lilyjab

[OB] A question regarding timeline for the recreance

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Greetings everyone! I'm new here, and glad to be a member. :lol: I was wondering if it was known (mentioned in the books or in WoB) if the Recreance happened after or before the shattering of the plains. I'm fairly certain it's hinted multiple times that the plains seemed "intentionally shattered", though I'm unsure if this is verified for good.

As to why this felt relevent to the recreance, it's purely my speculation. I just felt it contrived for whole orders of radiants to abandon their oaths as one due to a vague feeling that they may end the world. But in the face of concrete proof in the form of a demonstration, perhaps it's plausible. Molding and fracturing rock seems to be the within the portfolio of the tension and cohesion surges. If the shattering of the plains was a result of surgebinding, it could explain the sudden impetus they had to forswear as one. 

Again I could be wrong on multiple counts. Also I doubt I'm the first to this conclusion. So, if there's any discussion going on elsewhere that answers me, or if anyone has the answers here, I'd be greatly obliged! Thanks! I don't post often and visit kinda rarely, but really I look forward to being a part of the community!  

Edited by lilyjab
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First of all welcome to the Shard.

The Recreance is more likely an event that took place after the Plains shattering. Also because post Recreance there will be almost no magic users around.

About the reasons of the Recreance, it's a bit more than a "vague feeling" they discovered to be sons of invaders and destroyers, they discovered they ancestors destroyed their original homeland with Magic (that they associate with Surgebinding), their god kept talking on how their powers will bring destruction on Roshar, they (probably) shattered the plains and they accidentally lobotomized a whole species. All of this once their power will be no useful anymore (because the Desolations ended and the whole enemy's forces were destroyed.

It was a very motivated decision 

Edited by Yata
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Stormseat, which is the city that was at the center of the Shattered Plains, was the capital of Natanatan, which is a Silver Kingdom. The Silver Kingdoms are associated with the Heraldic Epochs, the time before Aharietiam. Stormseat is also believed to have been destroyed during Aharietiam. So one guess for the time of the shattering is the Last Desolation which was a long time before the Recreance.

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4 hours ago, Yata said:

About the reasons of the Recreance, it's a bit more than a "vague feeling" they discovered to be sons of invaders and destroyers, they discovered they ancestors destroyed their original homeland with Magic (that they associate with Surgebinding), their god kept talking on how their powers will bring destruction on Roshar, they (probably) shattered the plains and they accidentally lobotomized a whole species. All of this once their power will be no useful anymore (because the Desolations ended and the whole enemy's forces were destroyed.

Haha! :lol: The way you condensed it all reminded me of Kaladin's little summary after they discovered the heralds' fates. I found that hilarious!

But yes, this helps put it in perspective. The period leading to the Recreance seemed to have been tumultuous for the Orders, with emotions and tensions flared. I only wish we had been shown a memory or a flashback delving into the thoughts and feeling back then, to help imagine it. I had my hopes up when Pattern mentions "memories in Shadesmar", but tragically, we were left hanging on that. <_< On that note, does somebody know where that has been discussed?

 

3 hours ago, AIAndy said:

Stormseat is also believed to have been destroyed during Aharietiam. So one guess for the time of the shattering is the Last Desolation which was a long time before the Recreance.

Shoot, if that's true, the two events couldn't be directly related. There are still a lot of unanswered questions in the timeline, aren't there? Well, thanks for replying! Although I am curious how the shattering happened. If it were through Surgebinding, then it was applied on a truly devastating scale. Perhaps there was some fabrial or device that amplified the surges.

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@lilyjab well in theory Shalash's flashback could cover that timeframe as She were on Roshar in those years... It's unsure but It's a possibility

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@lilyjab on the contrary, I believe that Stormseat plays a role no matter when it was shattered, as long as the Radiants are aware that it was their own powers that achieved it.

Their God was raving that they would destroy the world, and Stormseat would be evidence of the destructive capabilities he spoke of. Add in the knowledge of a previous world destroyed, and then the lobotomization of the Parsh... 

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3 hours ago, lilyjab said:

Haha! :lol: The way you condensed it all reminded me of Kaladin's little summary after they discovered the heralds' fates. I found that hilarious!

But yes, this helps put it in perspective. The period leading to the Recreance seemed to have been tumultuous for the Orders, with emotions and tensions flared. I only wish we had been shown a memory or a flashback delving into the thoughts and feeling back then, to help imagine it.

Just to reiterate a put an even finer point on what @Yata said, I think it's really important to think about what (most likely happened) with the False Desolation. That's the one where the Fused weren't involved, and Ba-Ado-Mishram was leading the Singers rather than Odium directly. It seems likely that the last Bondsmith (pre-Dalinar) Melishi sealed B-A-M in a stone, which lobotomized of all the connected Singers (basically the entire race minus the little group of Listeners). 

So essentially at that time, the Radiants learn about their past which includes not only that using magic destroyed their previous planet, but also that THEY are the evil invaders not the other way around. Then their god Honor starts claiming they too will do horrible things with their magic, and shortly afterwards they commit mental genocide on an entire race.

So they did terrible things in the past, are predicted to do terrible things again and then immediately do a terrible thing - the Recreance makes a lot of sense in that context.

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9 hours ago, Yata said:

About the reasons of the Recreance, it's a bit more than a "vague feeling" they discovered to be sons of invaders and destroyers, they discovered they ancestors destroyed their original homeland with Magic (that they associate with Surgebinding), their god kept talking on how their powers will bring destruction on Roshar, they (probably) shattered the plains and they accidentally lobotomized a whole species. All of this once their power will be no useful anymore (because the Desolations ended and the whole enemy's forces were destroyed.

They also had to abandon Urithiru just before this. It might not seem like much compared to the ravings of god and the destruction of a species, but 'We no longer have a home to return to' is a very powerful thought, especially if most Knights blamed themselves for the Sibling's retreat, as the gems seem to imply. 

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On 3/29/2018 at 4:55 AM, lilyjab said:

I was wondering if it was known (mentioned in the books or in WoB) if the Recreance happened after or before the shattering of the plains. I'm fairly certain it's hinted multiple times that the plains seemed "intentionally shattered", though I'm unsure if this is verified for good.

Not to my knowledge.
◘ The Parshendi believe that they didn't do it, and the Song of Wars dates at least that far back. Song of Histories dates back as far as the First Desolation.
◙ Navani(and likely other Vorin scholars) believe it to have happened during Aharietiam.
◘ Brandon has only said "great magic unleashed here" with respect to the Plains.
◙ Many of us(myself included) believe the event coincided with the assault on Bo-Ado-Mishram during the False Desolation.

On 3/29/2018 at 4:55 AM, lilyjab said:

I just felt it contrived for whole orders of radiants to abandon their oaths as one due to a vague feeling that they may end the world.

As the others have mentioned, it was a fair bit more than a "vague feeling." In my opinion, the last revelations we got(invading Roshar, destroying Ashyn) were merely the final straws, so to speak.

Spoiler

Sorry for the textwall, but I've explained my reasoning before, and I'm never gonna top this explanation. At least it's in a spoiler tag this time :)

On 2/19/2018 at 9:45 AM, The One Who Connects said:

They had these powers on Ashyn, and they abused them(somehow), and wrecked the planet. Their god told them this, and is also telling them that they will repeat that action on Roshar. They then learned that they "invaded" Roshar in the process of fleeing another planet that was torn apart by a disaster of their own making. They realize that Honor isn't making it up/exaggerating, they really did destroy a planet with their powers. Thanks to the Desolations destroying written record, they probably assume that they had the Spren Bond and the Ideals back on Ashyn too. That would mean that they thought they destroyed a planet while still following the Ideals(Honor certainly seemed to think that would happen to Roshar in spite of the Ideals).

Add to that what happened to the Listeners and the Shattering of the Plains, and they are starting to see proof that they can do great damage while still maintaining their Bonds, still being the "good guys." Then when they consider Jezrien's "we won" declaration, the capture of Bo-Ado, and the incapacitation of the Listeners, they realized that they have no one else to fight but themselves. With the Desolations, there was a period of fighting and a period of rebuilding because the enemy would quite literally be gone after they won. But if they fight amongst themselves, the enemy never leaves, and the fighting would never stop. They start to imagine that a civil war probably led to destroying Ashyn, and realize they may be on the path to another one on Roshar. With the Desolations "finished," there's a lot more peace-time for Radiants to reforge ties to their homelands, and that breeds tensions with other Radiants when their respective homelands go to war.

Imagine if Tukar invaded Emuli back then. Would an Emuli-born Windrunner be Oathbound to "protect" their people? A KR on the battlefield would be just as destructive as Blackthorn Dalinar, if not more, so Tukari casualty numbers might get pretty high. What happens when a Tukari-born Radiant learns that one of his fellows was slaughtering his people? What if a Reshi-born Edgedancer decides to help in the medical tent during an Alethi-Reshi border dispute? On a geopolitical scale, what happens when world leaders see the KR appearing to be "taking sides" in conflicts? The only safe play for the organization as a whole would be to not get involved, but that's gonna strain ties between the people of Emul/Tukar and their native KR.

Individual Radiants are gonna have to decide between their Organization and their Homelands. The KR as a whole are gonna be forced to decide between their Neutrality and their Unity. What about the Squires, who aren't bound by Oaths yet? Individual KR of the same order have always been able to disagree on issues and oaths, and this will only make it worse. Look at Kaladin's dilemma in early Oathbringer, and imagine every Windrunner going though that: "Is it right to defend my people? What if they are the aggressors in this battle? Do I switch back and forth based on who's attacking and who's defending? What about wars in countries that I have no ties to? Lots of countries are at war, and I can't be everywhere at once.. where do I go?" Dustbringers arguing internally and externally over who's authority to be "obedient" to: their nation, their king/queen, the Bondsmith, their order, etc.. Bondsmiths struggling to maintain some semblance of unity as everything(orders, nations, peoples) crumbles around them. The list goes on..

In the face of all this, that "invasion" was merely the missing piece of the puzzle, the little push that set the dominoes in motion. Given enough time, that push could have come from elsewhere. Perhaps the strain broke a few KR's Bonds one day, showcasing a very real threat to them. It might be going slowly, but it was happening. Maybe next time an entire Order goes. How would the KR(or the world) be changed if suddenly, there were no more Windrunners? Would the remaining Orders be able to learn from it, or would the damage have been done?

They had to take action before it got that bad, but what could they do? They were being pulled in a different direction at every turn, to the point that doing anything while being a KR could weaken/break their Bond. This is what I see as the cause of the Recreance. No single event, but the combination of everything was piling up, limiting their options until the only winning move was not to play. Without the Desolations, the KR saw a world that no longer needed the Nahel Bond, so they decided to end it on their own terms, rather than resisting it until they snapped. The in-book revelations seem like weak reasons because they're just pieces, and the truth requires tying these revelations together.

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Put more simply, after the last desolation, there was no more good vs. pure evil because it was all shades of grey. Rather than figure stuff out and try to fix it, they all did a collective Kaladin near the end of Part III and froze. Kaladin let Elhokar and all the men die because he couldn't make a choice and the KR killed their spren because couldn't figure stuff out.

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12 hours ago, Angsos said:

Put more simply, after the last desolation, there was no more good vs. pure evil because it was all shades of grey. Rather than figure stuff out and try to fix it, they all did a collective Kaladin near the end of Part III and froze. Kaladin let Elhokar and all the men die because he couldn't make a choice and the KR killed their spren because couldn't figure stuff out.

It's not so easy, they didn't change (that generation of Radiants weren't worse than the previous). But they rather were showed the possible conseguences of their own existence.

There was nothing to fix explicity, they simply understood the powers they held could (and would) carry Roshar at the same outcome of the enemy they fought.

It's like a magical disarm...just the weapons were living beings.

It's like suppressing all the mages because there is a spell avaliable to them able to destroy the world

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What with the theories regarding the Shattered Plains and the "stone spren" Sibling, plus the Stormfather's words about how humans 'already hurt the Sibling enough', I can't help but wonder if Dalinar is going to restore the stone Spren back to "life" by fixing the Shattered Plains, and proving to himself, his Radiants, and the world in general that Radiant powers can be trusted.

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3 hours ago, Bort said:

What with the theories regarding the Shattered Plains and the "stone spren" Sibling, plus the Stormfather's words about how humans 'already hurt the Sibling enough', I can't help but wonder if Dalinar is going to restore the stone Spren back to "life" by fixing the Shattered Plains, and proving to himself, his Radiants, and the world in general that Radiant powers can be trusted.

Ooooh, that sounds really interesting! That'd be an amazing scene part of the climactic showdown in book 5. The only reason I think it might be unlikely is the fact I think that the Sibling is the same thing as the spren that powered Urithiru and is also the "stone spren." How would shattering Stormseat affect the Sibling enough for it to have to go into hiding?

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15 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Ooooh, that sounds really interesting! That'd be an amazing scene part of the climactic showdown in book 5. The only reason I think it might be unlikely is the fact I think that the Sibling is the same thing as the spren that powered Urithiru and is also the "stone spren." How would shattering Stormseat affect the Sibling enough for it to have to go into hiding?

Because, if the Sibling is the Spren of the earth/land/stone, I can imagine the shattering of Stormseat and Natanatan would be pretty damnation painful.

Either this, or Aimia.

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54 minutes ago, Bort said:

Because, if the Sibling is the Spren of the earth/land/stone, I can imagine the shattering of Stormseat and Natanatan would be pretty damnation painful.

Either this, or Aimia.

Well, the Scouring of Aimia was far more recent than the False Desolation, so I doubt that was the initial cause of the Sibling retreating. It probably had an impact on the spren, if it is the spren of stone, but it was too late for it to be the cause. I really want to know when the shattering of Stormseat happened. That would answer so many theories.

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One thing I rarely see being mentioned is that when they abandon their Oaths they are intentionally killing Sprens ... that sounds pretty awful for one doing this because of "past deeds". In my view, if you feel bad because you were an invader/destroyer-of-worlds/enslaver ... you would be better served killing yourself than killing your spren and living your life as a clean conscience after that.

One also has to consider that the Heralds created the Orders, and they may have done it because of their past, as a way of not having any crazy dude bonding sprens with no moral high ground. That or the Heralds have some damaging back story. Stormfather also glimpses on the fact that Honor was weakening (maybe due to breaking the Oathpact) and the later generations of KR were affected by that.

Also, what about the Skybreakers not abandoning their Oaths? That doesn't fit the narrative of feeling guilty, but their intention to murder any possible surgebinder fits in my theory below.

My theory is that they wanted to kill the sprens ... as they may have believed that it was the only way to avoid new bonds, to avoid the True Desolation that would destroy the whole world.

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Wow .... I haven't read The One Who Connects Hidden content before posting ... that sounds solid. And it even provide foundation to explain why the Skybreakers would be able to keep their bonds, since they are able to choose the law they abide to, and that it's okay the in-order fighting, as Szeth seems to fear that he and Nale will be in opposite sides in the conflicts to come.

On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 1:32 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Not to my knowledge.
◘ The Parshendi believe that they didn't do it, and the Song of Wars dates at least that far back. Song of Histories dates back as far as the First Desolation.
◙ Navani(and likely other Vorin scholars) believe it to have happened during Aharietiam.
◘ Brandon has only said "great magic unleashed here" with respect to the Plains.
◙ Many of us(myself included) believe the event coincided with the assault on Bo-Ado-Mishram during the False Desolation.

As the others have mentioned, it was a fair bit more than a "vague feeling." In my opinion, the last revelations we got(invading Roshar, destroying Ashyn) were merely the final straws, so to speak.

  Hide contents

Sorry for the textwall, but I've explained my reasoning before, and I'm never gonna top this explanation. At least it's in a spoiler tag this time :)

 

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I think Nale and possible Ishar, though I know anything about him, may have made a deal with Odium or just resolved at some later date to pledge allegiance. 

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33 minutes ago, Angsos said:

I think Nale and possible Ishar, though I know anything about him, may have made a deal with Odium or just resolved at some later date to pledge allegiance. 

I think it is very unlikely. He thinks humself to be supreme justice and ultimate law and Odium thinks himself to be god of passions, that would not mix together well.

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I would say Feverstone was first, the Stonewards and Windrunners disbanding. And the Shattering of Stormseat was last.

All the Oathgates in the other nine major cities were locked on the outside except Stormseat. Which means we can safely assume that Stormseat was the place the residents of Urithiru evacuated to. If so then it's likely the remainder of the Radiants and the civilians settled in the warcamps.

Or were the 'warcamps' where they housed the Parsh after their Connection were severed?

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2 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

I would say Feverstone was first, the Stonewards and Windrunners disbanding. And the Shattering of Stormseat was last.

All the Oathgates in the other nine major cities were locked on the outside except Stormseat. Which means we can safely assume that Stormseat was the place the residents of Urithiru evacuated to. If so then it's likely the remainder of the Radiants and the civilians settled in the warcamps.

Or were the 'warcamps' where they housed the Parsh after their Connection were severed?

How do you know it wasn’t locked from putside when they first open in from outside?

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