Ashspren

[OB] If Gavilar was alive, who would be the Bondsmith?

47 posts in this topic

We know that before he died, Gavilar went “mad,” and started having visions. 

Sound familiar?

I think that Gavilar could have potentially been the Bondsmith, bonded to the Stormfather, instead of Dalinar, had he not died.

So, if Gavilar was still alive, where would Dalinar fit into the entire operation? 

We know that there are three Bondsmiths, who bond with the Stormfather (Honor), Nightwatcher (Cultivation), and Sibling (Odium, most likely). I think that Dalinar might have been the Bondsmith for Odium, bonded to the Sibling. That would explain why he felt the Thrill so strongly. 

At some point, maybe after Gavilar’s death, the Stormfather started to focus his attentions on Dalinar, and overpowered the Sibling, causing the Sibling’s “slumber.”

Thoughts?

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Yep, Gavilar was on the Bondsmith path.  My guess is that Dalinar might have become one of his Squires (I know Bondsmiths didn't normally have them, but these are special times), or simply been his strong right arm.

 

Quote

Ted Herman (paraphrased)

Has Dalinar been on the Bondsmith path for a long time? How about Gavilar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes to both.

Brandon said that Gavilar had been on the Bondsmith path for longer than Dalinar has been.

source
Quote

Questioner

The visions Dalinar gets in WoK always struck me as odd - you don't just look at the past, you are able to act within this experience. Now we know that Gavilar was also on the way to being a Bondsmith - was he acting in a different way? Were the visions only basically the same but different in the end depending on the personal reactions? Is this something like a test?

Brandon Sanderson

He did see the same visions. They were the same thing. But... I will say that his reaction to them were very different from Dalinar's reactions to them. Anyway it was difficult for the Stormfather without a bond to determine/to tell the difference between very easily. When Spren are bonded, they gain a lot more ability to understand the world around then, so you'll find out soon more stuff about this in the third book.

source

 

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17 minutes ago, RShara said:

(I know Bondsmiths didn't normally have [squires])

Is this news from OB, or a WoB I've missed?

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1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

Is this news from OB, or a WoB I've missed?

Sorry, I’m new to the Shard- what is a WoB? I’ve seen it used a lot, but I have no idea what it actually stands for...

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7 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

Sorry, I’m new to the Shard- what is a WoB? I’ve seen it used a lot, but I have no idea what it actually stands for...

Word Of Brandon. Essentially the shorthand for any tidbits we get from him from signings, reddit, twitter, etc.... anything that we learn from outside the books/annotations. The "Assortment of Handy Links" in my sig is my shortcut to get places.
There are several examples where we have WoP, which are from Peter. He's a fairly reliable source, but there are some things that Brandon hasn't let him in on yet, so take them with a grain of salt. There's even a few Word of Inkthinker(Ben McSweeney), who is responsible for drawing most of the artwork in Shallan's Journal, among other things.

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18 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Is this news from OB, or a WoB I've missed?

I remember reading it, but now I can't find it again :D

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27 minutes ago, RShara said:

I remember reading it, but now I can't find it again :D

I remember reading that, too... but I looked on the Coppermind, and it didn’t say anything about that. I’ll have to check through and see.

Also, a friend of mine brought up a really good point: Was Gavilar trying to bond with the Stormfather, or maybe the Sibling or the Nightwatcher?

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I think the Stormfather was trying to bond with Gavilar.  That's what he was instructed to do--find someone to send the visions and bond to.

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23 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

Also, a friend of mine brought up a really good point: Was Gavilar trying to bond with the Stormfather, or maybe the Sibling or the Nightwatcher?

It was definitely the Stormfather. 

Quote

Questioner

The visions Dalinar gets in WoK always struck me as odd - you don't just look at the past, you are able to act within this experience. Now we know that Gavilar was also on the way to being a Bondsmith - was he acting in a different way? Were the visions only basically the same but different in the end depending on the personal reactions? Is this something like a test?

Brandon Sanderson

He did see the same visions. They were the same thing. But... I will say that his reaction to them were very different from Dalinar's reactions to them. Anyway it was difficult for the Stormfather without a bond to determine/to tell the difference between very easily. When Spren are bonded, they gain a lot more ability to understand the world around then, so you'll find out soon more stuff about this in the third book.

source

The visions come from the Stormfather and Gavilar received the same ones. His interpretation of them was drastically different, and after bonding with the Stormfather he may have been unable to progress because of the things he was doing... Or things could have just been drastically different. We don't know. 

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29 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It was definitely the Stormfather. 

The visions come from the Stormfather and Gavilar received the same ones. His interpretation of them was drastically different, and after bonding with the Stormfather he may have been unable to progress because of the things he was doing... Or things could have just been drastically different. We don't know. 

What happened to the Stormfather after Gavilar died? Why did he then bond with Dalinar? Was it because they were related, or was it it save him from bonding with the Sibling?...

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7 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

What happened to the Stormfather after Gavilar died? Why did he then bond with Dalinar? Was it because they were related, or was it it save him from bonding with the Sibling?...

"Collected on Kakatach 1173, 16 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a middle-aged potter who reported seeing strange dreams during highstorms during the previous two years." Sound familiar?

I think the Stormfather was just going through anyone whom he felt was valid, and eventually Dalinar worked. I don't think the Sibling, or his relation to Gavilar, has anything to do with it.

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That brings up another important point: what makes Dalinar the one who worked?

And hmmm... another question— in order to form a Nahel bond, both the spren and the potential KR must be “cracked.” What is “cracked” about the Stormfather? 

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17 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

in order to form a Nahel bond, both the spren and the potential KR must be “cracked.”

First I've heard this. When did we learn anything about the Spren being/not being cracked?

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57 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

think the Stormfather was just going through anyone whom he felt was valid, and eventually Dalinar worked. I don't think the Sibling, or his relation to Gavilar, has anything to do with it.

I agree. We know that spren are attracted to people in positions of power, because they have the ability to effect change. I think Gavilar and Dalinar's both being candidates has everything to do with the Alethi political structure and nothing to do with their relationship. 

21 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

And hmmm... another question— in order to form a Nahel bond, both the spren and the potential KR must be “cracked.” What is “cracked” about the Stormfather?

The Spren don't need to be broken. Magic users need to be broken for external investiture to have a pathway into their spiritweb. Spren are investiture. Through and through. They have no need of being broken. 

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2 hours ago, Ashspren said:

I remember reading that, too... but I looked on the Coppermind, and it didn’t say anything about that. I’ll have to check through and see.

It’s referenced in one of the WoR epigraphs from the in-world Words of Radiance. :)

Edited by EddyJ
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I don't think Gavilar could have suceeded in saying the first oath. Or maybe he would have said the first oath and then never progressed to the second oath. The Stormfather was likely trying to get anyone to bond with, but Gavilar had all the wrong instincts to his visions. Where Dalinar went right, Gavilar went left, and when Dalinar went left, Gavilar took the right side. I'm sure someone will claim Gavilar was bringing unity, so would be a good Bondsmith, and they will have good arguments. However, my gut tells me the Stormfather is so closely aligned to Honor I doubt he could progress far bonded to a KR that took nearly all decisions of his own free will without Unmade influence in the direction of Odium.

Examples of Gavilar making decisions in the direction of Odium:

  • Bring the Desolation to bring out the Heralds and gain glory. 
  • Give power to the Sons of Honor, who turned wonderfully to Odium's side as soon as he popped out.
  • Urge the Parshendi to become Voidbringers again
  • Try to bond an Unmade

In contrast Dalinar was influenced by the Unmade most of his life, yet most of his decisions on WoK and WoR were in the direction of Honor:

  • Alliance with Sadeas, ill-adviced, but hopeful and relying on the honor of men to win the war.
  • Considered stepping down as highprince, because he honestly wasn't sure he was the best person to lead any more. Highly honorable.
  • Gave up his Shardblade for a group of slaves. Doesn't get more Honorable than this.

What I think would have happened if Gavilar hadn't died, is simply the good guys would be screwed. Unless Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher anyway, as that is one of the most important events of the decade. If Dalinar had continued on his drunken path the KR would be stuck without a Bondsmith and without the might of Kholinar behind them. And thats the best case scenario, the worst case scenario is Gavilar figured out how to bond Yelig-nar, brought the Desolation early and maybe put all of Alethkar and its armies under Odium. If Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher, best case scenario is Stormfather tried to bond both Gavilar and Dalinar, and Dalinar eventually bonded the SF. 

Of course all of this is my opinion, but I have seen Gavilar as a bad guy since book 1, and every book since just adds more shade on him. Gavilar's death is the best thing that could have happened to Roshar. If he hadn't its possible the fight would have been over before it even began. The only problem in his death was the honorable Parshendi admitting it was them. They should have killed him, let the alethi assume it was any of the million secret societies around, then there would be no reason to begin Vengeance Pact, which then led to Parshendi turning to Odium when faced with genocide.

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2 minutes ago, EddyJ said:

It’s referenced in one of the WoR epigraphs from the in-world Words of Radiance. :)

That depends on your definition of "Members."

Quote

"But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious."

The second statement regarding their Spren would seem to imply they were only talking about Knights.

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Why would the sibling be of odium? Yes, he's the third god there but the KR and Heralds were built to fight Odium.

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15 minutes ago, Angsos said:

Why would the sibling be of odium? Yes, he's the third god there but the KR and Heralds were built to fight Odium.

Most of us are in agreement that the Sibling is not of Odium. But since the Stormfather is of Honor and the Nightwatcher has a similar relationship to Cultivation... the "3rd Godspren, 3rd Shard" idea gets thrown around because it fits the pattern.

We have no solid proof either way beyond what we believe, so the discussion is still valid(and keeps happening). That's it.

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37 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I agree. We know that spren are attracted to people in positions of power, because they have the ability to effect change. I think Gavilar and Dalinar's both being candidates has everything to do with the Alethi political structure and nothing to do with their relationship. 

Then why wouldn’t the Stormfather bond with Elhokar? He’s in the same posistion as Gavilar was...

39 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Spren don't need to be broken. Magic users need to be broken for external investiture to have a pathway into their spiritweb. Spren are investiture. Through and through. They have no need of being broken. 

Thanks for clarifying— that was just something I heard somewhere.

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Because Elhokar wasn't a powerful person.

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3 minutes ago, Angsos said:

Because Elhokar wasn't a powerful person.

True... and a pretty awful king...

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31 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

That depends on your definition of "Members."

The second statement regarding their Spren would seem to imply they were only talking about Knights.

Good eye. I think the statement about how they didn’t seek to increase their numbers at least implies that they had few (or no) squires, but it doesn’t state it outright. 

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1 hour ago, Ashspren said:

Then why wouldn’t the Stormfather bond with Elhokar? He’s in the same posistion as Gavilar was...

Because although he had the position, he possessed none of the required characteristics. 

It is why the Cryptics have been checking him out for a far longer time period than he seems to have been capable of a bond. 

But Bondsmith? Elhokar? Not a chance. 

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22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Because although he had the position, he possessed none of the required characteristics. 

It is why the Cryptics have been checking him out for a far longer time period than he seems to have been capable of a bond. 

But Bondsmith? Elhokar? Not a chance. 

I definitely agree, but even Dalinar seems like a stretch. He was completely different from his brother. As we look through Oathbringer, all of Dalinar’s flashbacks including Gavilar paint them as very different people.

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