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SKA - Is it Resolved?


Dreamstorm

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We see that scene from Shallan's perspective, and know her emotional state. The extent to which that state was portrayed externally is something I don't believe we know. 

As far as what Adolin actually did... I don't think there's a person alive who hasn't done something similar. We all want to share the things we love. Most people don't have trauma directly linked to what we wish to share though. So when we miss queues that they aren't interested, there's no real harm. 

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8 hours ago, Calderis said:

We see that scene from Shallan's perspective, and know her emotional state. The extent to which that state was portrayed externally is something I don't believe we know. 

As far as what Adolin actually did... I don't think there's a person alive who hasn't done something similar. We all want to share the things we love. Most people don't have trauma directly linked to what we wish to share though. So when we miss queues that they aren't interested, there's no real harm. 

Quote

She wanted to hide. But she couldn’t. This truth refused to budge from her mind. Could she explain? “So, you’re right, but—”

“Great!” Adolin said. “Great. I brought the Blade guards so we won’t hurt each other. I stashed them back at the guard post. I’ll go fetch them.”

He was out the door a moment later. Shallan stood with her hand stretched toward him, objections dying on her lips. She curled her fingers up and brought her hand to her breast, her heart thundering within.

He cut her off. He was tactless. No way around it.

I do kinda agree with your second paragraph though. And yet, Kaladin constantly gets rust for not immediately realizing, what she meant with "fracturing"... Double standards...

@BraidedRose last post has a pretty good paragraph about, why Kaladin didn't realize it, but for some reason, these posts always get ignored.

 

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21 hours ago, Isilel said:

Even iRL in sports you don't spend months on general fitness build-up before being allowed to learn the basics - starting slow and simple, of course.

Actually, in real life sports that's exactly what you do. For example, professional weightlifters are usually trained years into gymnastics first, because proper stance needs to be an innate ability in order to learn the proper lifting techniques. But we are digressing here, IRL examples don't apply in our case, because I'm not necessarily arguing "what the proper process in learning swordsmanship is" (which I think we both agree isn't what happened here) but that Adolin, as a betrothed to a woman he supposedly loves, needed to be more perceptive about what she needed instead of what he wanted to be didactic about.

21 hours ago, Isilel said:

But neither can we pretend that there wasn't a good reason to teach Shallan the basics ASAP.

I'm not pretending anything. I'm saying out right that no, it wasn't the right thing to do with Shallan at that moment, because of the emotional trauma she has in using Pattern as a sword, but it's understandable because Adolin doesn't have any clue what is going on with Shallan, he just assumes he does.

21 hours ago, Isilel said:

But during her infiltrations, Shallan operates more like a Rogue. Which means that if her concealement roll fails, she'd likely find herself very much in range of melee attacks :D.

You mean stealth checks? Well, I firstly brought out the Wizard example in order to explain the reason of weapon proficiency, but maybe it's not that apparent to a non DnD player. I wouldn't call Shallan a rogue, she doesn't fit, she doesn't do anything stealthy and certainly not any sneak attacking, so I don't see the logic of thinking a rogue class matches. On the contrary there is a perfect match for Lightweavers in the Wizard's Illusionist.

21 hours ago, Isilel said:

So, yes, her protecting innocent civilians against such ruffians would have been doable, even with  very basic skills.

Let's agree to disagree on this one. I still think it's a lot harder to defend someone for being harmed than just killing a threat that's trying to kill just you.

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1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Actually, in real life sports that's exactly what you do. For example, professional weightlifters are usually trained years into gymnastics first, because proper stance needs to be an innate ability in order to learn the proper lifting techniques. But we are digressing here, IRL examples don't apply in our case, because I'm not necessarily arguing "what the proper process in learning swordsmanship is" (which I think we both agree isn't what happened here) but that Adolin, as a betrothed to a woman he supposedly loves, needed to be more perceptive about what she needed instead of what he wanted to be didactic about.

I'm going to disagree. When learning to play any sport in my life, we learned the sport and the physical conditioning was on the side. Never a pre-requisite. It just doesn't happen that way.

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Adolin teaching Shallan sword-fighting is one of my favorite scene within their relationship. I thought it was absolutely mesmerizing to read a character testify of so much passion into an activity he loves: no other character has given us the same amount of passion within any other narratives. So obviously, yes, Adolin is very excited on the prospect of sharing something which is so important to him with someone important to him.

*rant mode on*

As such, I strongly disagree with any characterization which somehow makes him the villain here. I strongly disagree Shallan is a precious little flower who's every whims and thoughts have to be taken with extraordinary care in order to avoid her from crumbling down. In other words, the fault in this scene is not Adolin, it is Shallan. She is the one who doesn't want to face responsibilities, she is the one running away from reality, she is the one who creates Radiant. Not Adolin. Adolin doesn't create Radiant nor he is enabling her: Adolin is just trying to share something which is important to him with a young woman he loves: he doesn't get to be shown in a negative light because Shallan is unable to assert herself. He doesn't get to be given the bad role because he somehow failed to grasp the barely visible signs Shallan might not want to do Blade training. This is not his fault.

This being said, I also disagree the optimum partner for Shallan would be the one who is absolutely on his knees, in front of her, to obey her every wish, to dissect her every words, to read her every expression in order to absolutely totally not fluster her in any possible way. This is just unrealistic. Could he have been more perceptive? Probably, but does he always have to be 100% perceptive each time he is with Shallan in order to avoid triggering something bad? Should any husband of Shallan be expected to behave this way? Even Kaladin?

 *rant mode off*

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When it comes to swordplay specifically, physical training is of course important in any combat sport (in fact personal fitness is arguably the most important factor when it comes to combat) but I agree with @Greywatch in that the basics will be taught with physical training on the side. I know a little bit about HEMA, which is modern replications of medieval combat sports, and it is mostly about learning correct stances, footwork, etc. for beginners and basic forms of parries, counters and learning to make them flow into one another is a more advanced thing. 

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1 hour ago, Greywatch said:
3 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Actually, in real life sports that's exactly what you do. For example, professional weightlifters are usually trained years into gymnastics first, because proper stance needs to be an innate ability in order to learn the proper lifting techniques. But we are digressing here, IRL examples don't apply in our case, because I'm not necessarily arguing "what the proper process in learning swordsmanship is" (which I think we both agree isn't what happened here) but that Adolin, as a betrothed to a woman he supposedly loves, needed to be more perceptive about what she needed instead of what he wanted to be didactic about.

I'm going to disagree. When learning to play any sport in my life, we learned the sport and the physical conditioning was on the side. Never a pre-requisite. It just doesn't happen that way.

You are right that physical conditioning could be done in parallel to the technique training for Shallan, we just didn't see any of that in the book.

And you have a point that they do not always teach physical conditioning when they teach sports, probably because normal people never really sport for championships but we sport or fun. It's not usually a life-and-death need, so we don't take it as seriously either. 

I still think that sword fighting needs at least the physical strength to be able to lift the sword and wave it around at least long enough for a fight (even if you have auto healing abilities), and that physical strength can only be achieved with muscle building routine exercises.

We can agree to disagree if you like and also add that IRL examples might not apply in Radiant training right?

Either way, the training method isn't necessarily the issue here. The general argument is that Adolin, as a betrothed to a woman he supposedly loves, needed to be more perceptive about what she needed instead of what he wanted to be didactic about. Love is about putting the other person's needs above your own, right? So maybe instead we should be having an argument if Adolin actually cares about Shallan's needs at this point.

 

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2 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Love is about putting the other person's needs above your own, right?

And actually listening to your partner and not cut her off, when she tries to tell you something.

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9 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Either way, the training method isn't necessarily the issue here. The general argument is that Adolin, as a betrothed to a woman he supposedly loves, needed to be more perceptive about what she needed instead of what he wanted to be didactic about. Love is about putting the other person's needs above your own, right? So maybe instead we should be having an argument if Adolin actually cares about Shallan's needs at this point.

Shallan's needs include being able to use Pattern as a sword, and she knew it was her issue, not Adolin's. 

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8 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Either way, the training method isn't necessarily the issue here. The general argument is that Adolin, as a betrothed to a woman he supposedly loves, needed to be more perceptive about what she needed instead of what he wanted to be didactic about. Love is about putting the other person's needs above your own, right? So maybe instead we should be having an argument if Adolin actually cares about Shallan's needs at this point.

Love is about being able to see your partner under his/her every color on an every day basis: the good with the bad, the hard with the soft, the beautiful with the ugly. Love is about seeing this other individual you are sharing your life with, with his rights and his wrongs, and accept them. Love isn't about pandering to someone else nor is it about constantly seeing someone's else needs above your own (sometimes it gets to be about you, sometimes it needs to be about you): it is about sharing life together, making decisions together and yes sometimes it is about cutting off your partner, being over-excited. Yeah, it can sometimes be about yelling at your partner or crying or tearing your hair out. Sometimes it is beautiful, sometimes it is ugly, but it most certainly isn't about trying to do everything your partner demands of you: it is more about finding the right balance. And no, sometimes love doesn't get it right. In fact, often, it gets it wrong, but what matters, in the end is love remains what makes two individuals choose to walk their path in life together, even if it isn't perfect.

Adolin saw Shallan fractured, crushed under her personalities and he took her in. He also saw her being passionate about her art and he took her in. He saw put her life in danger, venture into risky adventures and he took her in. He suffered being abrupt to him, dismiss him or not really pay attention to him, at times, and he took her in. I hope he will see happy Shallan, smiling Shallan, excited Shallan as much as sad Shallan, crying Shallan and needing comfort Shallan.

Shallan saw Adolin being over-excited about sometime important to him and yeah, it was hard, but she still took him in. Shallan saw Adolin being stressed out because of his father's expectations and she took him in. She saw him fight, she saw him bloody and sweaty and she took him in. I hope she will see hurting Adolin, crying Adolin, distressed Adolin, needing comfort Adolin as much as steady Adolin and smiling Adolin.

No relationship is ever going to be perfect and if relationship were to be doomed to failure because one time, one partner didn't have the perfect level of perceptiveness, because one time, one partner, pushed for something he is obviously very passionate about, then their would never relationships because no relationship can exist without those moments happening.

What matters is not what happened during the scene, but after. What matters is it did happened and Shallan still chose Adolin.

Or so this is what it is to me. Love. Complicated, difficult, but rewarding, easy and, at the same time, so hard.

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2 minutes ago, maxal said:

No relationship is ever going to be perfect and if relationship were to be doomed to failure because one time, one partner didn't have the perfect level of perceptiveness, because one time, one partner, pushed for something he is obviously very passionate about, then their would never relationships because no relationship can exist without those moments happening.

You're the only one here talking about, how this single thing might doom the relationship.

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23 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Shallan's needs include being able to use Pattern as a sword, and she knew it was her issue, not Adolin's.

Yeah, but Adolin wasn't even aware of that, he actually ignored her when she said "But..." to him because he was too self absorbed into what he wanted to do. He just did what he wanted. We are not arguing what's best for Shallan, we are arguing if Adolin is paying enough attention to know Shallan and her needs, to know what's going on with her. Which he clearly isn't in this scene. 

Quote

I can be anyone, Shallan thought, noticing a few joyspren blowing past, like a swirl of blue leaves. I can become anything. Adolin deserved someone far better than her. Could she . . . become that someone? Craft for him the perfect bride, a woman that looked and acted as befitted Adolin Kholin? It wouldn’t be her. The real her was a bruised and sorry thing, painted up all pretty, but inside a horrid mess. She already put a face over that for him. Why not go a few steps farther? Radiant . . . Radiant could be his perfect bride, and she did like him.The thought made Shallan feel cold inside. 

This is clearly not a balanced relationship. Shallan goes over the top to please Adolin because she thinks that's what he deserves. She crafted for him the perfect bride, a woman that looked and acted as befitted Adolin Kholin, even if that isn't her. This is not a right balance and not two people walking their path in life together, it's Shallan running behind Adolin's whims. Only Shallan is making the effort here and the effort is so great on her part, that causes her harm. 

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18 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

This is clearly not a balanced relationship. Shallan goes over the top to please Adolin because she thinks that's what he deserves. She crafted for him the perfect bride, a woman that looked and acted as befitted Adolin Kholin, even if that isn't her. This is not a right balance and not two people walking their path in life together, it's Shallan running behind Adolin's whims. Only Shallan is making the effort here and the effort is so great on her part, that causes her harm. 

That's may be the reasoning she used to convince herself, but Radiant is all about Shallan and her repression and nothing to do with Adolin and what he "deserves."

Adolin was literally willing to walk away so that Shallan should be happy. How it can be said that he's only focus on what he wants baffles me. 

He was excited in one moment and didn't pay enough attention. Again, I think that everyone is guilty of this. I know I have been. 

If it was all about what Adolin wants, and he didn't pay attention to her or what he thinks she desires regularly, he never would have made the offer to step aside. Hell, he'd never have noticed anything with Shallan to make him think there might be a reason to in the first place. 

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While I agree with @Calderis, I think that one way to interpret the Adolin-stepping-aside scene that hasn't been brought up yet here is that he did so for himself - because he has problems with relationships, because that's how he has dealt with relationships before. Or more likely it's a mix of both. I'd really like to know what he was thinking about when he made that offer. So, in my opinion, I think it was both a selfless and a selfish thing to propose, stepping aside just like that. 

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Also, another interpretation to that could be that he noticed she was bleeding from one personality to the next and back, from Veil to Radiant to Shallan, and realizing that her personality/crazy issues were a lot deeper than what he thought initially, he tried to flee the betrothal. There is also the fact that Veil dismissed him to get her a palanquin, it could be that his pride got hurt at that moment and that's why he bitterly said it's better to let Kaladin have her instead.

Because, I've seen a lot of people arguing that he 'stepped down' but that phrase, "I'll let him have you", doesn't sound as a person taking a step back, but a person dumping another. 

Yeah, you can interpret what happened one way or another or another, but either way it's an interpretation. You just choose to believe one instead of the other.

 

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33 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Yeah, you can interpret what happened one way or another or another, but either way it's an interpretation. You just choose to believe one instead of the other.

I want to emphasize this point that you made. Regardless of what one thinks Adolin is thinking in that moment it is interpretation and speculation because the text doesn't allow us to see Adolin's viewpoint on ending things with Shallan either in that moment or before/afterward. We have a couple instances where Adolin seems to notice Shallan looking at Kaladin and he doesn't seem to like it (though he seems to think it understandable in some way). That seems to have played into his decision since he mentions it, but beyond that we can't be sure of much. Is he heartbroken thinking Shallan loves another man? Does he just not want to play second fiddle in his relationship? Is he using it as an excuse to get out of a complicated relationship? We just don't know. So it's a moment that almost invites the reader to insert their own assumptions or wishes.

I wish we had been given a clearer sense of Adolin's feelings towards Shallan but Brandon chose not to spell that out. I'm not really believing the argument I have seen that it is a lack of page time for Adolin that caused this lack of clarity because I think it could have been done in the pages we had. For instance, one completely minor change that would have made things clearer is when Shallan offers to be anyone for him and he says, "I don't want anyone. I want you" - if he had even just said "I love you" there instead of "I want you" that would have shown stronger feelings.

Adolin has strong motivation to follow through on the marriage once she makes her case that she wants him. Both Shallan and Adolin were willing to agree to an engagement even without the presumption of love, because there were other advantages in it to them. It ended up that they got along and were attracted to each other as well. Adolin does seem to care about Shallan and I would also say he admires the person she has shown him. But he was still willing to walk away. I'm not convinced that he did a purely selfless thing in giving her up because he loves her and is choosing her happiness over his own. Is that possible? Sure, but there's not much in the text to support it to the exclusion of other possibilities. Again, I just come back to Brandon could have chosen to make things clearer. As an example (Mistborn 1 spoilers):

Spoiler

In The Final Empire, Elend is a character with limited viewpoints, a secondary character at best, but Brandon still managed to make his feelings for Vin clear with limited page time. And he was a less accomplished writer at the time.

I know some people may say Brandon may have thought he didn't need to make it clearer. I can't agree with that, however, because Brandon certainly must have been aware at how much he had built up the possibility of Shalladin. He has spoken about fulfilling and breaking promises to readers in a way that makes it believable. He needed to make a stronger case for Shadolin being right for each other and Shalladin wrong for each other if he wanted it to end there believably and in a satisfying way (or else he could have just never brought Kaladin's feelings into it in the first place since so far that has gone nowhere). There's too much explicitly in the text to cause doubt and there's too much conspicuously absent from the text (as in the case of Adolin's feelings, and interactions that we could have seen between Shallan and Kaladin but didn't). Of course, there will always be some readers who are convinced and happy with what we have regardless and there will always be some readers who aren't so we can't really go by reader reaction alone. That's why I've been focusing on the text as much as I can, because I think it is the better guide, especially after the initial reaction fades and I am able to look at it more carefully. 

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4 hours ago, Vissy said:

While I agree with @Calderis, I think that one way to interpret the Adolin-stepping-aside scene that hasn't been brought up yet here is that he did so for himself - because he has problems with relationships, because that's how he has dealt with relationships before. Or more likely it's a mix of both. I'd really like to know what he was thinking about when he made that offer. So, in my opinion, I think it was both a selfless and a selfish thing to propose, stepping aside just like that. 

I personally do not buy the argument Adolin is acting in a selfish manner when he offers to step down in favor of Kaladin.

Adolin's entire arc in Oathbringer was about him feeling unworthy of his father, of Radiants, of basically everyone, including Shallan. So while he does acknowledged having a talent for dueling, he promptly dismissed as useless as the world needs generals and not silly duelists. He never acknowledges he is good at leading men, he just naturally believes himself the inferior man next to... anyone else willing to take the job.

Shallan did leer at Kaladin in Kholinar which Adolin caught on. He did see her drawings of him. He saw them bath in the same light in Shadesmar: he added one and one together and drew out the conclusion, albeit wrong, but realistic given what he knew at the time, Shallan was attracted to Kaladin, but stayed with him out of pity. Hence, he offers to take himself out of the equation and he does mention saying it hurts and his difficult for him. In other words, Adolin does not want to let Shallan go, but he feels he needs to do it because he firmly believes she loves another. It is also worth mentioning, right before Adolin makes his move, Shallan utterly, coldly dismiss him as if he were her servant in order to go seek Kaladin.

Adolin is not being selfish: he just believes Shallan loves Kaladin and he is a gentleman enough to respect her wishes, but of course, since it is Adolin, it comes out wrong. Adolin is just not good at relationships, at saying the right things and, in this scene, we just see how much of a fish out of the water he is when he tries to do the right thing the wrong way.

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5 hours ago, Vissy said:

While I agree with @Calderis, I think that one way to interpret the Adolin-stepping-aside scene that hasn't been brought up yet here is that he did so for himself - because he has problems with relationships, because that's how he has dealt with relationships before. Or more likely it's a mix of both. I'd really like to know what he was thinking about when he made that offer. So, in my opinion, I think it was both a selfless and a selfish thing to propose, stepping aside just like that. 

Despite my earlier post arguing that we don't have enough information to be sure what Adolin's motivation is for stepping aside, I still think this is actually the most reasonable and balanced interpretation of it that I have seen so far. Bringing his past failures in relationships into it makes sense since that is at least something we have known for sure about Adolin's character from the beginning. Interpreting it as a mix of both makes sense because most people have a mix of selfish and altruistic reasons for doing things the majority of the time, and there is nothing wrong with that. Besides, in books it would be both boring and unrealistic to only read about characters that are purely selfless or purely selfish :D

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On 3/16/2018 at 5:07 PM, Zellyia said:

Welp, I'm gonna dive in with some super personal information because I was pretty much Shallan in my late teens and I dated a Kaladin once.  Just to clarify, I'm totally serious.

I was geeky, artsy, and super shy. I had my share of crazy family issues. I wished I could be like the bold, clever, flirty girls from my books. Sometimes I tried, but it all felt pretend and then would fall apart.

He struggled with serious depression and some physical ailments.  He also tried to be everyone's white knight.  If there was a position open or a person in need, he was there regardless the time or task.  Or regard to his other tasks. Or me. His motto  for everything was "It'll work out. We'll make it work."

I loved him for his heart.  Dunno why he liked him, but I assume it was because I was good at making him laugh, which he needed.

We frustrated and exhausted each other.  

I talked him down off a bridge once (quite literally, yes). He would try to pull me into events and meet people and I would go into full introvert shut down mode.

All I wanted him to do was take some time for him and us. Stop being a bleeding heart and live for himself.  

All he wanted for me was to open up to more people.

In hindsight, many years later, neither of those things is bad and maybe we'd both have been better if we'd been able to change.

But we broke up instead.  What we were getting out of the relationship wasn't worth what we were putting in.  We were constantly worried about each other and it wasn't healthy for us.

 

TL;DR:  I'm for S & A.

I think you just cured me of wondering about at old not-exactly-relationship's potential in other possible worlds. ;)

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For the record, Adolin and Shallon are surely doomed, since one of them basically has to be killed off. Since Adolin is as close to perfect as you can get in the cosmere, he'll probably die first.  (One measly murder? I mean come on! It's like him and Wayne tied for top two warrior hippies.)

But then for reasons others have stated shallon and Kal wouldn't work unless his depression gets medicated or cured etc. So they'll probably hook up once after Adolin gets martyred but it'll end in disaster. The Kal gets cured but by then he's with someone else. Obviously Syl.

 

Source: none 

References: none

WOBS: none

;)

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On 3/24/2018 at 9:57 AM, Vissy said:

While I agree with @Calderis, I think that one way to interpret the Adolin-stepping-aside scene that hasn't been brought up yet here is that he did so for himself - because he has problems with relationships, because that's how he has dealt with relationships before. Or more likely it's a mix of both. I'd really like to know what he was thinking about when he made that offer. So, in my opinion, I think it was both a selfless and a selfish thing to propose, stepping aside just like that. 

That's very interesting. When I read that scene, I definitely didn't interpret it like that, but I can definitely see Adolin backing out not only for Shallan but for himself as well. If I'm remembering correctly, Adolin hadn't really tried to sabotage his relationship with Shallan in WoR. Like maybe he did a little when he found out that Shallan was a surgebinder, but I don't have my book out, so correct me if I'm wrong. And Adolin definitely has that tendency to kill his relationships as its been discussed in previous topics (I used to be a lurker..).

So if his attempt to back out wasn't entirely selfless, is this instance the first occurence of him self-sabotaging of more attempts? And is it intentional or not? I don't know if I believe it's intentional. It's not like he went around dating Alethi noblewomen and thinks to himself, oh so and so looks like she's putting on weight, I can't date that and dumps her. No, he's just straight up inept when it comes to relationships and overthinks and typically messes up some way or another. 

I think that his string of failed relationships stems from the insecure adolescence he experienced with somewhat absentee, drunkard Dalinar and from Evi and Dalinar's relationship, which wasn't exactly happy. Adolin didn't always get the feeling that Dalinar loved him as he was growing up, even though Dalinar absolutely did/does love him and that impacted Adolin's self confidence and his perception of his self-worth, which then impacts the way he perceives himself in relationships. 

To me, it seems that he doesn't think he's good enough for his partners and that's why all relationships prior to Shallan failed and that's why I think the relationship is going to experience some major trouble on his end in addition to Shallan's issues. Because even though Shallan told Adolin that she wanted him and that Kaladin was just some pretty object for her artist's mind to look at, that insecurity Adolin has will eat away at him. He's probably going to wonder if Shallan is happy with him, if she thinks he's worthy of her etc,. And because of Shallan's well documented attraction to Kaladin, he's probably going to delude himself into thinking Shallan only "chose" him out of obligation rather than out of love like she says. (Emphasis on says, because I'm holding out for Shalladin in the future).

He already thinks that Kaladin is amazing, so how can he not think that Kaladin is better for Shallan than he is himself? I smell major marital conflict on Adolin's side in book four.

On 3/24/2018 at 1:20 PM, BraidedRose said:

I know some people may say Brandon may have thought he didn't need to make it clearer. I can't agree with that, however, because Brandon certainly must have been aware at how much he had built up the possibility of Shalladin. He has spoken about fulfilling and breaking promises to readers in a way that makes it believable. He needed to make a stronger case for Shadolin being right for each other and Shalladin wrong for each other if he wanted it to end there believably and in a satisfying way (or else he could have just never brought Kaladin's feelings into it in the first place since so far that has gone nowhere). There's too much explicitly in the text to cause doubt and there's too much conspicuously absent from the text (as in the case of Adolin's feelings, and interactions that we could have seen between Shallan and Kaladin but didn't). Of course, there will always be some readers who are convinced and happy with what we have regardless and there will always be some readers who aren't so we can't really go by reader reaction alone. That's why I've been focusing on the text as much as I can, because I think it is the better guide, especially after the initial reaction fades and I am able to look at it more carefully. 

I'm definitely in the Unresolved camp. Brandon is just too experienced a writer to end things like that. I'm hoping the marriage resolution is a red herring and that we'll get more final resolution in the future, whether its Shadolin or Shalladin. But who knows for sure.

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23 minutes ago, elbereth_gilthoniel said:

Because even though Shallan told Adolin that she wanted him and that Kaladin was just some pretty object for her artist's mind to look at, that insecurity Adolin has will eat away at him.

Important point here, back in WoR she used the same art analogy, but with Adolin. Didn't speak it out loud though.

Quote

There was a sort of rugged handsomeness to the fellow. Like the beauty of a natural rock formation, as opposed to a fine sculpture like Adolin.

Here I would like to add the fact, that Shallan actually chose natural history as her Calling.

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Big problem with ASK is that some of the imagery is more than a little confusing... Like in the scene where Adolin confronts Shallan regarding her feelings for Kaladin. They go off somewhere private to talk, and we see that Kaladin is not to far off looming over them as Adolin and Shallan reaffirm their love for eachother. Now maybe this is because I'm looking at this too much like a shot in a movie, but the message I'm getting from that definitely isn't "everyone has moved on and that's it". Especially considering how easy it would have for Brandon to have Adolin and Shallan talk in a more private/intamite setting. Of course I dont know if that means anything will continue, but it just seems odd to me.

also

Quote

Adolin wrapped his arms around Shallan from behind.

“It looks beautiful.”

“You look beautiful,” she replied.

“You are beautiful.”

“Only because you’re here. Without you, I fade.”

Brandon is trolling here right? This is bad on purpose right? 

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4 minutes ago, Arch said:

Brandon is trolling here right? This is bad on purpose right? 

Oh man. I really hope so. I really, really hope, that Teshav's eye roll was a nod at how overly cheesy it is.

I couldn't take more of that.

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