[OB] Poll - Opinion on Adolin

[GarrethGrey]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

You are most definitely set into destroying every single action Adolin has ever done in order to steer back into the minor role you are determined to believe he is having.

And you're apparently determined to act like he's some major, important character, and he's just not.

I'm sorry, I know you love Adolin, but seriously, you read way too much into every little thing he does (Brandon has said, what we see is what we get with Adolin) and expect way too much in the future. You attempt to use other characters lack of a narrative thus far as fuel for your argument that Adolin will potentially become a major, more fleshed out character in the future, most notably, Jasnah and Renarin. Yes, they both haven't been particularly big parts of the narrative thus far, but we do know that they will be in the future, we know Brandon has a plans for them. With Adolin we only know he is not getting a book, and he's had what, 80k words throughout the entire series so far? I get wanting him to have a bigger role, I just don't see it happening, where does Brandon fit Adolin in? If anything I see him getting less page time the next two books, as Brandon has said he might have to cut down on some secondary character pov's to make room for Eshonai/Venli and Szeth. 

I don't want to make this a big deal, I'm not here to be the bad guy. I'm just trying to inject my own personal take here, I don't see what you and many others are seeing. Adolin is a very bland character, that has been used as a tool time and time again in our other characters narratives. Now if I'm wrong and Brandon has big plans for him, feel free to point me back here when it finally happens and say I told you so. I'm completely fine with that. But I refuse to believe Brandon has more planned for him when all the evidence says otherwise.

But fine, I just don't have the desire to continue this conversation. I'm not going to go through all your points (I certainly could) but honestly it will just end up wasting both our time, I'm not going to change how I see Adolin and neither are you. I truly hope you get everything you hope for with Adolin, and I hope I get everything I want from these books as well. I'm not your enemy, I'm not the bad guy out to get Adolin, I just don't see what you see.

27 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Kaladin helped. Adolin did the majority of the fighting. We see that fight from Kal's perspective, and for the majority of the fight, Kaladin is keeping one of the four busy, while one is tied up with Renarin, and Adolin is still fighting two on one and comes out on top. 

His performance was enough that despite the amazing crem we. See Kaladin do, no one comments on Kaladin's performance.

Yes, without the distraction, Adolin would have lost. This doesn't diminish Adolin's role.

Come on, Adolin in full plate and blade is losing, Kaladin, with no plate, no blade, jumps into the ring with just a spear, and goes toe to toe with a full shardbearer. Sorry, this has always been Kaladins moment, and Kaladins scene once he jumped into the ring. Adolin certainly played a role and his 2 v 1 win was impressive, but it doesn't deny the fact that without Kaladin, he does not win those Shards. Which was the original claim. Kaladin didn't win them either, If anything, it was a joint effort.

27 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And considering that the Sadeas forces possession (not turning, as the ones alive at the end stopped fighting) was a direct result of Adolin's actions, and a key factor in the climax of the book, I'd say that a fairly non-motorized role.

I feel like you're splitting hairs here, we were talking about accomplishments within the narrative. Adolins actions caused Sadeas forces to be possessed and turn on our good guys for a time, thats not exactly an accomplishment, although it did serve a larger narrative purpose (which could have been filled by pretty much anyone, still not sure why it had to be Adolin). And as far as Brandons comments on the matter go, he ends it with an "I think" not particularly definitive, and I'm not really sure how his comments pertain to the topic at hand anyway.

[Calderis]

Adolin is what Brandon has always called him. A Tertiary character. 

He is not ever going to be a main focus, but he is not a minor character either. When Brandon has called Adolin a "Tertiary character" he placed him on the same level as Jasnah and Renarin. 

There are many more minor characters.

I think that both sides of this argument are trying to force Adolin to extremes to either side. Hes fulfilling the roles Brandon has written for him perfectly. He is not more, or less, than that. 

He has an arc, albeit a smaller one than the other characters, and his story touches on all of them. In many ways Brandon has written him as the thread that ties all of the other players together. 

He's a skilled fighter, the Kholin Highprince, Shallan's husband, cousin to the queen... Etc. Etc. 

He is placed at a key point to interact with everyone. The only reason his PoVs are able to so consistently focus outward is that he plays multiple roles depending who he's interacting with. 

Many events as written would not have occurred without him. Yes they could have been written differently to rely on a different character, but they weren't, and that distinction is meaningless. There is absolutely nothing that has happened that Brandon couldn't have changed and ascribed to a different character. 

Adolin as written, has more viewpoints than any character save the main characters, and he is repeatedly at the center of events. He is intentionally not a main character, but calling him minor, in comparison to the multitude of minor characters we have is intentionally understating the character. 

Edit: and on the topic of Adolin, and the morality of killing Sadeas, the WoB posted previously is not the only one, just the most recent. 

Quote

Questioner

What Jasnah did, in the first book, with Shallan in the alleyway and what happened at the end of this book... between Adolin and the other character [Sadeas]. Would you put them on the same level? Or would you say that what Adolin did was maybe a little bit darker?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that what Adolin did was less dark, personally... It just depends on your perspective, but personally I say what Adolin did was something that needed to be done and no one else was capable of doing.

Questioner

Would you say that it's going to have any ramifications for him down the line? With how it was handled?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh it's definitely—how it's handled, definitely there are ramifications, lots of ramifications. And there are certain characters who would think that what he did is totally, totally, totally wrong.

source

I've argued this point before, but in the Alethi "legal system" there were no repercussions coming to Sadeas. There was no one to turn him in to. There was nothing to stop him save the way it happened. It is impossible to reach justice in an unjust system, and the Alethi system is set up so that unless the rest of the Highprinces decided to wage war against house Sadeas, then nothing would be done. Period. 

As that WoB says, what Adolin did was "something that needed to be done that no one else was capable of doing." 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Calderis

[Toaster Retribution]

I am very fond of Adolin, and he is one of my favorite SA-characters. I like the contrast he provides in regards to the other main characters, and I like how good of a guy he is. That said, he could have been written better in OB. The storylines he had were promising, but I felt like they never took him anywhere interesting. His POVs in Shadesmar were interesting, and the Maya-arc shows promise, but I feel like a lot more could have been done with the character. I'd happily put him as the main Edgedancer instead of Lift, who I didn't like much in OB. 

[maxal]

7 hours ago, GarrethGrey said:

And you're apparently determined to act like he's some major, important character, and he's just not.

I think you are purposefully misquoting me and purposefully reading words into my posts which aren't there. I have clearly stated I did not believe Adolin was a protagonist which are the characters getting a focus book, but I have said he is the next best thing after that. The story doesn't break down after Dalinar/Kaladin/Shallan to fall into meaningless minor characters: there are other roles to be filled and Adolin happens to be one of them. The story isn't made up of 10 protagonists and then... nothing. It is too big for this, the scope is too large, hence we have "other characters" who aren't exactly minor, who are getting their own arcs, even if smaller and I, for one, have decided Brandon wouldn't have wasted page time in getting Adolin connect with Maya if he didn't plan to actually write something about it. Call them as you want, but among those characters, Adolin is the most predominant one, he is the one with the most viewpoints.

The reason I used other characters was to highlight how biased the argument saying "Adolin hasn't had a strong enough contribution to the narrative, therefore he will never get one". It means nothing. Plenty of characters have done much less than Adolin in those books and yet Brandon said they would, someday, be very important. Yeah, he never said this about Adolin, but no one asked him this question either. All we know is Adolin isn't getting a focus book. Neither is Moash and yet everyone is going to argue we are going to keep on reading about him. Also, getting a book is not a finality in itself: Eshonai too was getting a book and see where this got her. She will never be a focus character when we all thought she were.

Who's to say Brandon will not expand on Adolin's role in future books? He focused a lot on Shallan/Kaladin/Dalinar. In OB, we saw the intense focus on Kaladin, within the first two books, made it so there was much less to write about the character in OB. It disappointed some readers, but truth is, Kaladin didn't need more page time for his arc to wrap up. I believe Shallan will get a similar treatment in book 4 for the very same reasons. The main interest with Dalinar's character has always been his past, not this is out in the open, is he the right character to get the very large arc? More politics? The way I see it, Brandon may very well decide to write a book where the narrative is more evenly split into more numerous characters. 

Adolin will never get an arc as big as the protagonists, everyone agrees on that, no one argue it should be the case, but I don't see how some readers can jump in, decide they are personally intimate of Brandon's plans, and make the call the character is never getting a stronger, better narrative.

Anyway, this conversation is turning out to be frustrating, so I agree to drop it and move on. I'll allow the others to make up their mind on their own. 

8 hours ago, GarrethGrey said:

I get wanting him to have a bigger role, I just don't see it happening, where does Brandon fit Adolin in? If anything I see him getting less page time the next two books, as Brandon has said he might have to cut down on some secondary character pov's to make room for Eshonai/Venli and Szeth. 

Brandon said he would cut down on the supporting cast, he did not say he would cut down on Adolin. And within OB's supporting cast, there are great many characters which are considerably more minor than Adolin: Jasnah, Renarin, Lift, Szeth, Navani, Bridge 4. So yeah, he'll cut somewhere. It is unlikely he will write another part from Bridge 4's viewpoint in book 4. He'll also probably cut down on the Dalinar/Kaladin/Shallan page time too as he said he would.

Also, he never said the "focus" character was "always" getting the 100K words narrative. Worst, he even said this would not always happened. He said the patter of the first books would not repeat itself for all books. So why take for granted something which hasn't been written out yet? A book we know next to nothing about? Once we start getting WoB and information on book 4, once the plan gets more confirmed, we'll know. Right now however, we just do not know, so I will avoid making speculations out of thin air.

It could be you are right, it could be I am wrong, but right now, we just do not know and I have decided I would believe beta readers when they say they don't feel like Brandon would have written out Adolin if he did not have a plan. Ultimately. 

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I am very fond of Adolin, and he is one of my favorite SA-characters. I like the contrast he provides in regards to the other main characters, and I like how good of a guy he is. That said, he could have been written better in OB. The storylines he had were promising, but I felt like they never took him anywhere interesting. His POVs in Shadesmar were interesting, and the Maya-arc shows promise, but I feel like a lot more could have been done with the character. I'd happily put him as the main Edgedancer instead of Lift, who I didn't like much in OB. 

Yeah, I tend to agree the promises the character left weren't exactly fulfilled. It is why I have been saying, had he have more page time, those arcs might have happened. Oathbringer was a bizarre book because, frankly, none of the characters talked about the real issues nor the real things. It was not just Adolin, but everyone. He is the only non-Radiant Kholin: his character is not reflecting on that, but neither are the others.. No one is asking about why some are made Radiants and not others, no one is questioning the process. We had one entire part on squires, but nothing on Radiant.

Hence, it seems to me, the arcs promised which were to revolve, in part, around Adolin just didn't happen in this book, not for him, but not for anyone either. Brandon just tossed the characters elsewhere and never left them time to actually wonder about things. 

Hopefully, the next book will tackle those issues. If anything OB did flesh out the Dalinar/Adolin relationship. This is where the focus of Adolin's arc was: it was in part in Dalinar's flashbacks, how he grew up to worship his father, how his relationship with Dalinar is born out of expectations he feels he will never meet. We got a lot of Adolin's backstory in those, he was strongly featured into those. Also, this arc barely started to move into the main narrative when the book ended. Will Brandon expand on it? It is hard to say, but it definitely isn't something I feel was closed nor finished.

Huh, I always felt Adolin was a more interesting Edgedancer than Lift because he has to overcome his upper-crust upbringing to move into their ideals which seems like a more interesting progression than having a street urchin care about other street urchins. The step is just bigger for Adolin, the path just takes him away from what he has been so far: I just thought it made up for a more interesting read than silly mouthy Lift, but I guess others have different opinions.

[Guest]

Ah, Adolin. The guy, that everyone wants as his best friend, but falls flat on the nose as an interesting literary character.

When I was freshly out of Way of Kings, my verdict of him was kinda ... indifferent. I didn't care much about him, but acknowledged him as that guy, that always just was there.

After Words of Radiance and he killed Sadeas, I was getting a bit more interested in him, maybe he has flaws. Maybe his actions finally have personal consequences for him, but no. After Oathbringer, I think, we can say, that apparently he can do what he wants without any repercussions. I really don't count the Sadeas soldiers at the end of OB, because I'm talking about personal repercussions and he doesn't even know it was his fault. In fact, even none of his peers do, so he might just never learn of it.

And then I began to read what the fandom says about him... and was hit with adulation extraordinaire. Okay, I thought, maybe you are wrong. So I reread certain passages, that came up again and again, namely the prostitute scene and, that scene, where he plays with that child. Doing this made me realize three things, one, these scenes are shoved into your face, that it is almost disgusting. Two, him being a nice guy is the only thing he has going for him. And three, wasn't he a lighteyes, who in general are portrayed as being quite... not as nice , no one would care about his niceness.

The thing is, niceness doesn't make him interesting. He's not flawless, but what use are these flaws, if he doesn't get any personal repercussions from them?

The Maya arc, if it turns out to become one, might be interesting. I agree. But because of Maya and the implications of it. Not because of Adolin, who apparently initiated the arc now by being... yep, you guessed it. Nice.

Aside from his niceness, he's a walking fantasy stereotype. Prince, attractive and good at fighting.

Of course, his character could be fleshed out more, but this is true about every minor character. Adolin is there to act as an observer, to provide a different perspective. Sometimes as a tool. And that is fine, but don't shoe-horn him into elevated roles, because you wish him to be like that.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Chaos

[Calderis]

What exactly is it about Adolin that makes people feel like their interpretation, be it his importance or his lack thereof, is the only valid one? 

Can we stop with the assumptions that the other side is stupid and just agree to disagree? The only thing this thread is doing at this point is creating animosity. 

[Chaos]

Hello,

Please keep this thread focused on your opinion and sharing your thoughts. Obviously people disagree, and you don't need to engage saying you disagree with other interpretations. Be nice. There is absolutely no need for bitterness and we are all friends here.

I have removed several posts here.

[WhiteLeeopard]

Adolin is one of my favorite characters. I have also stopped participating or reading most threads about him or the love triangle, because even when they start out well and polite they inevitably turn into sheer hatred. It can be either hatred of Adolin, hatred of the situation, hatred of the writing. In general I call threads touching on Adolin that last longer than 3 pages "Adolin-bashing". I wish that everyone on the 17th Shard would either keep the darkness to limited threads or turn more polite. There are nice ways of giving your opinion without spewing poison. It is also quite indicative that both times in this forum in the past few months Chaos had to come in and give a warning to watch the tone it was due to Adolin related posts.

I dislike the negativity on principle. However, I also dislike that it means people like me that want to talk and read opinions of the topic in an amicable manner cannot do so without turning uncomfortable of the atmosphere.

[king of nowhere]

regarding somebody who called adolin a walking clichè (can't find the post, may be one that got deleted), well, there's truth in it, adolin is basically prince charming. However, he's far from a classic fairy tale prince charming.

He's inserted into a fairly gritty world. And while he is prince charming, he is pragmatic enough to survive in this world. He has enough grey in him that he's humanized. unlike those old prince charming, adolin is somebody we could meet down the road.

It has to do with the deconstruction/reconstruction process. the first fantasy heroes were fairy tale guys, bold and true. those guys weren't very believable, so a deconstruction process turned them gradually darker and edgier. those guys also became too dark to be believable, sparking a reconstruction process. adolin is a reconstruction, he incorporates some of the edges while still being a real good guy. Well, I oversimplified the process, but the core is there; it's like a periodic function, your heroes are too pure, so you make them darker, but they graduallly become too dark, so you shift towards pureness again, in a neverending cycle.

As such, the interest for a character depends a lot on where one stands on the curve. If one is moving down from the pureness towards darkness, then adolin is a flat character. If one is moving up away from the darkness, then adolin is a welcome relief from all those characters who seem to come from a prison or mental institute, and they are the ones who look flat.

[BraidedRose]

2 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Adolin is one of my favorite characters. I have also stopped participating or reading most threads about him or the love triangle, because even when they start out well and polite they inevitably turn into sheer hatred. It can be either hatred of Adolin, hatred of the situation, hatred of the writing. In general I call threads touching on Adolin that last longer than 3 pages "Adolin-bashing". I wish that everyone on the 17th Shard would either keep the darkness to limited threads or turn more polite. There are nice ways of giving your opinion without spewing poison. It is also quite indicative that both times in this forum in the past few months Chaos had to come in and give a warning to watch the tone it was due to Adolin related posts.

I dislike the negativity on principle. However, I also dislike that it means people like me that want to talk and read opinions of the topic in an amicable manner cannot do so without turning uncomfortable of the atmosphere.

I really hesitated about jumping into this, seeing how contentious it has been, which, unfortunately is what I expected from any thread relating to Adolin. The last thing I am looking to do is stir the pot again but I do want to offer a perspective from the other side.

Adolin is not my favorite character. Prior to OB I would say I was probably mostly positive to neutral about him but OB didn’t do his character any favors in my view. If Adolin were a person, I’m sure I would like him. As Kaladin says, you almost have to like him. But as a character he leaves some important things to be desired. That may change for me, depending on where his character goes from here and what his overall purpose in the narrative ends up being, but for now my feelings have swung more negative.

The problem I have observed though is often there are reactions to any criticism of Adolin that seem over the top, that exaggerate what is being said or seem to take the criticism of Adolin personally. To the point where I have extreme trepidation about posting this. But from my perspective it’s not just one side that leads to escalation of tensions. If someone offers some criticism or disagreement and then it is overreacted to it seems to easily escalate from there, but often it feels like an overreaction to reasonable criticism is where it starts.

You’ve used some extremely strong words to describe criticism of Adolin. To be honest, a lot of the words you used feel like an exaggeration and are the kinds of things that could lead to an escalation of tensions (sheer hatred, Adolin-bashing, spewing poison). To be clear, I know you weren’t directing that at me and this is the first time I have even posted in this thread, but this just illustrates why I haven’t. But I do want to be able to disagree with an Adolin theory or offer some criticism of his character without being accused of such things (or even just responded to as if I had bashed him).

And honestly, though I may not do this myself, if someone wants to “bash” Adolin, I have a hard time understanding why that is taken so personally. As long as it isn’t turned around on the person holding a different opinion, I don’t see why all opinions on a character shouldn’t be welcome in an open topic.

[Stormlightning]

On 3/19/2018 at 8:14 PM, maxal said:

The problem I see is the word "static". How realistic is it for an individual to remain so static in times of great changes? How realistic is it for an individual to NEVER be affected by any event, to always put himself last, to never feel envy nor jealousy, to constantly step down? And, more importantly, how interesting is it for a character to have literally no flaw?

I suppose that's what makes him interesting. Because he's so static, or the better word might be stable, in spite of everything, it makes me wonder. You're right that it might be unrealistic, but I think you're overdoing how unrealistic it might be. One in dozens or hundreds of characters doesn't seem unrealistic. I wonder how long he can go. I wonder how deep his virtues are, and what will make him really have an identity crisis--has he already had one and overcome it, leading to this solidarity? Or has he just never really thought about it too hard? The latter is something that I see a lot of people around his age do, and when they are finally forced to question everything, it really takes a toll. But I'm not really super surprised that everything that's happened hasn't caused that in Adolin yet. He's been left out of a lot of the things in the story thus far that might have forced that questioning. He hasn't really been asked to do much outside his element. Plus he's really laid back, and it's a confident kind of laid back, so he could probably go quite a while letting others have the limelight. 

We do see his flaws. He's obviously scared of being held to the standard of his father, which might even explain why he's so okay with not being a Radiant. He's straightforward; he doesn't really follow sophistry and can probably be fooled. Heck, he might even be too forgiving and open-minded with regards to Shallan. He shines socially, but maybe that just stands out because of how many of our main protagonists don't. We just haven't seen him challenged, but like I said, he's been left out of a lot, and mainly asked to hit things when he's around. We may not see him seriously challenged, since the last thing I want to see Brandon do is go Jordanian-side-storying with the characters, but I imagine we'll get hints of off-screen development. 

[Calderis]

31 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

The problem I have observed though is often there are reactions to any criticism of Adolin that seem over the top, that exaggerate what is being said or seem to take the criticism of Adolin personally. To the point where I have extreme trepidation about posting this.

And this is a doublegedged sword, in that posting things positive about Adolin are jumped on by things portraying him as some kind of monster. 

It flows in both directions, which is why I asked earlier what it is about Adolin that causes this odd division? 

Both sides are taken to extremes. Adolin is not a pure and wonderful paragon of virtue. Neither is he some cold-blooded, bloodthirsty monster. 

There are moderates on both sides of this issue that refrain from posting because Adolin, for some inexplicable reason, is remarkably contentious. 

[BraidedRose]

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Both sides are taken to extremes. Adolin is not a pure and wonderful paragon of virtue. Neither is he some cold-blooded, bloodthirsty monster. 

I know you are trying to be diplomatic here and to take a balanced position, so I don’t want to respond negatively but this bolded part seems to illustrate my point about exaggeration. No one in this thread has said anything like that. The worst criticism I have seen here is that he is not that important to the narrative or boring or cliche, etc.

Of course, I can’t say that no one has said things like that ever, but what I have seen is people criticizing Adolin for the Sadeas murder. I can’t help but feel these two things are being conflated. It should be possible to discuss the murder, or Adolin’s response to the Thrill without it being taken as writing someone off as a monster. And I have seen people call Dalinar a monster literally without anyone seeming to be personally offended. So I agree with you that there is something about Adolin that seems to bring out overly emotional responses.

[Calderis]

@BraidedRose I haven't seen anyone in this thread call him a paragon of virtue either. I chose my wording intentionally to illustrate the extremes of both sides criticism of the other. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Calderis

[maxal]

43 minutes ago, Stormlightning said:

 I wonder how long he can go. I wonder how deep his virtues are, and what will make him really have an identity crisis--has he already had one and overcome it, leading to this solidarity? Or has he just never really thought about it too hard? The latter is something that I see a lot of people around his age do, and when they are finally forced to question everything, it really takes a toll.

If it does happen, if the questioning does happen, then I will be utterly satisfied. SA will span over decades; Adolin remaining static for the whole time is not very realistic. People always end up asking questions, sometimes it takes more time, but it usually ends up happening. The only interest in a static character, IMHO, is when and how he will unhinged. Hence, if Brandon ends up writing it, then it will be a great moment, perhaps not for all readers, but it quite possibly will be a moment many readers will enjoy reading.

48 minutes ago, Stormlightning said:

We may not see him seriously challenged, since the last thing I want to see Brandon do is go Jordanian-side-storying with the characters, but I imagine we'll get hints of off-screen development. 

But it is too late for this... Side-storying characters, this is exactly what Brandon did with Bridge 4 and Moash and Lift. This is exactly what he does with the interludes: there is a lot of side-storying of side-characters in SA already. I however never considered Adolin was one of those characters: I always read him as important enough to have earned his narrative. Think about how minor Mat was in the first WoT book or Elayne or Min: they all ended up growing into the story and they all earned their own narratives. Would WoT have the same impact had it been about just Rand? Even Nynaeve, arguably one of the best characters in the books, started up rather minor, one step below Rand/Egwene.

Personally I loved WoT, I loved how the story allowed so many characters to have their narrative: it was amazing. Sure, perhaps two or three could have been removed or shortened, some could have been wrapped up better, but in the end I was very satisfied with my journey. This series was truly great. I have nothing but positive comments for it.

[BraidedRose]

@Calderis maybe not that exact phrase in this exact thread. But this is an exact quote from this thread: “Adolin is an absolute GEM. GEM GEM GEM.”

Honestly I could point to others as well but I’m not interested in calling people out for saying glowing things about Adolin. People have every right to do that, and I’m not here to criticize them for it. People should also be allowed to offer disagreement without being called hateful or the like.

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

Honestly I could point to others as well but I’m not interested in calling people out for saying glowing things about Adolin. People have every right to do that, and I’m not here to criticize them for it. People should also be allowed to offer disagreement without being called hateful or the like.

I agree, and my only point is that both sides are guilty of it. I'm trying to do better because I'm aware I've taken part in it. 

I'm not trying to call anyone out here either, I just really want to understand what it is about Adolin of all characters that creates this polarization. 

[BraidedRose]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm not trying to call anyone out here either, I just really want to understand what it is about Adolin of all characters that creates this polarization.

We definitely agree on that. I would like to understand why he is so polarizing as well. I could speculate but it’s time for me to call it a night!

[Chaos]

3 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Adolin is one of my favorite characters. I have also stopped participating or reading most threads about him or the love triangle, because even when they start out well and polite they inevitably turn into sheer hatred. It can be either hatred of Adolin, hatred of the situation, hatred of the writing. In general I call threads touching on Adolin that last longer than 3 pages "Adolin-bashing". I wish that everyone on the 17th Shard would either keep the darkness to limited threads or turn more polite. There are nice ways of giving your opinion without spewing poison. It is also quite indicative that both times in this forum in the past few months Chaos had to come in and give a warning to watch the tone it was due to Adolin related posts.

I dislike the negativity on principle. However, I also dislike that it means people like me that want to talk and read opinions of the topic in an amicable manner cannot do so without turning uncomfortable of the atmosphere.

This statement is too extreme. I would like you to be empathetic to people who dislike characters, namely Adolin, here. There will come a time where you dislike something Brandon did too. There are people who disliked stuff in Oathbringer. That's fine! They get a place here, too. Do remember this, and remember that people who dislike some aspect of a story just want these books to be the best they can be. 

Of course, there has been toxicity, at times. That and hatred (though I do agree this is an exaggeration) will be dealt with, so please feel free to post in these threads. Character threads are things we want to promote a lot of. If you don't see a thread you are interested in, make one yourself!

Certainly there has been conflict, but things are rolling along better. The situation is improving and will continue to improve.

@BraidedRose I think you make some good points there. You should definitely be allowed to post such opinions. I would, however, like everyone to realize that... Well. Imagine something you loved. A character you love in Stormlight, or really anything you feel strongly about. If someone said that that thing you enjoyed and loved sucked, it is natural human tendency to take that thing personally. That doesn't make it right, but it is important to realize that here on 17th Shard, the probability is that people will be intensely passionate about Brandon stuff. That's kind of the name of the game. 

I do find it interesting that Adolin does seem to elicit very extreme responses. It all seems to really come down to him, and feelings on him. I totally agree with you, BraidedRose, criticism should have a place here. If escalation from criticism happens, you let me know--or any mods know, through the report feature. But there are a lot of people who do really like Adolin, and it's important to realize that.

Since November there have been occasions where open mockery of "Adolin fans" has occurred, using it as a slur and a way to silence people. (I believe this is what Calderis trying to allude to, but not so specifically, in that criticism can bend too far the other way. He is indeed not saying anyone here is saying that.) So everyone, do know that if you have an opinion, you can go too far in saying criticism. But at the same time, the reaction against criticism can go too far as well. This goes for absolutely everyone here looking in this thread.

Give criticism with grace, react to it with grace. And I will say this thread has had very graceful criticism, with just a little bit of an exception.  So thank you all. 

(And just as a note, if you disagree with someone, a snarky response probably is not the best way to de-escalate matters.)

9 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

Honestly I could point to others as well but I’m not interested in calling people out for saying glowing things about Adolin. People have every right to do that, and I’m not here to criticize them for it. People should also be allowed to offer disagreement without being called hateful or the like.

Just to be clear, the moderation team is strongly in favor of this statement.  

[Rogueshar]

Personally Adolin is one of my favorite characters in Stormlight, has been since I read the first book two years ago. I liked him because I could relate to him. I love Kaladin, anther favorite character of mine, but I've never gone through depression like he has. I've never gone through whatever screwed up stuff Shallan has gone through. I'm not a wisened parent with lots of responsibility like Dalinar. I'm certainly not a piece of a god like Syl. I'm a young person who tries to see the best in situations and believe the best in people and I saw a lot of that in Adolin. I too haven't had a lot of luck with relationships, and can be hot headed, and I'm fiercely protective of my younger sibling who also does not fit into societal norms. So I guess for me, I saw myself in Adolin. He didn't have the dark tragic pasts like our heroes did, he wasn't having to act wise beyond his years, or dark and broody. He was somebody in this very strange world that I could relate to and not feel lost trying to understand the complexity of his character. I don't mind that we won't get to see his backstory or that he may or may not become a radient, I just want him to remain optomistic and kind and someone that I can relate to. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

9 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

You’ve used some extremely strong words to describe criticism of Adolin. To be honest, a lot of the words you used feel like an exaggeration and are the kinds of things that could lead to an escalation of tensions (sheer hatred, Adolin-bashing, spewing poison). To be clear, I know you weren’t directing that at me and this is the first time I have even posted in this thread, but this just illustrates why I haven’t. But I do want to be able to disagree with an Adolin theory or offer some criticism of his character without being accused of such things (or even just responded to as if I had bashed him).

Yes, I likely was too extreme. But honestly, my words weren't meant only for one side of the conflict here, but for both. When there is trouble, its seldom only one side's fault, but both are to blame. Your post was polite and clear, it was a good example of what in my opinion this topic should be debated as . But I find the ocassional extreme posts are swaying the discussions and atmosphere too much (and I'm not talking about the opinions talked about in those posts, as I don't have a problem with what people think, but rather how it is said or the regularity with which posts derive into personal assaults).

Adolin is a nice character, but will never become a protagonist. Yet I cannot help but feel the reason for the extreme opinions about Adolin in most of the shard come because of the arguments of the other side. Another example is the stick, some people loved the stick, others were indifferent to it. With time and the amount of posts regarding the stick some people loved the stick even more, while some hated it simply because of the regularity with which it was brought up.

Edited March 25, 2018 by WhiteLeeopard

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

while some hated it simply because of the regularity with which it was brought up.

You're not completely wrong.

Aside from what I've already said, that I don't think, he's particularly interesting, because of his flaws being inconsequential so far, the constant gushing praise doesn't help either.

[BraidedRose]

@Chaos and @WhiteLeeopard thanks for the acknowledgement, I appreciate that. 

As for the reason Adolin is so polarizing, I do agree that some of it is backlash. The people who love Adolin (at least some who do) are really passionate about it, and as this poll indicates Adolin is actually enormously popular on 17S so the few who don’t enjoy him as much may get wearied by the number of posts about him. I’d actually be curious how Adolin’s overall popularity compares with the major characters (I wouldn’t be surprised if it is overall more positive after seeing this poll).

As for why Adolin brings out such extreme positive views on the other side, I am sure there is not just one reason. But one possibility is that he is the “normal” guy in the story which may make people relate to him more or connect him more to people they know or could know. Another reason is his viewpoints are not very internal. Some people may like the more action or external focus which is different. But on the other hand a lot of times even when we get viewpoints from him we don’t get a lot of his own thoughts (or his thoughts don’t tell us much about him). We’re not given nothing to go on with him but we’re also not given a lot considering the number of pages he has had. That makes it possible to insert our own assumptions or wishes onto him or make him what we want him to be more or less. Some people will love that and others will be frustrated by it (I often am). What this also leads to is wildly different interpretations of the character and that can lead to polarization as well.

For me though, if I am looking for flaws in Adolin it’s actually my way of trying to like him better. I’m not as interested in reading about “perfect” characters. Case in point, I love me some Shallan, and my girl has issues . So if people object when I talk about possible flaws that could make me more annoyed with the character to be honest. I know I will likely end up enjoying his character more if he goes in a less expected direction.

[Toaster Retribution]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

I just really want to understand what it is about Adolin of all characters that creates this polarization. 

I think there are a couple of things:

*Adolins position in the story. As pointed out by a bunch of people, Adolin is a major character, but also not major character. This is a wierd limbo for a character to be in, and because of that, Adolins significance is very debateable. We can tell how significant Kaladin is. We can tell how significant Lopen is. We can not tell how significant Adolin is, because his role is somewhere in the middle.

*A lot of people love him, for different reasons. There can be a lot of reasons for liking a character, everything from liking his name to finding him complex. But the people who don't love him doesn't get the hype. I understand them, because I have a character I don't get the hype with either (Jasnah). This leads to debate. And Adolin can be seen as a flat character, depending on how much time you invest into reading about him, and analyzing him. For some people, he will be incredibly interesting, and for others, he won't. 

*He is part of the love triangle, one of the most polarizing things in the Cosmere. 

So I'd say it's a combination of his place in the story, as well as the fact that he can be seen as interesting as well as bland depending on how you look at him. And the ones who think he is bland (which is okay) do not get the hype. 

[Yezrien]

Remember the interlude about the Ardent reading the romance novels? Remember how defensive she got about her preferred male lead?  I wonder if there was more to that story than we thought. If Odium knows how much passion we humans have for our fictional characters (and their love lives), he might use that to sow dissent and turn human nations against each other. There's probably an Unmade who lurks around forum threads and whips up flame wars. Like Nergaoul, but nerdier. It's Nerdgaoul!