Dreamstorm

SKA - Is it Resolved?

343 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Ashspren said:

I've always been ship-neutral for SKA. I will admit, though– it would be nice to see Kaladin happy. Putting his arm around a girl he loves. Kissing her on the cheek. Smiling. ^_^:wub:

Isn't it just tantalizing, @wotbibliophile:ph34r:

I'm sorry, that was cruel... :P

You make me smile. Yes, I would love to see Kaladin happy and in a happy romance.

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Adolin knows me.
What was she doing?
She shoved Radiant and Veil aside, and when they resisted, she stuffed them into the back part of her brain. They were not her. She was occasionally them. But they were not her.

It's funny that we can read the same thing and not read the same thing. I feel that this same passage makes explicit that Shallan is not admitting her feelings for Kaladin. She says "they were not her". She is not making a choice of Adolin instead of Kaladin, she's making a choice of Adolin, while also pretending people who are not her choose Kaladin. I feel my reading is backed up by what she says to Adolin's face. That Veil has feelings for Kaladin not her.

Notice as well the "stuffed them into the back part of her brain." It has been noted before that this is suppression. Something Shallan is very good at but that may not be good for her. I suppose it is enough for you that we the reader know Veil and Radiant are still Shallan and Shallan takes charge and squashes them in order to choose Adolin, but for me it reads as rushed and not well thought out. Not well thought out by Shallan I mean. Would she have to squash Veil/Radiant if she was at peace with herself?

As far as the real relationship versus acquaintance comparison goes. I think that is fair. Shallan and Adolin are in a relationship and Shallan and Kaladin do not know each other well. I still think Shallan and Adolin's relationship is not very healthy because Shallan herself is not very healthy. Well, and also because they can jump from breaking up to getting married. That is not a sign of a healthy relationship to me.

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16 hours ago, Calderis said:

The feelings that Shallan has, in all her masks, are real. There is no "fake" Shallan. They are all her. She's just conflicted and dealing with it all in an exceptionally unhealthy manner.

I think this is one of the most important things to recognise. So many people dismiss the feelings of the personas as bearing no reflection of Shallan's feelings but this is not the case. She has compartmentalised her emotions surrounding things which make her uncomfortable behind her masks. This means that something like Veil's attraction towards Kaladin indicates that Shallan has felt or does feel attraction towards Kaladin. At the end of the day, she had a choice between Kaladin and Adolin and she chose Adolin. However, the circumstances surrounding the choice indicate to me that there are still some unresolved issues that need to be worked through.

10 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

She says "they were not her". She is not making a choice of Adolin instead of Kaladin, she's making a choice of Adolin, while also pretending people who are not her choose Kaladin. I feel my reading is backed up by what she says to Adolin's face. That Veil has feelings for Kaladin not her.

Shallan distancing herself from Veil rang some alarm bells in my head. Throughout most of OB Shallan has made attempts to demonise Kaladin in her mind's eye. In my opinion, this is an attempt to justify choosing Adolin by delegitimising her other option. We see this in a very literal sense when Shallan Lightweaves a handsome disguise onto Adolin and an incredibly ugly disguise onto Kaladin. We also see Shallan dismiss Veil's romantic interest in Kaladin as 'bad taste in men'. It is apparent to me that Shallan still harbours some romantic interest towards Kaladin but this interest clashes with her 'safe' option that is Adolin. 

You may wonder why I call Adolin a 'safe' option and here's why: Shallan grew up her entire life expecting to be married off to some highlord and sequestered away in a manor. This is her idea of a normal life and we have seen with all of Shallan's inner turmoil how she clings to any remnants of normalcy. Adolin provides stability to Shallan at a point in her life where the ground seems to be crumbling beneath her. It makes perfect sense that Shallan would rush into a marriage with Adolin. Shallan is far too mentally unstable to be partnered off with Kaladin at this point in the story, although I do think her marriage with Adolin will falter down the road.

I do admit that part of my certainty in the love triangle being unresolved lies in the fact that I have grown weary of arranged marriages in Brandon Sanderson's books. I acknowledge that arranged marriages were very common during medieval times and that many cultures today predominantly use systems of arranged marriage. Maybe this is just the product of my Western upbringing talking but one of my biggest gripes with Brandon's writing, of which there are few, is the continued use of arranged marriages in his romances. I hope to see the day when Brandon turns this narrative element on its head and shows us a failed arranged marriage (no, I don't count Evi and Dalinar). I'm still slightly bitter about the contrived resolution to OB with the wedding and the eye-roll inducing 'without you I fade' dialogue. Also, I feel that it is important to note that I really enjoyed Wax and Steris' romance to date in Mistborn Era 2. I felt like it evolved organically and is some of Brandon's best writing. Adolin and Shallan's romance was distinctly cheesier and felt forced in comparison. 

Edited by The Harlem Worldhoppers
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18 hours ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

Shallan distancing herself from Veil rang some alarm bells in my head. Throughout most of OB Shallan has made attempts to demonise Kaladin in her mind's eye. In my opinion, this is an attempt to justify choosing Adolin by delegitimising her other option. We see this in a very literal sense when Shallan Lightweaves a handsome disguise onto Adolin and an incredibly ugly disguise onto Kaladin. We also see Shallan dismiss Veil's romantic interest in Kaladin as 'bad taste in men'. It is apparent to me that Shallan still harbours some romantic interest towards Kaladin but this interest clashes with her 'safe' option that is Adolin. 

I agree with all of this. It doesn't change my opinion, based on the fact that she doesn't actually know Kaladin well. 

Suppose she did perfectly integrate all of her masks properly and recognized those feelings as her own. It's still "The grass is greener" syndrome. It's being in a relationship, experiencing a connection with someone without having the opportunity to actually explore that connection, and feeling a tug. 

That's how cheating happens. You either shut that down, leave a relationship, or cheat. It's a very normal set of feelings compartmentalized in a completely unhealthy way. 

Because of this, I think she made the correct choice. She does love Adolin. She has to deal with her emotions better than she is, but her "shoving those feelings aside and ignoring them" is what you do when you're in a relationship that you want and you feel an external attraction towards something else.

A successful relationship is made by choices. There will always be other options. Choosing to stay where you are is an active choice. When you find yourself tempted by something else, you either chase after it and risk your relationship, or you don't. 

Shallan decided not to. And good for her. It's the most mature thing she's done. Period. 

Edited by Calderis
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I agree with @Calderis. It wouldn't be fair to Adolin if she just left because of a little crush she had on someone else. It's possible to like two people at the same time, but fully delving into a relationship with one of them is what defines your commitment. She made a choice, and she's sticking with it.

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I'm not sure if I subscribe to the use of "cheating" here. If it is cheating to flirt and go out with someone who is not your partner by arranged marriage then that's a problematic viewpoint all on its own, and I never felt like reading the books that Shallan and Adolin's relationship had entered the stage where cheating was even a thing until the very end of OB. Whether or not Shallan made a choice to stick with Adolin, that doesn't really matter when she's compartmentalized the feelings she needs to deal with onto other personas that she lies to herself about and considers separate from herself. I'd be more convinced of what @Calderis says if this was a mentally stable person - someone whose decisions you can actually trust in to be the products of her whole, sane mental faculties - and not a woman inflicted with what is essentially severe PTSD and who actively suppresses her own feelings and desires. 

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3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Suppose she did perfectly integrate all of her masks properly and recognized those feelings as her own. It's still "The grass is greener" syndrome. It's being in a relationship, experiencing a connection with someone without having the opportunity to actually explore that connection, and feeling a tug.

Shallan choosing Adolin is fine. It was the way it happened that was not satisfying. I would much prefer to see some consideration from Shallan. Radiant wanting Kaladin was a complete surprise. If anything, I thought Radiant preferred Adolin. We get one line, quickly dismissed, that Shallan had supposedly been debating between Kaladin and Adolin for months. I wanted to see that debate! Shallan is so good at hiding from herself. I have to assume that is still ongoing. I wonder what we are missing.

Consider if Shallan did integrate and she would rather be with Kaladin. Veil and Radiant prefer him. Adolin who "knows her" thinks she prefers him. Adolin who has been watching her, believes she has already made her choice. For these reasons, I think it was necessary for Shallan to acknowledge her own feelings in order to make a healthy choice. It's fine if she chooses Adolin, but she has to mean it.

3 hours ago, Ashspren said:

It's possible to like two people at the same time, but fully delving into a relationship with one of them is what defines your commitment.

I agree.

 

2 hours ago, Vissy said:

Whether or not Shallan made a choice to stick with Adolin, that doesn't really matter when she's compartmentalized the feelings she needs to deal with onto other personas that she lies to herself about and considers separate from herself. I'd be more convinced of what @Calderis says if this was a mentally stable person - someone whose decisions you can actually trust in to be the products of her whole, sane mental faculties - and not a woman inflicted with what is essentially severe PTSD and who actively suppresses her own feelings and desires. 

I agree.

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5 hours ago, Ashspren said:

I agree with @Calderis. It wouldn't be fair to Adolin if she just left because of a little crush she had on someone else. It's possible to like two people at the same time, but fully delving into a relationship with one of them is what defines your commitment. She made a choice, and she's sticking with it.

Even if, that relationship amplifies her avoidance problems with facing, who she is? The whole fiasco started, because she couldn't cope with the reality, that she killed her mother. She still hasn't faced that fact and now is in a relationship with a guy, that actively validates her avoidance scheme, since he apparently goes out drinking with "Veil".

There is supportive and there is destructive supportive. Adolin's behavior is the latter, since it is like giving whisky to an alcoholic.

True, she committed to the relationship for now and yet she wasn't in the right state of mind to do so.

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I don't think Kaladin would be better for her honestly, he's too broken himself to be the emotional support she needs.

And it would probably be worse if Adolin didn't support her coping mechanisms at this point, before she can stop avoiding she needs to believe she has unconditional support. And Adolin's made it clear that Shallan herself is the one he really wants, which I think is the most important thing.

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Some truly excellent discussion going on here.

2 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I don't think Kaladin would be better for her honestly, he's too broken himself to be the emotional support she needs.

I agree. I don't think Kaladin is ready for a relationship with anyone until he fully comes to terms with his past, which is in all likelihood an important stepping stone in him reaching the fourth ideal. I think we are going to see Tarah and Kaladin reconnect in the current storyline which will act as a catalyst for his healing process. In his flashback scene with Tarah in OB Kaladin is holding the same kind of stone as he is holding when he claims that he never really loved Shallan. That stone, as well as the scars on his head, represent the weight of the burdens and the emotional baggage that he is carrying.

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Even if, that relationship amplifies her avoidance problems with facing, who she is? The whole fiasco started, because she couldn't cope with the reality, that she killed her mother. She still hasn't faced that fact and now is in a relationship with a guy, that actively validates her avoidance scheme, since he apparently goes out drinking with "Veil".

There is supportive and there is destructive supportive. Adolin's behavior is the latter, since it is like giving whisky to an alcoholic.

True, she committed to the relationship for now and yet she wasn't in the right state of mind to do so.

She absolutely wasn't in the right state of mind to make that kind of choice. However, any choice at all is better than static indecision which demonstrates some level of maturity as @Calderis has said. A big issue for me with the rushed marriage is that Adolin barely knows about Shallan's dark past. He doesn't know about her parent killing hobby or her involvement with the Ghostbloods, an organisation that tried to kill his cousin. With Shallan being in such close proximity to her family, she will likely be forced into a position where she accepts the truths or she kills Pattern. I was rereading OB recently and specifically paying attention to Pattern and I believe that Shallan's bond with Pattern has weakened noticeably from WoR to OB following her inability to accept the truth of her mother's death. Continued willful ignorance of the truths she has spoken will lead to the death of Pattern in my opinion.

Adolin enabling Shallan's hiding from the truth by recognising the masks as different individuals is problematic for this very reason. At some point Shallan will have to integrate her personas and the end result may be a realisation that she has rushed into a marriage built on the premise of offering emotional stability and that she has convinced herself that she loves Adolin in order to attain this level of stability. As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, the feelings of the masks that Shallan has created are legitimate so Shallan will have to confront her feelings about Kaladin at some point in the future while she dismissed those feelings as Veil having bad taste in men in OB.

7 hours ago, Vissy said:

Whether or not Shallan made a choice to stick with Adolin, that doesn't really matter when she's compartmentalized the feelings she needs to deal with onto other personas that she lies to herself about and considers separate from herself.

Precisely.

5 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

Consider if Shallan did integrate and she would rather be with Kaladin. Veil and Radiant prefer him. Adolin who "knows her" thinks she prefers him. Adolin who has been watching her, believes she has already made her choice. For these reasons, I think it was necessary for Shallan to acknowledge her own feelings in order to make a healthy choice. It's fine if she chooses Adolin, but she has to mean it.

8 hours ago, Ashspren said:

I think there is a very real possibility that Shallan would/will make a different choice upon integrating.

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

A successful relationship is made by choices. There will always be other options. Choosing to stay where you are is an active choice. When you find yourself tempted by something else, you either chase after it and risk your relationship, or you don't. 

 

This is true. I think Shallan will reach a point where she can choose to willingly ignore the truths she has spoken, killing Pattern but allowing her to be in a happy, temptation free relationship with Adolin or accepting the truths she has spoken and integrating her personas, potentially leading to some issues in her relationship as she is forced to admit that she has feelings for Kaladin.

 

Edited by The Harlem Worldhoppers
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Okay this may sound way out, but i'm thinking that Shallan has not yet gained control over Veil and Radiant, and since Shallan has already been given her next assignment by the Ghostbloods, she will find it hard to relinquish the Veil persona. Even though Shallan plans to tell Adolin about her involvement with the Ghostbloods, it would not be out of character for her to keep delaying that moment until... never? Until everything blows up in her face? Until Adolin has to rescue her from some escapade or other? Until she gives in to the temptation to take a little detour on her clandestine work as Veil and flirt with Kaladin, who after all has no idea who Veil really is? 

Shallan seems to have the most trouble controlling her personas when she is exceptionally troubled, and after the honeymoon phase is over, a marriage is work. A commitment. (i say this as a married woman.) Every marriage comes with issues big and small, even arranged ones like Shallan and Adolin's. And when you take into account the stressful circumstances they're in, with both Shallan and Adolin dealing with their own personal issues on top of learning to live as a married couple, i definitely see trouble for them down the road. Hopefully not to the point where the marriage breaks apart, but there will be definitely stress and fights as they try to work through it and work out their marriage. 

Edited by cantabile21
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1 hour ago, cantabile21 said:

Okay this may sound way out, but i'm thinking that Shallan has not yet gained control over Veil and Radiant, and since Shallan has already been given her next assignment by the Ghostbloods, she will find it hard to relinquish the Veil persona. Even though Shallan plans to tell Adolin about her involvement with the Ghostbloods, it would not be out of character for her to keep delaying that moment until... never? Until everything blows up in her face? Until Adolin has to rescue her from some escapade or other? Until she gives in to the temptation to take a little detour on her clandestine work as Veil and flirt with Kaladin, who after all has no idea who Veil really is? 

Shallan seems to have the most trouble controlling her personas when she is exceptionally troubled, and after the honeymoon phase is over, a marriage is work. A commitment. (i say this as a married woman.) Every marriage comes with issues big and small, even arranged ones like Shallan and Adolin's. And when you take into account the stressful circumstances they're in, with both Shallan and Adolin dealing with their own personal issues on top of learning to live as a married couple, i definitely see trouble for them down the road. Hopefully not to the point where the marriage breaks apart, but there will be definitely stress and fights as they try to work through it and work out their marriage. 

Now combine this with Kaladin potentially reuniting with Tarah. Oh the juicy relationship drama...

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4 hours ago, cantabile21 said:

Even though Shallan plans to tell Adolin about her involvement with the Ghostbloods, it would not be out of character for her to keep delaying that moment until... never? Until everything blows up in her face? Until Adolin has to rescue her from some escapade or other? Until she gives in to the temptation to take a little detour on her clandestine work as Veil and flirt with Kaladin, who after all has no idea who Veil really is? 

This is what I'm expecting. The thing is... She doesn't plan on telling him, she says Veil can tell him sometime. She's already avoiding crucial parts again.

4 hours ago, cantabile21 said:

Shallan seems to have the most trouble controlling her personas when she is exceptionally troubled, and after the honeymoon phase is over, a marriage is work. A commitment. (i say this as a married woman.) Every marriage comes with issues big and small, even arranged ones like Shallan and Adolin's. And when you take into account the stressful circumstances they're in, with both Shallan and Adolin dealing with their own personal issues on top of learning to live as a married couple, i definitely see trouble for them down the road. Hopefully not to the point where the marriage breaks apart, but there will be definitely stress and fights as they try to work through it and work out their marriage. 

Sure is.

The problem I see is, that Shallan isn't honest to Adolin. And he himself isn't either - though less so than Shallan. Like with how he withheld, that he killed Sadeas, while she was chasing clues who might have did it for him. They are desperate to be together, but both for other reasons. Shallan to not lose herself, Adolin to not be the "guy that can't keep a girl". To not disappoint his family. In my eyes, that is a quite fragile foundation for a relationship for life.

Edited by SLNC
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47 minutes ago, SLNC said:

The thing is... She doesn't plan on telling him, she says Veil can tell him sometime. She's already avoiding crucial parts again.

Whenever things become too uncomfortable she slips back into the same avoidance habits. I personally think Shallan is yet to reach the nadir of her storyline. We know that Lightweaver ideals are based on self-awareness and truths. Shallan is not being honest with herself by identifying Veil as a separate entity. She has not been honest with Adolin about her tragic past or her involvement with the Ghostbloods. She has not been honest in regards to her feelings for Kaladin 'Veil having bad taste in men'. Throughout Oathbringer there is evidence that Shallan's bond with Pattern has been weakening. If Shallan continues down her current path she will kill Pattern... a second time. 

55 minutes ago, SLNC said:

They are desperate to be together, but both for other reasons. Shallan to not lose herself, Adolin to not be the "guy that can't keep a girl". To not disappoint his family. In my eyes, that is a quite fragile foundation for a relationship for life.

This is something that frustrates me. If they had not been in an arranged marriage situation I do not think we would have seen anything spark between them. Comparing the intimacy of the chasm scenes to the cheesiness of the 'Without you I fade' scene and the presence or absence of that spark is clear.

Sidenote: To be perfectly honest my judgement around how the romance was handled is clouded by my dislike for the consistent use of arranged marriages in Brandon's works. It feels like a lazy way to write a romance as the characters are forced to find some common ground rather than sparking something naturally.

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On 7/19/2018 at 4:37 PM, Calderis said:

The feelings that Shallan has, in all her masks, are real. There is no "fake" Shallan. They are all her. She's just conflicted and dealing with it all in an exceptionally unhealthy manner.

Hmm... I tend to think they're some of both. Definitely a seed of truth in her personas. Or, a lot of it really. But I think there's some level of "lie" involved as well. Some embellishment or exaggeration on top of the truth?

Edited by Jofwu
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13 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Hmm... I tend to think they're some of both. Definitely a seed of truth in her personas. Or, a lot of it really. But I think there's some level of "lie" involved as well. Some embellishment or exaggeration on top of the truth?

I don't disagree here. If it was purely true, they wouldn't be effective masks. 

What I guess I mean is that there isn't anything to them that doesn't come from a seed of her own feelings or knowledge. 

Veil's need for adventure and risk. Radiant's adherence to structure and rules. They seem directly opposed but that's only because they are magnifications of different aspects of who she is. 

I guess in that Shallan is "more true" here, because she at least (usually) recognizes the truth in that, but she's also still presenting a face that she believes is what is expected of her, rather than who she actually wishes to be. There's still an element of falsehood in her there. 

So Shallan is a thin facade of makeup whereas the others are full costumes.

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I guess in that Shallan is "more true" here, because she at least (usually) recognizes the truth in that, but she's also still presenting a face that she believes is what is expected of her, rather than who she actually wishes to be.

Exactly.

And I still can't fathom how you think, that it is good, that she is in a marriage with the man, that has never seen the other sides of her and expects her to be just faceShallan.

She can never be herself in this relationship. Especially with her trepidation to show her other sides, since she is reliant on his affection to actually keep herself (faceShallan) around.

Edited by SLNC
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@SLNC by that logic, no one has ever seen Shallan. Period.

She's lived a relationship with Adolin for months, and he has made it clear that he wants her, no matter who she is.

He's told her that he just wants her. No he doesn't understand what's going on with her. No one does. That's not the point. He wants to be with her regardless of any issues she has. If anyone is likely to accept that all of her masks are her in the end, it's him. 

I've seen your argumentation about this on both this site and Reddit. I understand the way you feel about Adolin in particular, though I'll never understand how you reached the conclusions you have.

You say it's our views on relationships that are somehow irreconcilable, but I think it's out opinions of Adolin. You seem to see him as far more self serving and thoughtless than I can understand from the character presented in the text. 

Edited by Calderis
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25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

and he has made it clear that he wants her, no matter who she is.

See, the bolded part? It never was made clear, that he actually wants that. He wants her. That is what he said, but what is her? The front, that she posed for him or everything, that he doesn't even know?

That is exactly the point, because no one can make these statements without actually knowing the person he is pledging his love for. Unconditional love is reliant on actually knowing, that the love you are proclaiming might clash with usual conditions you might have. Adolin doesn't have that with Shallan. You can only proclaim unconditionality of love, if you actually know the worst - the nadir - of your partner.

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I understand the way you feel about Adolin in particular, though I'll never understand how you reached the conclusions you have.

You seem to see him as far more self serving and thoughtless than I can understand from the character presented in the text. 

Which conclusions exactly?

I'm not calling him thoughtless at all. Him wanting to break off the relationship is actually quite thoughtful. What I'm calling him is desperate to keep the relationship going. His first objective was to actually keep a girl for once and marry her. This was his problem all along. His desperation shows, that when he tries to break off the relationship due to Shallan's leering looks towards Kaladin and Shallan tells him to just "forget about it", he just handwaves it away and suddenly his worries are just gone. If he was truly passionate about the relationship, he'd be furious, that his girlfriend/promised wife was making googly eyes to another guy. His disconnect from the whole thing is so unrealistic, that I don't see the passion in it, that everyone tries to tell me is there. All his viewpoints in OB are similar, hell, @Dreamstorm made a great compilation about moments, where he is more passionate about Kaladin, than he ever is about Shallan.

It is not hard to make these conclusions, but only if you don't come from a pro-Adolin standpoint to being with. He is painted as this perfect being. Too perfect to be human to be honest. And I just can't believe it to be true.

Edited by SLNC
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24 minutes ago, SLNC said:

when he tries to break off the relationship due to Shallan's leering looks towards Kaladin and Shallan tells him to just "forget about it", he just handwaves it away and suddenly his worries are just gone. If he was truly passionate about the relationship, he'd be furious, that his girlfriend/promised wife was making googly eyes to another guy. His disconnect from the whole thing is so unrealistic, that I don't see the passion in it, that everyone tries to tell me is there.

And maybe this is where we really do differ on relationships. 

I've been in almost that same situation on three separate occasions. And there's multiple outcomes. In two of them, I didn't bother confronting the person, because "fury" is pointless. I was sure and had no reason to stay so I didn't. 

In the third, I wasn't sure, so I brought it up and it was talked about and I trusted her. She's been my wife for almost 5 years. 

"Fury" in that situation isn't passion. It's insecurity and fear. Anger at the object of desire is unfounded. Anger at the partner is either mistrust or feelings of inadequacy in the self. Anger is common in that situation and it's also misguided and useless. Choose to stay or choose to leave, but be confident in that choice. 

38 minutes ago, SLNC said:

It is not hard to make these conclusions, but only if you don't come from a pro-Adolin standpoint to being with. He is painted as this perfect being. Too perfect to be human to be honest. And I just can't believe it to be true.

He really isn't presented as perfect in the text, although I can see how this is portrayed in the way people speak about him. This paragraph shows the "conclusions" I spoke of though. That somehow the only way to see Adolin as a good man is to have some unrealistic view of him as perfect.

He's far from it.

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16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

In the third, I wasn't sure, so I brought it up and it was talked about and I trusted her. She's been my wife for almost 5 years. 

And how did your wife react to it? That is key. Did she just tell you "it is nothing, forget it." Or, did she acknowledge your worries and actually talk about them with you?

I suspect, that it was the latter and I congratulate you to have found this person in your life, I really do. But that isn't what Shallan does, she tells Adolin to "forget about it", because Veil is the one fond of Kaladin, which is actually Shallan at the root... A thing, that you already acknowledged. This wouldn't make your situation comparable to the one between your wife and you.

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

He really isn't presented as perfect in the text

He is. I mean, the interpretation of him actually being perfect does depend on your own moral views of whether or not it was right to kill Sadeas, but the fact, that he faces no repercussions for it, does paint him as having done the right thing, despite having done a quite wrong thing (killing in a fit of rage).

Edited by SLNC
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2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

But that isn't what Shallan does, she tells Adolin to "forget about it", because Veil is the one fond of Kaladin, which is actually Shallan at the root... A thing, that you already acknowledged. This wouldn't make your situation comparable to the one between your wife and you.

Except she doesn't just say "forget about it." 

Quote

"Oh? And is that what women are supposed to seek in a mate? Is it in the Polite Lady’s Handbook to Courtship and Family? The Bekenah edition, maybe? ‘Ladies, you can’t possibly marry a man if he can’t fly.’ Never mind if the other option is as handsome as sin, kind to everyone he meets regardless of their station, passionate about his art, and genuinely humble in the weirdest, most confident way. Never mind if he actually seems to get you, and remarkably listens to your problems, encouraging you to be you—not to hide yourself away. Never mind if being near him makes you want to rip his shirt off and push him into the nearest alleyway, then kiss him until he can’t breathe anymore. If he can’t fly, then well, you just have to call it off!”

Seems to me she told him plenty of reasons why she wants him more than Kaladin. 

5 minutes ago, SLNC said:

He is. I mean, the interpretation of him actually being perfect does depend on your own moral views of whether or not it was right to kill Sadeas, but the fact, that he faces no repercussions for it, does paint him as having done the right thing, despite having done a quite wrong thing (killing in a fit of rage).

We've gone rounds about Adolin in other threads in the past. I wasn't trying to start an argument that I know isn't going to do anything for either of our opinions. I'll just agree to disagree here. 

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4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Except she doesn't just say "forget about it." 

She. Does.

The actual worry of Adolin wasn't, that she might not like him. No. It was, that she likes Kaladin too - maybe more - due to tangible reasons of her leering at him. These things is what she is telling him to wave away, because "Veil was the one fond of him".

I can quote the book too:

Quote

“Are you . . . are you sure?” he asked. “I just . . . Don’t glare at me, Shallan. I have to say this. The world is full of gods and Heralds now, and you’re one of them. I’m practically a nobody. I’m not used to that feeling.”

“Then it’s probably the best thing that’s ever happened to you, Adolin Kholin. Well. Except for me.” She snuggled against him. “I will admit to you, in the interest of full honesty, that Veil did have a tendency to fawn over Kaladin Stormblessed. She has terrible taste in men, and I’ve convinced her to fall in line.

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

We've gone rounds about Adolin in other threads in the past. I wasn't trying to start an argument that I know isn't going to do anything for either of our opinions. I'll just agree to disagree here. 

I'm fine with that.

Edited by SLNC
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I'm aware. And as my earlier posts have said, in my opinion, her "convincing Veil to fall in line" is no different then someone making the choice to ignore feelings of temptation in favor of the person they know and love. 

She isn't willing to fully admit that they're her feelings yet, but she's still honest with Adolin about the truth as it appears to her currently.

Barring her choosing no one and dealing with her issues before getting involved in anything at all with anyone, this is the best outcome. 

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17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

her "convincing Veil to fall in line" is no different then someone making the choice to ignore feelings of temptation in favor of the person they know and love. 

It is absolutely different, since she hasn't even acknowledged these feelings of being from herself, but rather from Veil and is deceiving her future life partner, that she never had those feelings for Kaladin, but that Veil did.

There is no honesty in this. Just lies. 

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

She isn't willing to fully admit that they're her feelings yet, but she's still honest with Adolin about the truth as it appears to her currently.

An apparent truth, that isn't a truth is no truth. If the so-called truth isn't true, there is no honesty.

Edited by SLNC
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11 minutes ago, SLNC said:
Quote

“Are you . . . are you sure?” he asked. “I just . . . Don’t glare at me, Shallan. I have to say this. The world is full of gods and Heralds now, and you’re one of them. I’m practically a nobody. I’m not used to that feeling.”

“Then it’s probably the best thing that’s ever happened to you, Adolin Kholin. Well. Except for me.” She snuggled against him. “I will admit to you, in the interest of full honesty, that Veil did have a tendency to fawn over Kaladin Stormblessed. She has terrible taste in men, and I’ve convinced her to fall in line.

Also important to note the use of the past tense in 'Veil did have a tendency to fawn over Kaladin Stormblessed'.

This is another misdirect from Shallan as it is clear that Veil still does have a tendency to fawn over Kaladin.

Quote

We’re decided upon this,” Shallan said.

“A worthy union,” Radiant said.

He’s good for you, I suppose,” Veil said. “Plus he knows his wine. We could do far worse.”

But not much better,” Radiant said, giving Veil a pointed look. “This is good, Shallan.”

“A celebration,” Veil said. “A celebration of you.”

 

 

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Barring her choosing no one and dealing with her issues before getting involved in anything at all with anyone, this is the best outcome. 

 I think it is the best outcome that was readily available. It offers her a place of stability to work through some of her issues. I still see it as a temporary solution to her problems however as she has been anything but honest with herself and entirely dismissive of the feelings of her personas which would impede her happy relationship with Adolin.

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