Ashspren

[OB] If Gavilar was alive, who would be the Bondsmith?

47 posts in this topic

Just now, Ashspren said:

I definitely agree, but even Dalinar seems like a stretch. He was completely different from his brother. As we look through Oathbringer, all of Dalinar’s flashbacks including Gavilar paint them as very different people.

Yes, but their goals, while the means are very very different are the same. 

Dalinar wants to forge things together. It started with the Alethi, and now it's everyone. When a good chunk of the Singers turn against Odium, I'm sure he'll want to incorporate them as well. 

Gavilar wanted to do the same thing. He just wanted to create an external threat to force them all together under his beliefs. It was a twisted version of the same thing that Dalinar wants. 

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4 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

I definitely agree, but even Dalinar seems like a stretch. He was completely different from his brother. As we look through Oathbringer, all of Dalinar’s flashbacks including Gavilar paint them as very different people.

Gavilar and Dalinar are very different people, but they are both powerful, charismatic leaders that inspire respect, awe and that men happily follow. If for no other reason that no-one really wants to be on the other side of them. Elhokar has absolutely none of those qualities.

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1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Yes, but their goals, while the means are very very different are the same. 

Dalinar wants to forge things together. It started with the Alethi, and now it's everyone. When a good chunk of the Singers turn against Odium, I'm sure he'll want to incorporate them as well. 

Gavilar wanted to do the same thing. He just wanted to create an external threat to force them all together under his beliefs. It was a twisted version of the same thing that Dalinar wants. 

Quote

“Journey before destination.”

—First Ideal of the Knights Radiant

I feel that Sanderson has been stressing the fact that the methods to get places and achieve goals are more important than the end result. I don’t know if it’s the same in this case, but we can agree that the methods Gavilar and Dalinar used were very different. Maybe there is a larger end goal, so bringing unity throughout Alethkar is just one part of the plan, and thus part of the “journey” to the end destination.

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6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Gavilar wanted to do the same thing. He just wanted to create an external threat to force them all together under his beliefs. It was a twisted version of the same thing that Dalinar wants. 

Twisted or not, it's a method that does work. Dalinar even notes this fact during one of his flashbacks.

Quote

After two years of fighting, only four of the ten princedoms had accepted Gavilar's rule — and two of those, Kholin and Sadeas, had been easy. The result was a united Alethkar: against House Kholin.

I actually think this is where the change in means started for Gavilar. Both men noted that you can unify people against a common threat, but Gavilar saw the potential in utilizing something else as the aforementioned threat, while Dalinar only sees how it unites others against you. Which is funny, considering that Dalinar risks this more than once in the future(the potential backlash towards refounding the KR, the gemheart proclamation, and the peace treaty).

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22 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

I definitely agree, but even Dalinar seems like a stretch. He was completely different from his brother. As we look through Oathbringer, all of Dalinar’s flashbacks including Gavilar paint them as very different people.

But up until Gavilar's death, the Stormfather wasn't trying to bond with Dalinar. It was only after the assassination, that he started looking elsewhere. That was also a major turning point in Dalinar's character, when he started to turn his life around and live by the ideals from the Way of Kings, considered a cornerstone of the Knights Radiant.

The Stormfather isn't doing back research on Dalinar. He just sees a guy who now occupies a similar role as the previous one he's watching, and this guy totally embodies the ideals of the KR.

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7 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

I feel that Sanderson has been stressing the fact that the methods to get places and achieve goals are more important than the end result. I don’t know if it’s the same in this case, but we can agree that the methods Gavilar and Dalinar used were very different. Maybe there is a larger end goal, so bringing unity throughout Alethkar is just one part of the plan, and thus part of the “journey” to the end destination.

Even the first oath is open to interpretation. I've ranted about this many many times. I made a thread on it prior to Oathbringer. 

The ends justifying the means is a perfectly acceptable interpretation. I doubt it was a common one for Bondsmiths, or any order really, but both Elsecallers and Skybreakers lend themselves well to a machievellian interpretation of the First Oath. I see no reason why Gavilar couldn't have been doing the same. It would just have required some mental gymnastics. 

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Dalinar was only able to recieve tbe visions/bond the stormfather because of what cultivation did, she removed Odiums influence on him.

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Well, if Gavilar had not been assasinated, the Alethi would not have fought the war of vengeance on the shattered plains, and the Parshendi would not have resorted to stormform. We need to make the timelines align more.

 

Seems like Odium’s spren agents have been working on both Gavilar and the Parshendi leadership to set up the war.

 

In the interlude to OB, when Gavilar explains his plans to Eshonai, he sounds like he has been fed information from some source, information tailored to cause him to say exactly the wrong thing and make the Parshendi panic. Maybe that’s just my impression.

 

Eshonai explicitly mentions ‘voices’ leading her people to acquire and make use Szeth.

 

If Gavilar had survived that night, Odium would have needed a new plan to expedite the desolation.

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Dalinar is a very different person from the beginning of WOK to OB. If Gavilar had actually achieved the bond sought after by Stormfather I believe his goals change just as much. He would have been a much different Bondsmith than the one we got but maybe as effective. Also had Gavilar lived King T doesn't visit Nightwatcher and become a knife in the back of all potential alliances.

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8 hours ago, IronBars said:

Dalinar was only able to recieve tbe visions/bond the stormfather because of what cultivation did, she removed Odiums influence on him.

Cultivation didn't remove Odium influence from him as it's shown the Thrill still affect him and the rest showed in OB.
What Cultivation did was simply to removing his memories, what Dalinar did in his new state of mind. Without Evi memories all his focus was on Gavilar's death and his own shame for the murder...He pushed himself to change and became the man who could carries the brother's dream.

His purpose attracted the SF and the rest is story.

Odium wasn't really casted away from Dalinar, the ties can't be easily cutted and you may how they were still present when Nergaul/Odium wanted. Odium simply left Dalinar in peace for a while to destroy him at once when the moment was good

@RShara I am quite sure you mixed the Heralds with the Bondsmith about the Squires thing...They are the only Surgebinders without Squires we know

Edited by Yata
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I confess my problems with Gavilar as a Bondsmith.

Yes, it seems like the SF looks for potential partners with the influence to force people into "unity", but then again - what about this middle-aged potter from the death rattle?

Perhaps he was really mad, but if he was on the list, I can't see him with the same potential as Gavilar or Dalinar.

As a second thought - did Gavilar really unite Alethkar?

Did he build up a kingdom where the majority is loyal to any other goal than their personal advantages?

I don't see this as "bringing people together instead of devide".

What I see is Gavilar killing the opponants who were able to inspire loyality and replacing them with this backstabbing bastards we see in the books .

After OB there is one thought I'm asking myself: How many potential Radiants did Gavilar kill on his way to power?

Edited by hypatia
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@hypatia be choosen by the Spren doesn't mean you will be a great KR. Simply you showed the potential, it's possible Gavilar was enough Bondsmith to attract the SF but not enough ti carries too much the Radiancy.

Of course this is a tragedy for a relevant order like the Bondsmith without too much open spots.

Anyway I feel you put too much relevance to the moral side of the problems, Spren are beings of extremes. It's possible the Stormfather would be perfectly fine with a "Unity at all cost also if my Knight is a jerk as long as he keeps his word". Or maybe the SF would release the Bond when his understanding will grow to the right point

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14 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I don't think Gavilar could have suceeded in saying the first oath. Or maybe he would have said the first oath and then never progressed to the second oath. The Stormfather was likely trying to get anyone to bond with, but Gavilar had all the wrong instincts to his visions.

According to the Stormfather Dalinar was:

"THE FIRST IN MILLENNIA TO BIND ME." Oathbringer, chapter 4 "Oaths".

So, Gavilar must have remained in very initial stages of bonding, not even the First Oath. His inability to heal  when he was mortally wounded confirms this. Szeth was able to heal himself with the stormlight from Gavilar's shardplate, but the king himself didn't glow even a little. Also, it is inaccurate to say that the Stormfather was looking for somebody _to bond_ - he had to show somewhat likely people visions, Honor's last will compelled him to do so, but he also tried hard to avoid being bound, even going so far as attempting to kill a prospective Bondsmith in Dalinar at the end of WoR. Dalinar had to force the issue to establish the bond.

I also strongly suspect that Gavilar was stuck in a rut with the Stormfather for a fairly long time prior to his death - when he sent Dalinar to Rathalas, he also said that he had something of momentous nature to confide in his younger brother, something that he was only prepared to share in person. I strongly suspect that it concerned the visions, but of course things went south afterwards and it never happened.  

Quote

Examples of Gavilar making decisions in the direction of Odium:

  • Bring the Desolation to bring out the Heralds and gain glory. 
  • Give power to the Sons of Honor, who turned wonderfully to Odium's side as soon as he popped out.
  • Urge the Parshendi to become Voidbringers again
  • Try to bond an Unmade

Well, we don't really know if these were truly Gavilar's intentions or if he was cagy, possibly even misleading towards the people he worked with/used and these are just their own interpretations of his goals. For instance, it is difficult to believe that he wanted to "bring the Desolation to bring out the Heralds", when the visions unambiguously told him that the Last Desolation was coming anyway, no matter what anybody did. IMHO, Gavilar wanted to cause a False Desolation by freeing Bo-Ado-Mishram, in order to unify and prepare humanity for the greater catastrophe that Honor's visions foretold.

 

11 hours ago, IronBars said:

Dalinar was only able to recieve tbe visions/bond the stormfather because of what cultivation did, she removed Odiums influence on him.

This is not entirely true. It is strongly hinted that he received his first vision shortly _before_ visiting the Nightwatcher:

"Dalinar came to himself, gasping, in the cabin of a stormwagon. Heart pounding, he spun about, kicking aside empty bottles and lifting his fists. Outside, the riddens of a storm washed the walls with rain.
What in the Almighty’s tenth name had that been? One moment, he’d been lying in his bunk. The next, he had been … Well, he didn’t rightly remember."
Oathbringer, Chapter 114 "The Cost".

As we know from previous volumes, Dalinar was prone to physically enacting his visions and intially could only remember their contents very hazily, if at all. So it seems that the _decision_ to visit the Nightwatcher, to change, was already enough to open him to the Stormfather a little.

BTW, I wonder how Gavilar managed to keep his visions secret - was the "sleep-acting" aspect  just a quirk of Dalinar's?

 

Edited by Isilel
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@Yata

I think you misunderstood - I wasn't questioning the moral side, only if Gavilar had succeded in unifying Alethkar with this methods.

I wouldn't be perfectly fine, more able to accept him clawing his way to the throne, if he had left Alethkar as a stronger nation, but all in all what I see are quarreling Highprinces who not only fight against each other on the Shattered Plains but also left proxies behind in Alethkar to fight there as well.

If the SF was just looking for someone who would reach unity with any means Gavilar hadn't passed the test, not becaue of morality but because he hadn't succeded in the goal.

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34 minutes ago, hypatia said:

If the SF was just looking for someone who would reach unity with any means Gavilar hadn't passed the test, not becaue of morality but because he hadn't succeded in the goal.

He died in the middle of the task, how would you consider the actual Alethkar with Dalinar's efforts (except conquered and occupated by enemies).

His goal was far from be completed.

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19 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

"Collected on Kakatach 1173, 16 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a middle-aged potter who reported seeing strange dreams during highstorms during the previous two years." Sound familiar?

I think the Stormfather was just going through anyone whom he felt was valid, and eventually Dalinar worked. I don't think the Sibling, or his relation to Gavilar, has anything to do with it.

This is pertinent to the discussion at hand, and always struck me as very odd. While everyone is discussing whether Gavilar or Dalinar are worthy of a bond with the Stormfather, keep the above in mind. In between them, we have a Karbranthian potter. Not just a potter, but one who had so little friends / family / power that the Silent Gatherers were able to grab him. They only take those who won't be missed by society. So how does that fit between two very flawed highprince/king types?

The other piece of this is that the Stormfather only sought this bond because he was commanded to by Honor. He did this only reluctantly and with outright hostility towards mankind in general. Even after forming the bond with Dalinar he acts petulant at best. Could it be he was purposely choosing bondsmiths he thought would fail?

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8 hours ago, Yata said:

I am quite sure you mixed the Heralds with the Bondsmith about the Squires thing...They are the only Surgebinders without Squires we know
 

It's possible, but I remember one about Bondsmiths, too.  *shrug*.

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2 hours ago, Stormfather-in-Law said:

This is pertinent to the discussion at hand, and always struck me as very odd. While everyone is discussing whether Gavilar or Dalinar are worthy of a bond with the Stormfather, keep the above in mind. In between them, we have a Karbranthian potter. Not just a potter, but one who had so little friends / family / power that the Silent Gatherers were able to grab him. They only take those who won't be missed by society. So how does that fit between two very flawed highprince/king types?

I think his position has more to do with the question here than that he was taken by the silent gatherers. Taravangian says that they try to take people like you describe, but that sometimes there aren't enough of them. 

2 hours ago, Stormfather-in-Law said:

The other piece of this is that the Stormfather only sought this bond because he was commanded to by Honor. He did this only reluctantly and with outright hostility towards mankind in general. Even after forming the bond with Dalinar he acts petulant at best. Could it be he was purposely choosing bondsmiths he thought would fail?

This is the heart of the matter. I hadn't considered it but you may be correct. Because of the command, and his merger with Tanavast's Shadow, I don't think he can choose people who lack the traits/goals/etc. That make a Bondsmith, but Gavilar seems to have been a less than ideal candidate, and the potter... Yeah. Add in that when Dalinar started receiving the visions he wasn't a perfect candidate either, but he reacted to the visions in a way that shaped him for the better. 

So yes, I'd have to agree that the Stormfather in his broken state, was choosing people he thought wouldn't actually attain a real bond. 

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@Yata

After nearly 30 years I expect partly results at the minimum.

Imo Gavilar hadn't any idea what to do with Alethkar when he became king.

Really - his only idea was to force more war on Roshar, to sacrifice more people who are needed to defend from Odium? On a not-moral note - this is just plain stupid.

When I think of Lorenzo Medici Gavilar seems to me a pity excuse of a ruler.

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8 hours ago, hypatia said:

As a second thought - did Gavilar really unite Alethkar?

Technically, yes.

As mentioned above, he united Alethkar against him during his conquests. But after conquering, he began to realize that that unity only lasts as long as there is a threat to be united against, which is why he gives any thought to the "returning the Desolation" idea in the first place. He mentions as much to Eshonai: "Unite them. I need a threat. Only danger will unite them."

1 hour ago, hypatia said:

Imo Gavilar hadn't any idea what to do with Alethkar when he became king.

Gavilar attempted to get the Highprinces to follow the Codes and be peaceful, and is met with resistance from all of them, Dalinar included. He was starting on the same path Dalinar was on in WoK/WoA, but he didn't get anywhere(similar to Dalinar for a while). Unlike Dalinar though, he saw another option when he was on an expedition to the plains, and got.. sidetracked. He was trying something that might work(the Codes), but saw an opportunity for something that would work(external threat).

I feel like some parallels could be drawn to some of the outer dominance towns in the Final Empire who stayed in the old system after TLR died because it was something that they knew worked. Gavilar united through war, as did the Sunmaker, and probably many other famous figures. He knows that works, so he'll default to that if met with difficulties while trying something new. So.. you're right. Gavilar didn't know what to do. He knew what he wanted to do, but didn't know how to do it. More WoA parallels, this time with Elend.

8 hours ago, Isilel said:

IMHO, Gavilar wanted to cause a False Desolation by freeing Bo-Ado-Mishram, in order to unify and prepare humanity for the greater catastrophe that Honor's visions foretold.

I like this idea.

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A bit off topic, but I'm interested in reading Dalinar's thoughts on his brother implication with the Sons of Honor. For him, Gavilar was like a god, it's gonna be sad :(

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Thank you @The One Who Connects for a connection.

Perhaps I'm too harsh with Gavilar, but this follows the problem with the Codes of War.

My problem is that I don't know about the situation in Alethkar shortly before Gevilar starts to 'unite' the country under his rule.

But what I see are people who were following the Codes - Dalinar tended to kill them in order of Gavilar.

The ones being gifted with loyality, who were fighting for their people, were the ones on the other side.

For me this is another irony - that Gavilar wouldn't have had a problem to enforce the Codes with his opponents.

On a sidenote - what is it with these "peacemakers" the old Highprince is talking about? Were they identical with the Brightlord and son in the first flashback or Tanalan sen.?

What had Dalinar done with them?

Edited by hypatia
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