arcmourn

Helaran alive or dead

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Okay am I the only one here who thinks this whole Helaran killed by Kaladin is a little too convenient..... Well. It just seems to me that Helaran dying on a battle field only six months after his father ordered his death by assassination a little to coincidental seems to me that whoever it was that died in that battle at Kaladins hands may not perhaps be Helaran and that may perhap turn up in next book right around the time that Shallan figures out that Kaladin was the one who killed the shard barer. More than likely he will show up to help convince her to work more closely with the ghostblood... It's a legit theory I mean the only eviadance that we have that Helaran is dead after all is what his shard blade which he wielded once years ago and the fact the dead guy had red hair... I doubt the ghostbloods would leave a tool like a shard blade to be used by only one person and as for the hair colour the dispute took place on a boarder near the horneater mountain ranges where everyone's hair is red. Also who else would have enough influence to convince her brothers to leave there home and go to uruthiru without an argument or a fight.

I think Helaran is alive and I think he's going to turn into a major pain in the chull... Just saying.

Edited by arcmourn
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Helaran would not have allowed his family to suffer Lin Davar's abuse for so long without at least checking in or sending a letter. He kept in regular contact with them before his death. Wit specifically says Helaran was in Alethkar. Amaram has his Shardblade. The Skybreakers would not regularly swap Blades - it takes an entire week of sickness to bond a Shardblade. That's a huge waste of time. The Shardbearer was Veden. The Skybreakers would oppose the Sons of Honor (since they want to prevent a Desolation and the SOH want to start one). Everything we know is consistent with Helaran being dead.

 

The potential is there for him to be still alive. It's not absolutely 100% confirmed. But I'm 99.9% confident Helaran is dead.

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The purpose for him dying at Kaladin's hand is that it creates obvious drama down the line when Shallan finds out. She instantly hated Amaram for that reason alone well before he was accused of other villainous activities. The dude definitely took a knife to the face unless  he is the masked ghostblood leader now. I forget how to spell the name but it has an M. Mraise? I don't know, but it's a long shot any way you put it. 

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Hmmmmm I think there's a good chance your right about mraiz I thought his little speech about how he found out who she was so quickly was a little to lacking in details not to mention his certainty enough so henwould leave a letter for her in the corridor I reckon he recognised her voice earlier on but couldn't say anything without giving himself away.... Any counter arguments?

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I don't remember Mraiz being masked. I thought it was the girl that was masked. Either way, wouldn't Shallan have recognized his voice if it was Helaran? 

As for him finding out who she really was so quickly, I was surprised it took him that long. Tyn's previously unknown "apprentice" showing up at the same time as Jasnah's ward did, and them knowing that Tyn was traveling with her, should have given her away immediately. 

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Helaran would not have allowed his family to suffer Lin Davar's abuse for so long without at least checking in or sending a letter. He kept in regular contact with them before his death. Wit specifically says Helaran was in Alethkar. Amaram has his Shardblade. The Skybreakers would not regularly swap Blades - it takes an entire week of sickness to bond a Shardblade. That's a huge waste of time. The Shardbearer was Veden. The Skybreakers would oppose the Sons of Honor (since they want to prevent a Desolation and the SOH want to start one). Everything we know is consistent with Helaran being dead.

 

The potential is there for him to be still alive. It's not absolutely 100% confirmed. But I'm 99.9% confident Helaran is dead.

 

No, the week of sickness that dalinar claimed to have was a lie to keep his bonding of a new shardblade a secret.

 

Anyways, something that bothers me is that we don't even know WHY he joined the skybreakers.  Also, I think that the fact that he was trying to kill Amaram and that Amaram has his shardblade is going to weigh more heavily in Shallan's mind than the fact that Kaladin was the one to actually kill him.

 

Maybe we will see his ghost at some point (in shadesmar?) unless being killed with a shardblade is like being hit with balefire in the Wheel of Time series, but I think he is dead.

Edited by 1empyrean
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I'm confused as to how this is even a thing. As far as I can tell, there is zero evidence for Helaran to be alive and a huge amount of circumstantial evidence that he's dead. Shallan's father thinks Helaran's dead, and he has enough information to place where he thinks he died. In order for this hypothesis to work, you have to assume that

 

- Helaran gave up his blade

- It was to another Vedan

- He coincidentally vanished around the time of the Shardbearer's death

- Taravangian is incorrect about Helaran being dead (in his interlude he specifically declares Helaran dead)

 

From a meta perspective it was a pretty good guess even pre-WoR that the Shardbearer was Helaran. And it just doesn't make sense narratively that Helaran isn't the Shardbearer that Kaladin killed. There's clearly a huge blow up over that coming in the next book (it's protected way too well in WoR), and if it turns out that there was some massive conspiracy (a completely unforeshadowed one) that renders it pointless...well, I'd be pretty disappointed.

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I think maybe having 3 major characters in one book "die" only to show up again by the final page has started to numb our sense of reasonable expectation of death. Oh, and don't forget Eshonai's already filled out her application for the Not-Quite-Dead society. That said, I can't see any reason Helaran would still be alive. The only reason we don't have more solid confirmation of his death is that no one at the battlefield had any reason to recognize him at that time; everyone who seems to have since investigated seems to have come to the same conclusion. If nothing else you'd think Mraize would have thought to use any clue on Helaran's survival as part of his sweetening of the pot when tempting Shallan into joining the Ghostbloods.

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I'm confused as to how this is even a thing. As far as I can tell, there is zero evidence for Helaran to be alive and a huge amount of circumstantial evidence that he's dead. Shallan's father thinks Helaran's dead, and he has enough information to place where he thinks he died. In order for this hypothesis to work, you have to assume that

 

- Helaran gave up his blade

- It was to another Vedan

- He coincidentally vanished around the time of the Shardbearer's death

- Taravangian is incorrect about Helaran being dead (in his interlude he specifically declares Helaran dead)

 

From a meta perspective it was a pretty good guess even pre-WoR that the Shardbearer was Helaran. And it just doesn't make sense narratively that Helaran isn't the Shardbearer that Kaladin killed. There's clearly a huge blow up over that coming in the next book (it's protected way too well in WoR), and if it turns out that there was some massive conspiracy (a completely unforeshadowed one) that renders it pointless...well, I'd be pretty disappointed.

 

I don't think that Heralan is alive, but you are attributing things to coincidence by default when they clearly would not be. He is in a shady organization that is all about behind the scenes trickery. The Shardblade and potentially plate that he would have might not have been his to give to begin with. It wouldn't be that massive of a conspiracy considering he is only really relevant to anybody because Shallan is one of our main characters. Also, Taravangian admits to being wrong on things, he is not all knowing.

 

Again, I think he is dead, but not for those reasons. I just think it is supposed to set up hatred for Kaladin/Shallan, and I don't see a ton of value in his character unless he was full blown KR at the time (which Mraize (?) said their house had a lot of involvement with bigger things so idk).

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The shardbearer even gets a full description including the very uncommon Red Hair. That seems very very coincidental if they keep him alive. And Nalan isn't likely to have shown up and saved Helaran. He's 99% dead. The 1% being Kelsier level dead.

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The Shardblade and potentially plate that he would have might not have been his to give to begin with.

He summoned the Shardblade, so he was bound to it. Even if it wasn't "his", he'd have to voluntarily give it up. It's highly unlikely that the Shardbearer was anyone except Heleran, and the Shardbearer's death was absolutely confirmed; his Shardblade manifested and his Shardplate detached.

 

He might have gotten resurrected, but I can't see why.

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Just FYI, Shallan does know that Kaladin gave the death blow to her brother. She was there when Kaladin made his accusation against Amaram in front of god and everyone else, She then asked him in the chasm if he was telling the truth, and he told her yes. Circumstances being what they were, along with her pov parts after that, I do not think she blames Kaladin for what happened, only Amaram who her brother was apparently trying to kill.

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Am I missing something? How is it known that Helaran was part of the Skybreakers? And doesn't joining an order mean you have to be a Knights Radiant _before_ that? So Helaran had a spren/stormlight-abilities that I missed in the book? Please explain.

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Am I missing something? How is it known that Helaran was part of the Skybreakers? And doesn't joining an order mean you have to be a Knights Radiant _before_ that? So Helaran had a spren/stormlight-abilities that I missed in the book? Please explain.

 

Shallans recruiting officer in the Ghostbloods mentioned her family "Why did your father join us? Why did your brother seek out the Skybreakers?" 

 

And when Darkness/Nalan revives Szeth, he offered training as a Skybreaker, However, because Nalan is about as unradiant as you can get, this probably does not necessarily mean a Nahel Bond with a highspren. More likely it means this particular branch of sociopaths call the name of their group Skybreakers. Because the Fallen Herald that leads them was the patron of the actual Skybreakers long long ago.

Just like he kept the title of Herald when he left Tanavast's service.

 

Remember, very few people who you would consider evil call themselves evil. Sort of like how Robespierre called his particular Murder Club The Committee of Public Safety.

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Remember, very few people who you would consider evil call themselves evil. Sort of like how Robespierre called his particular Murder Club The Committee of Public Safety.

 

As long as there isnt someone who is similar to Cordelia Ransom... Mr Pierre was merely trying to ride a tiger.

 

But yeah I agree that Nalan's group has little to do with surgebinders, I doubt he even wants any of his followers to be able to surgebind, not yet anyway I think he will have a change of heart once he sees the everstorm.

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Just FYI, Shallan does know that Kaladin gave the death blow to her brother. She was there when Kaladin made his accusation against Amaram in front of god and everyone else, She then asked him in the chasm if he was telling the truth, and he told her yes. Circumstances being what they were, along with her pov parts after that, I do not think she blames Kaladin for what happened, only Amaram who her brother was apparently trying to kill.

Kaladin doesn't mention that. He says that Amaram murdered his friends and stole from him. He never mentioned the shards. Shallan has no reason to even suspect it.

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As long as there isnt someone who is similar to Cordelia Ransom... Mr Pierre was merely trying to ride a tiger.

 

But yeah I agree that Nalan's group has little to do with surgebinders, I doubt he even wants any of his followers to be able to surgebind, not yet anyway I think he will have a change of heart once he sees the everstorm.

 

He knows about the everstorm. The clash between the everstorm and the highstorm is what was throwing the tops of plateaus into the sky at Szeth and Kaladin when they were fighting. He was there waiting for just the right moment to resurrect Szeth.

 

You know that denial thing Szeth had going on, Nalan either has that in spades if he is thinking that a Desolation is not happening here and now, or is just a straight up liar about his motives. Because I do not see how killing surgebinders continents away from the shattered plains was stopping the everstorm.

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I don't think that Heralan is alive, but you are attributing things to coincidence by default when they clearly would not be. He is in a shady organization that is all about behind the scenes trickery. The Shardblade and potentially plate that he would have might not have been his to give to begin with. It wouldn't be that massive of a conspiracy considering he is only really relevant to anybody because Shallan is one of our main characters. Also, Taravangian admits to being wrong on things, he is not all knowing.

 

Again, I think he is dead, but not for those reasons. I just think it is supposed to set up hatred for Kaladin/Shallan, and I don't see a ton of value in his character unless he was full blown KR at the time (which Mraize (?) said their house had a lot of involvement with bigger things so idk).

 

They're either coincidence or intentional. If intentional, it means it almost has to have been directed at Shallan or her family (somehow) because it's unclear who else it would have mattered to. If the choice of the red hair and confusion potential was intentional, it means whoever send the Shardbearer had to have thought he would have been killed (otherwise why does the hair color matter?). It's either a giant coincidence or it's a particularly convoluted and wide-ranging conspiracy for something that doesn't seem to matter in any way besides one that seems impossible to have predicted.

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They're either coincidence or intentional. If intentional, it means it almost has to have been directed at Shallan or her family (somehow) because it's unclear who else it would have mattered to. If the choice of the red hair and confusion potential was intentional, it means whoever send the Shardbearer had to have thought he would have been killed (otherwise why does the hair color matter?). It's either a giant coincidence or it's a particularly convoluted and wide-ranging conspiracy for something that doesn't seem to matter in any way besides one that seems impossible to have predicted.

 

Kaladin notices the person has red hair. It's not exactly common to have a Veden with red hair but we know a particular family. It's really convincing evidence which is part of the reason I think Helaran is dead. 

But there are other red haired Veden males out there who could have easily been part of the Ghostbloods. Just because we know one Ghostblood - the heir of a noble house - doesn't mean that is the only one who can be dead on a battlefield. Ghostbloods have access to fabrials, shards, basically everything. They could have multiple Shardbearers, but they could also have people pass around assets when they need to. Helaran is not the owner of the blade even if he bonded it. I highly doubt he slayed a Shardbearer - I assume it was given to him. That was my point. Shardblade bonds can be passed. It doesn't matter if the Shardbearer had a bonded blade. 

If Helaran wants to drop off the map, the Ghostbloods have the capabilities without it being some insane process. Nalan probably has access to a fabrial with Illumination for example, so red hair is not crazy. I'm not sure what the value of Helaran might have been, but it is possible. There are so many ways to fake a death, there was almost no detail given or follow up on viewing the body because they didn't care at all, so nobody could have ID'd Helaran but even if they did, so what.

That's my point. None of the options are really all that absurd, but he would have to be really really really important in my opinion if I'm going to be cool with him being alive. I don't buy it either, but it is very easy to see the potential outs.

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Kaladin notices the person has red hair. It's not exactly common to have a Veden with red hair but we know a particular family. It's really convincing evidence which is part of the reason I think Helaran is dead. 

But there are other red haired Veden males out there who could have easily been part of the Ghostbloods. Just because we know one Ghostblood - the heir of a noble house - doesn't mean that is the only one who can be dead on a battlefield. Ghostbloods have access to fabrials, shards, basically everything. They could have multiple Shardbearers, but they could also have people pass around assets when they need to. Helaran is not the owner of the blade even if he bonded it. I highly doubt he slayed a Shardbearer - I assume it was given to him. That was my point. Shardblade bonds can be passed. It doesn't matter if the Shardbearer had a bonded blade. 

If Helaran wants to drop off the map, the Ghostbloods have the capabilities without it being some insane process. Nalan probably has access to a fabrial with Illumination for example, so red hair is not crazy. I'm not sure what the value of Helaran might have been, but it is possible. There are so many ways to fake a death, there was almost no detail given or follow up on viewing the body because they didn't care at all, so nobody could have ID'd Helaran but even if they did, so what.

That's my point. None of the options are really all that absurd, but he would have to be really really really important in my opinion if I'm going to be cool with him being alive. I don't buy it either, but it is very easy to see the potential outs.

My thought wasn't that there was a major conspiracy rather that their shard barer dies trying to kill amiram and they see in the defeat an opitunity to make the best of it they know Shallans father has put a price on his head and see and opitunity to make a bad situation count all they have to do is inform Shallans father of his death and Walla we have secret agent Helaran.... Not very likely but still a possibility and as for the hair colour they where on the border to the horneater mountains where the natural population has undoubtedly mixed the the local indigenous people and have red hair just like Helaran. It's a theory all be it an unlikely one.....

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I think you could be right on him being alive. Now we know he wasn't part of the ghost blood, but the skybreakers.

Nale brought Szeth back from the brink of death. So it's possible. Helaran also NEEDED to loose that shard blade to bond a spren. So he could still be alive and in hiding or training with the skybreakers.

The only thing that gives me doubt is how Kaladin killed him. Through the storming eye.

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4 hours ago, Shalon Smith said:

I think you could be right on him being alive. Now we know he wasn't part of the ghost blood, but the skybreakers.

Nale brought Szeth back from the brink of death. So it's possible. Helaran also NEEDED to loose that shard blade to bond a spren. So he could still be alive and in hiding or training with the skybreakers.

The only thing that gives me doubt is how Kaladin killed him. Through the storming eye.

We've known for a while that Helaran was a Skybreaker.

We know from Renarin's experience that somebody can be bonded to a shardblade and a spren at the same time. Besides, we saw the blade appear next to the body, which means that he was completely dead, past the point of revival. 

A knife through the eye can kill someone. Look at Sadeas. He very dead

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