SKA - Is it Resolved?

[Calderis]

11 minutes ago, SLNC said:

An apparent truth, that isn't a truth is no truth. If the so-called truth isn't true, there is no honesty.

Then there is no truth. Humans speak falsehood in honest belief every day. It is what she currently believes to be true. She is being honest with Adolin. 

When she faces her problems and accepts things, that truth will change. The only person she's currently lying to is herself. 

11 minutes ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

I think it is the best outcome that was readily available. It offers her a place of stability to work through some of her issues. I still see it as a temporary solution to her problems however as she has been anything but honest with herself and entirely dismissive of the feelings of her personas which would impede her happy relationship with Adolin.

I didn't say it was a solution. It's not. She's still avoiding her issues. The solution is not the point of this thread, because the solution involves her stepping away from any romantic relationship whatsoever. 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The only person she's currently lying to is herself. 

And by extent, Adolin, since the objective truth is hidden from him.

Whether or not she is willfully lying to him is irrelevant. The relationship is built on untruth.

At any rate:

Shallan didnt get married because she loves Adolin and wants to commit to a relationship, end of story. She just didnt. Her entire thought process regarding Adolin is thus:
1 - Hes physically attractive. Especially his hair.
2 - Hes sweet, but intellectually inferior
3 - Hes not Kaladin
4 - Hes a good match, socially, and the kind of guy she would have dreamed of growing up (what girl doesnt?)

But those arent he reasons she decided to marry him. She married him because:
1 - He was trying to leave--every time he mentions or insinuates anything remotely similar, she doubles down on the relationship and goes overboard proving to him that he is what she wants
2 - She panicked about Veil and Radiant, deciding that they arent her and therefore what they want is irrelevant, and stuffed them into a box so that they wouldnt mess things up for her
3 - Because shes deluded herself into thinking that Adolin knows who she is, and is therefore the best one for her, because she suffered such a psychological blow as Veil back in Kholinar (her run-to, back up persona) that she couldnt ground herself anymore

Edited July 22, 2018 by SLNC

[Calderis]

8 minutes ago, SLNC said:

And by extent, Adolin, since the objective truth is hidden from him.

Whether or not she is willfully lying to him is irrelevant. The relationship is built on untruth.

As are a multitude of "healthy" relationships. Humans lie to themselves constantly. It's what we're best at as a species. 

If someone speaking what they believe to be true is a lie, then everyone is lying almost all of the time. We believe we know things that we don't. We believe that things are true that aren't. Especially about ourselves. 

She has been more open and honest with him about her issues than she has with anyone. She has shared things as she believes them to be true. 

As I've already said multiple times, unless she is with No one, this is the best that can be hoped for. She is as honest with him as she is capable of being. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

She has been more open and honest with him about her issues than she has with anyone. She has shared things as she believes them to be true. 

About her issues, but not about herself. What you think is more important for a life relationship is your own opinion.

[Calderis]

41 minutes ago, SLNC said:

About her issues, but not about herself. What you think is more important for a life relationship is your own opinion.

That's the entirety of this thread. Opinion. And how is discussing her issues not discussing herself? Her issues currently are just as important as her past. If they weren't so inextricably linked by causation, I would say the present is typically more important than the past. The present is sumething she currently has to deal with and feel vulnerable about. 

In Shallan's case, the past is just a difficult. 

Edited July 22, 2018 by Calderis

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If they weren't so inextricably linked by causation, I would say the present is typically more important than the past.

So, you are telling me, that I am right, because her past is actually the root of her current problems and to actually help her, her past has to be known? You are acknowledging, that the present is inextricably linked to her past by causation, right?

Edited July 22, 2018 by SLNC

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

So, you are telling me, that I am right, because her past is actually the root of her current problems and to actually help her, her past has to be known? You are acknowledging, that the present is inextricably linked to her past by causation, right?

I've asked you in the past not to put words in my mouth. Please keep it in mind. 

I meant what I said. In her case both are equal. Present and past. Her past and her issues are inextricably linked yes, and she's discussed both with absolutely no one. 

She's shared her past with Kaladin and her current issues with Adolin. Neither has both.

 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I've asked you in the past not to put words in my mouth. Please keep it in mind. 

I'm not putting words in your mouth. Here, I'll even quote you.

53 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If they weren't so inextricably linked by causation,

This means, that you are acknowledging that they are. Everything else is my interpretation based on that statement.

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I meant what I said. In her case both are equal. Present and past. Her past and her issues are inextricably linked yes, and she's discussed both with absolutely no one. 

She's shared her past with Kaladin and her current issues with Adolin. Neither has both.

So, if her past and present are equal and Kaladin knows her past, while Adolin knows her present, but neither knows both, neither of them can help her? Or can both of them help her in the same capacity?

Edited July 22, 2018 by SLNC

[Calderis]

8 minutes ago, SLNC said:

So, if her past and present are equal and Kaladin knows her past, while Adolin knows her present, but neither knows both, neither of them can help her? Or can both of them help her in the same capacity?

I will repeat myself yet again. If we were seriously discussing helping her, we wouldn't be discussing relationships at all because she shouldn't be in one. 

If she does have to be in one, from a basis purely off of what she's shared with them of her issues, they are equal. 

All other things being equal, I still say go with the one who she has worked to develop a relationship with and who is supportive of her in all things, over the one who has only been made aware of the way she's dealing with her issues as an ability to "smile anyway" and be jealous. 

And yes, twisting my words to mean what you want them to is in fact putting words in my mouth. If I'm somehow unclear, ask for clarification. Don't tell me what I mean. 

Edit: Honestly, I've said my piece. It's not worth the direction I feel this is turning. I'm out for a while. Hope the discussion stays civil. 

Edited July 22, 2018 by Calderis

[Guest]

It is what I did. I asked you a question. It is you, that replied with an angry accusation of me putting words in your mouth.

Anyway, I'm out. This is going nowhere. But, for the record, I don't agree with you.

Edited July 22, 2018 by SLNC

[wotbibliophile]

@Calderis I agree that people lie to themselves or they are mistaken. They believe things to be true that are not. They say things they believe to be true and are being honest as far as they are aware. In Shallan's case, she has Pattern to remind her that even dressed up as Veil, she is still Shallan. This feels just like when Shallan forces herself to not think about things, to forget or blank out. She is forcing herself to think she does not like Kaladin. We have been led to believe this is not healthy for Shallan and that on some level she is aware she is doing this.

Like when she tells Pattern if she remembered she would be huddled in a ball and useless or when she tells herself she cannot use her shardblade. This is back before she and Pattern remember how they killed her mother. She knows she is deliberately crippling herself even before that whole scene remembering how her mother died. She fears using her shardblade because she remembers she used it to kill even before that remembering scene with Pattern. That is why when she tells Adolin Veil likes Kaladin I still think this is a lie. On some level she knows she is tricking herself in order to function. The Veil/Radiant masks are her latest coping mechanism but they grew from the same place. Forcing herself to think differently. She is aware that she is forcing herself.

I hope I was clear. It is complicated.

16 hours ago, Calderis said:

She's shared her past with Kaladin and her current issues with Adolin. Neither has both.

I am going to disagree with this slightly. Adolin knows about her masks and how lost she feels and not about her past. Yes, I agree. However, Kaladin knows about her past and a tiny bit about her present issues. She tells him her coping mechanism of forgetting is not working as well and that she is getting lost in playing pretend. She does not go into specifics about Veil/Radiant so Kaladin does not know about them. Kaladin's reaction of wishing he could be like her makes her completely shut down and stop talking to him.

If Kaladin had not been so broken by what happened in Kholinar he might have shut up and let Shallan keep talking. I really wonder what his reaction to Veil/Radiant would have been. Maybe in the next book we will find out. I imagine he would act like she is obviously still Shallan. We have a sort of evidence of Kaladin's reaction to her disguise in Kholinar before she enters the palace.

[Calderis]

@wotbibliophile I agree with the first half of your post for the most part. Which is why I've repeatedly said she shouldn't be in a relationship at all. When she's forced to face things yes she's aware that she's lying to herself. The vast majority of the time though, I don't believe she's aware of it. It's willful ignorance. 

For the second half... She did start to broach the topic, without any kind of explanation, and his reaction completely shut that down. Which is one of the reasons I've said in the past that I think that Kaladin is far more likely to exacerbate her issues. He doesn't understand it enough to "have that information" in my opinion. 

Edited July 22, 2018 by Calderis

[Ashspren]

I feel like Shallan needs to love every part of herself— Shallan Shallan, Radiant Shallan, and Veil Shallan— before she can love another person. She’s capable of feeling the emotion, but not of acting upon it. 

(Kind of short, but I can’t add more to it at the moment...)

Edited July 22, 2018 by Ashspren

[wotbibliophile]

@Calderis I actually didn't realize you thought Shallan would be better off without a relationship. Thanks for repeating that. I agree. It would be very nice if Shallan took some time for herself. She deserves it. Adolin deserves it.

We will have to disagree about Kaladin. I do not think with more information he would exacerbate Shallan's issues. I think Adolin currently exacerbates Shallan's issues because he treats Veil and Radiant as real. This does not make sense to me. I notice Shallan, The Great Avoider, approves though.

27 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

I feel like Shallan needs to love every part of herself— Shallan Shallan, Radiant Shallan, and Veil Shallan— before she can love another person. She’s capable of feeling the emotion, but not of acting upon it.

I agree. Because Shallan hates herself, I do not believe she has anything to give. She can take and take from Adolin, but what is Adolin getting back?

Edited July 22, 2018 by wotbibliophile

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

Which is why I've repeatedly said she shouldn't be in a relationship at all. When she's forced to face things yes she's aware that she's lying to herself. The vast majority of the time though, I don't believe she's aware of it. It's willful ignorance. 

She is in a perpetual state of willful ignorance. The question is what the consequences of this ignorance will be. She has rushed into a decision that might come back to bite her by getting married in her current mental state. I'm of the mind that the wedding in OB was intentionally glossed over in the narrative to represent how Shallan has similarly glossed over potential issues in her mind.

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

She did start to broach the topic, without any kind of explanation, and his reaction completely shut that down. Which is one of the reasons I've said in the past that I think that Kaladin is far more likely to exacerbate her issues. He doesn't understand it enough to "have that information" in my opinion. 

Kaladin got to see a dark side of Shallan when she told him about her murdering her own father during the chasm sequence. That dark side of Shallan has been compartmentalised into the Veil persona which is why Kaladin treats Veil as the same individual when Veil suggests a mutiny on the ship in Shadesmar. Since Adolin first met Shallan he has only seen the false mask of the Vorin conformist Shallan, so when he sees her engage the Veil persona he recognises her as a separate individual to the one he knows, whereas Kaladin sees Veil as just another aspect of Shallan's identity which is the case in reality. By recognising the personas as unique individuals Adolin is enabling Shallan's state of willful ignorance. I don't think Shallan is currently stable enough to attempt to integrate her masks but she can only ignore the problem for so long. 

9 hours ago, Ashspren said:

I feel like Shallan needs to love every part of herself— Shallan Shallan, Radiant Shallan, and Veil Shallan— before she can love another person.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say. Shallan needs to integrate her personas before she can be fully committed to any  relationship. A potential hitch in the road for her marriage with Adolin is that Shallan harbours romantic feelings for Kaladin and has displaced these feelings onto Veil. When she integrates her personas she will have to acknowledge that truth.

9 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

I agree. Because Shallan hates herself, I do not believe she has anything to give. She can take and take from Adolin, but what is Adolin getting back?

You could make an argument that Adolin is giving in to societal pressures to get married. He's known as that guy who can't commit to a relationship by many in the Alethi elite. I'm not saying that Adolin doesn't love Shallan. I think he does. I also think that he is being influenced by external pressures to get married and Shallan is a suitable option for him. An issue with his marriage to Shallan is that he has barely even seen the tip of the iceberg when it comes to her problems. He knows the 'Shallan' mask, not the integrated original Shallan.

 

9 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

We will have to disagree about Kaladin. I do not think with more information he would exacerbate Shallan's issues. I think Adolin currently exacerbates Shallan's issues because he treats Veil and Radiant as real. This does not make sense to me. I notice Shallan, The Great Avoider, approves though.

I agree. Adolin enabling Shallan's self delusion is a bad thing that not enough people are acknowledging. 

[BitBitio]

Why is this such a touchy subject? I mean, I'm crazy about Sanderson, but this shipping has gone wayyyyy too far. I'm not taking sides because I'm on my own side, but come on guys, it's a love triangle, and we're letting it ruin our day! 

Look, Brandon wrote what he wrote and we can't change that. Arguing between Shalladin and Shadolin isn't going to change what Brandon writes. So, I'm leaving it like this: Shallan and Adolin are now married. And, well, to you Shalladiners, Brandon might not change it. And Shadoliners, I'm not on your side just because I believe that they will stay together, but, I do believe that Brandon is leaving the triangle as it is. They have more important things to focus on, like the Dawnshards. 

SKA is indeed done. Now it is SA. Stormlight Archive. And the heroes have bigger problems to deal with now.

Don't attack me.

[Vissy]

4 hours ago, BitBitio said:

Why is this such a touchy subject? I mean, I'm crazy about Sanderson, but this shipping has gone wayyyyy too far. I'm not taking sides because I'm on my own side, but come on guys, it's a love triangle, and we're letting it ruin our day! 

Look, Brandon wrote what he wrote and we can't change that. Arguing between Shalladin and Shadolin isn't going to change what Brandon writes. So, I'm leaving it like this: Shallan and Adolin are now married. And, well, to you Shalladiners, Brandon might not change it. And Shadoliners, I'm not on your side just because I believe that they will stay together, but, I do believe that Brandon is leaving the triangle as it is. They have more important things to focus on, like the Dawnshards. 

SKA is indeed done. Now it is SA. Stormlight Archive. And the heroes have bigger problems to deal with now.

Don't attack me.

There's always one... 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, BitBitio said:

Why is this such a touchy subject? I mean, I'm crazy about Sanderson, but this shipping has gone wayyyyy too far. I'm not taking sides because I'm on my own side, but come on guys, it's a love triangle, and we're letting it ruin our day! 

Look, Brandon wrote what he wrote and we can't change that. Arguing between Shalladin and Shadolin isn't going to change what Brandon writes. So, I'm leaving it like this: Shallan and Adolin are now married. And, well, to you Shalladiners, Brandon might not change it. And Shadoliners, I'm not on your side just because I believe that they will stay together, but, I do believe that Brandon is leaving the triangle as it is. They have more important things to focus on, like the Dawnshards. 

SKA is indeed done. Now it is SA. Stormlight Archive. And the heroes have bigger problems to deal with now.

Don't attack me.

I respect your opinion, but please don't try to tell me which topics to discuss, because you deem them as more important. Thank you.

Edited July 24, 2018 by SLNC

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

6 hours ago, BitBitio said:

Look, Brandon wrote what he wrote and we can't change that. Arguing between Shalladin and Shadolin isn't going to change what Brandon writes.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, so please excuse my tone, but most Shalladin shippers aren't trying to change Brandon's mind. They believe that the text is intentionally misdirecting readers and that he plans to subvert the marriage. The argument is whether it is all resolved and we are pointing to canonical evidence that suggests it is in fact anything but resolved.

The purpose of this thread isn't to somehow convince Brandon to change his mind. He isn't the fanservice type anyway.

6 hours ago, BitBitio said:

SKA is indeed done. Now it is SA. Stormlight Archive. And the heroes have bigger problems to deal with now.

This is the very thing being argued. Please don't tell us what topics we can't discuss. I'm here to debate if anyone wishes to express why they believe SKA is indeed done as you have said.

Edited July 24, 2018 by The Harlem Worldhoppers

[Ashspren]

Honestly, I don’t believe that the debate is between Shaladin and Shadolin, but rather as to whether the love triangle is resolved. There are context clues for as to why both could work, and we don’t know whether Brandon will keep them together or not. It’s just future speculation based off the clues in Oathbringer, which I think is fine to discuss. In fact, in these past couple of posts, we have been talking more about if Shallan was emotionally stable enough to make a choice, and not about Kaladin and Adolin themselves.

[BitBitio]

This is why I didn't want to post in this topic.... 

[Alderant]

@BitBitio

I feel you, I really do. However, you must understand that entering a thread to tell people that their discussion about a topic that they clearly enjoy and want to discuss is irrelevant because you think "xyz" is important is going to rile some feathers. I stopped going on here for a long time because I got tired of comments exactly like that. There are many things about Brandon's books that are enjoyable--some really enjoy the worldbuilding, others are really intrigued by the plot, and then there are many, like myself, who enjoy in-depth character discussion. Much of the discussion revolving around the SKA debate is in actuality character discussion, not just simply shipping debate on which pair is better--many of us go into character theory, why they act the way they do, what the textual evidence says about that character, etc.

If you have a thought about it, please feel free to comment and let us know. Many of us enjoy debate and discussion. But comments like that can only be inflammatory at best. If you don't want to post in a topic, don't. No one is twisting your arm to do so. That said...

15 hours ago, BitBitio said:

They have more important things to focus on, like the Dawnshards.

I don't think the Dawnshards are going to be majorly relevant until the back 5. Just my own thoughts, but Brandon is clearly gearing up for this Singer/human conflict, which I believe is more likely to be the focus of the front 5. The back 5 will probably go more in-depth to the heralds' and pre-heralds' history, since the Dawnshards seem linked to those. I could be wrong, but them's my apples.

[Calderis]

31 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Much of the discussion revolving around the SKA debate is in actuality character discussion, not just simply shipping debate on which pair is better--many of us go into character theory, why they act the way they do, what the textual evidence says about that character, etc.

This. I don't care about the ships at all. I do care about the characters and the way that I read their motivations. 

I've always enjoyed character discussion, and I had to overcome my distaste for romance in books precisely because in many places, shipping is the only place character discussion happens at all. 

[Ashspren]

I’m generally a major shipper, and a huge fangirl, but I’m ship neutral in this case. Surprisingly, I’m not that interested in the ships. I find Shallan’s character development the most interesting thing about the love triangle.

[Alderant]

2 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

I’m generally a major shipper, and a huge fangirl, but I’m ship neutral in this case. Surprisingly, I’m not that interested in the ships. I find Shallan’s character development the most interesting thing about the love triangle.

Shallan is by far the most interesting character in all of Stormlight to me. Though OB took a turn I didn't like, she still remains my favorite to discuss.