 was a clue. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

What does WoB mean? I'm confused. But anyway, here's A CRAZY THEORY. Kelsier is literally called: The Survivor of Hathsin. He is the Sovereign as well. HOW DID HE BECOME A FERUCHEMIST??? HE CREATED THE BANDS OF MOURNING! We know there's a survival shard and we know that Trell is a thing. Maybe... Well, you know where this is going.....

 

Batman is the Justice Shard

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25 minutes ago, BitBitio said:

What does WoB mean? I'm confused. But anyway, here's A CRAZY THEORY. Kelsier is literally called: The Survivor of Hathsin. He is the Sovereign as well. HOW DID HE BECOME A FERUCHEMIST??? HE CREATED THE BANDS OF MOURNING! We know there's a survival shard and we know that Trell is a thing. Maybe... Well, you know where this is going.....

 

Batman is the Justice Shard

WOB = word of Brandon... other than that, I might suggest you post a separate theory based on that

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  • 3 months later...
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