SKA - Is it Resolved?

[IronBars]

@Dreamstorm @RShara

None of that is actually textually supported, its just supposition, the point in my original post was to show we have clear indicators Adolins childhood was not good, but people say he had a great life etc, we have an indication that shallans childhood pre her mothers death was ok/good, yet the consensus is Shallans life pre her mothers death was bad, Adolins still rosey.

Everyone fixated on the shallan part rather then seeing i was saying one has evidence and is ignored (Adolins) and the other has evidence and is disregarded (shallans)

[RShara]

11 minutes ago, IronBars said:

@Dreamstorm @RShara

None of that is actually textually supported, its just supposition, the point in my original post was to show we have clear indicators Adolins childhood was not good, but people say he had a great life etc, we have an indication that shallans childhood pre her mothers death was ok/good, yet the consensus is Shallans life pre her mothers death was bad, Adolins still rosey.

Everyone fixated on the shallan part rather then seeing i was saying one has evidence and is ignored (Adolins) and the other has evidence and is disregarded (shallans)

Sorry, which part is addressed to me and which to Dreamstorm?  Because I literally pasted the quote from the book about Shallan's mother.

[GarrethGrey]

@IronBars I feel like you're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. Shallans childhood pre her mother's death is a mystery. Based off information we have on her parents and brothers, we can assume it wasn't all rosy and that there might have been issues. Adolins life pre his mothers death was probably pretty good for the most part. After his mothers death, it obviously wasn't that great. The fact that we are still comparing their childhoods is a little ridiculous, and its derailing the original intent of this thread. If anyone wants to continue this discussion, feel free to create a new thread for it.

I personally, as many of you know, do not think this is over. The ending of OB was very jarring to read, and left a bad taste in my mouth. This was not because Adolin "won" or anything like that. Brandon wrote the interactions between Shallan and Kaladin in a way that made them seem great together, Shallan seemed more herself, her whole self, around him. With Adolin, we didn't really get many moments or anything to indicate how he even felt about her.

We are told numerous times that Shallan "stuffing" things in the back of her head and not facing them is bad, and thats exactly what she does with Veil and Radiant at the end. They expressed an interest and desire for Kaladin and she stuffed them away, never actually coming to terms with and addressing those feelings. Then we have the "without you I fade" moment, which was beyond cringy, even Teshav rolls her eyes (which I felt was a nod from Brandon). I interpret the "without you I fade" line as Shallan being subconsciously literal, without Adolin, that "Shallan" mask would disappear, and she would be forced to confront herself and who she really is (which she clearly does not want to do).

Ok, hopefully we can get this thread back on track now 

Edited March 21, 2018 by GarrethGrey
Typo

[IronBars]

No at @GarrethGrey my initial point was on how people gloss over Adolins childhood, even tho evidence to support it wasnt a good one, and how people assume Shallans was bad pre her mothers death even though no evidence of that.

Was said in reply to several making a comparison, people just missed tbe point and focused on the shallan part kd the post.

[BraidedRose]

@GarrethGrey unfortunately, I interpret the “without you I fade” line in much the same way. It is far too close to literal. It seemed like the Shallan personality/mask/persona (take whichever word you pick, Brandon has used them all) was starting to become very weak at the end as she put more and more of herself into Veil and Radiant. Adolin picking the Shallan persona seemed to give that one the strength to shove Veil and Radiant into the back of her mind. Meanwhile the lie that they are not her remains a huge problem because she is basing her choice on that. So “without you I fade” does seem to suggest that without Adolin the Shallan persona might all but disappear.

Perhaps you are right that if that happened she would be forced to face that Veil and Radiant are her as well and accept the pain as Wit advises her to do. I struggle with the idea that “without you I fade” could be healthy in a relationship in any context but particularly so in this case for Shallan, who has not accepted herself and is continually looking for outside approval and guidance for who she should be. 

[Dreamstorm]

@BraidedRose I think so much of that depends on whether or not you see Shallan at the very end of OB as a Shallan mask or as "real" Shallan, and connected, whether or not you see Veil and Radiant as integral parts of Shallan or fabrications/false sides of Shallan.  Let's assume, for the sake of argument, it is "real" Shallan at the end, and Veil and Radiant are fabrications, or in a sense parasites upon the real Shallan.  If she was struggling to maintain her "real" self against these self-fabricated invaders of sorts, then "without you I fade" could be seen as requiring Adolin's support in order to continue to suppress these false sides of her.  She requires his recognition of "Shallan" as the authentic Shallan in order to keep those false sides firmly in the back of her brain.  This still sounds quite unhealthy to me, but perhaps in the year time skip Adolin's assistance in maintaining this suppression will allow Shallan to fully shed those false sides of herself so she can remain "Shallan" without needing that crutch, i.e. she can stop her "real" self from fading on her own.  It doesn't change paradigm you mentioned, but it puts it in a different light whether Adolin propping up "Shallan" is in fact a good thing.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Dreamstorm

[maxal]

12 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I know we usually don't go off on the right foot @maxal but please try to take this post in the most positive and friendly way possible.

The post is well-phrased and not aggressive: you worries were unfounded  We can disagree one with another without yelling at each other. What our dear Mods are trying to hammer into our heads is if yelling is all we feel like writing, then perhaps we should close the computer and go do something else for a while. Say run 10km to help vent out.

12 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Lin killed Malise Gevelmar and maimed Balat Davar in front of his children, please do not compare Lin to Dalinar, but as @Jofwu said earlier there is no reason to compare. Every person experiences trauma differently.

My comment was meant as a hyperbole. Of course, Lin Davar was order of magnitude worst with his children than Dalinar was: as much as I like to rant against Dalinar, he, at least, hasn't tried to physically harm nor murder his children. I however find it an odd threshold to use to evaluate Dalinar's parenting as if all it took to be a good parent was not to restrain oneself from killing the children. This being said, my commentary was using an argument we are all going to agree on which is: Lin Davar has consistenyl been a bad father to his children, his terrible actions not being reserved to the few scenes Brandon chose to show us to make the argument we can't say Dalinar was a stellar father and the events we witnessed were one time errors. In both cases, Brandon showed us broken parental relationships which are different, not on the same scope of bad, but yet are dysfunctional.

13 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Indeed a loving mother's death and a drunk father are enough for anyone to have a lot of psychological issues. You've clearly analysed and dissected any kind of text that references Adolin (as other readers do for Shallan), so I accept that you do have a strong case of Adolin having a troubled childhood, you seem to be a lot more insightful when it comes to Adolin's case than everyone else anyway.

But what worries me in Adolin, is that we do not have any obvious indications he is indeed affected as much by it as an adult, at least it's not reflected on the behavior he shows on the outside. (yes to some readers it is obvious, but to other readers it isn't, so that can only mean it's not always so obvious, so there is at least some kind of duality to the character)

I do agree with the statement wanting Adolin not to show obvious signs of distress following his upbringing: I have said as much within some of my posts. It may be what mixes the cards greatly: because he appears so well-adapted then it must be because whatever happened to him is not worth talking about. I have a different opinion. People can react very differently to trauma and not everyone becomes wrecks, not everyone reacts by closing down on oneself, not everyone turn rebellious: there are just many ways to react to a messed up childhood and I don't think there is a manual which states a given trauma will automatically yield a given reaction.

Adolin is someone very prone onto bettering himself, into wanting to please others, into not disappointing. Some kids just grow up this way: they say what they think others want them to say, they like what they think they should like, they have a hard time finding their own-self is sufficient enough to be accepted by others. What triggers it? It is so complicated and various: it is hard to tell, but I definitely think not having had the validation of your own self-worth, as a child, by a parent you love could be it.

Hence, while Adolin has no tragic scars like Shallan, he still thinks little of himself. He sill views his father as perfection incarnated. He still completely lacks the capacity to have critical judgment over his family which is highly untypical for a young man his age. If criticize, he takes for granted he is the one to blame, he agrees he deserves to be criticized. What I was trying to get at, with my previous posts, is how this behavior is very similar to the one you often see with victims of abuse. Say the woman who believes the husband was right to hit her, who thinks if he is violent, then it must because she is to blame. Now, before someone jumps to the roof, I am not saying Dalinar/Adolin is the same nor am I calling Adolin a victim of house abuse, but I am saying the behavior he has adopted seems to me like a lesser version of the ones victims of such households often adopt.

I thought this was an interesting theme to explore because it came into the narrative unexpected. 

12 hours ago, IronBars said:

I think all can agree Dalinar was essentially an absentee father for most of Adolin/Renarins lives, this circumstance usually results in one of two outcomes, resentment toward the father or hero worship.

Its evident Adolin follows the hero worship model regards Dalinar, that said i think that explains why Adolin doesn't see the faults in Dalinar and doesn't remark on it etc hes essentially blind to it, in some ways its just a coping mechanism, instead of seeing faults in Dalinar he assumes the faults are his and since he idealise's Dalinar just wants to strive to do better to try make him proud rather than get gloomy etc, its just a different form of coping then others we see in SA.

Im curious if the people who downplay Adolins experiences think Renarin had a good/bad childhood ? There childhoods would of been extremely similiar.

Regards Shallan, we don't know how she bonded pattern, just that it was before she killed her mother, so people assume her childhood was bad before that but in OB - chapter 25 the scene in the theatre - she says " too many memories of her father, and of her mother, who had loved telling her stories. She tried to banish those memories, but they wouldn't go"

That doesn't make it seem like her childhood before she killed her mother was all that bad, but people assume it was.

They assume it because they think it has to of been bad beforehand, but she had a mother who loved telling her stories, indicating she loved and spent time with Shallan, and a father who ruined himself to protect her, that doesn't sound like parents who are abusive etc imo.

I mention this because of the assumptions, people assume Adolins childhood was ok, they assume Shallans was bad, but why ? From OB flashbacks its obvious Dalinar is a terrible parent, Adolin just deals with it by assuming the fault is his and instead of getting depressed trys harder, that is as much a coping mechanism as Shallan burying the truth, but people don't seem to see that.

We have evidence Dalinar was a horrible parent, we have evidence Shallan life pre her mothers death wasnt bad, yet somehow Adolins childhood was fine, Shallans (pre mothers death) still bad , it seems the opposite assumptions should of been made to me.

Kinda repeated myself at times there apologies.

If we look back into the flashbacks, young Adolin started hero worshiping his father at a very young age. Within the "evil fighting chulls" scene, Adolin is about 4 and a half and he doesn't know his daddy. Yeah, Dalinar has been around, some, during Adolin's early years. He certainly didn't ignore his birth like he did with Renarin, but he wasn't around enough for his 4 years old son to be able to recognize his daddy.

I have a son: an adorable blueish/grayish eyes, somewhat red haired little boy who turned 5 recently. My son would know his daddy within a crowd of a hundred. My son, upon seeing his daddy, usually runs forward, jumps into his arms while screaming: "Daddy!". My son refuses to take his bath if daddy is not giving it to him. He insists daddy is the one to tuck him into bed, first, then mommy, but daddy comes first. 

My son was about little Adolin's age when I read the book and seeing a boy the same age not recognizing his daddy, being a little bit afraid of this scary man his mother pointed to him as being "daddy", to salute him: it too broke my heart. At 4 and a half years old, Adolin did not know who his father was and, when he sees him, he is a big bad scary man with a giant shardblade. Automatically, this little boy, this boy with a vivid imagination (not all kids make up their own disguise and story arcs, a lot do, but some are more keen on other kind of playtime), started making up stories with this father and one thing is obvious within this "first" encounter is Adolin wants to please his father. He salutes him. He claims he too wants to win himself a Shardblade, even when this daddy of his tells him it's OK if daddy wins one for him, the boy wants to do it all by himself.

Like his father.

And so it starts, the stepping stones of the Dalinar/Adolin relationship were lay on the ground. Adolin would worship his father, think him amazing and eventually become unable (or not without difficulties as we do see Adolin questioning his father's decisions back in WoK, but it was through abnormal circumstances and it had nothing to do with him) to acknowledge his own worth outside of what his father told him what worth was.

On the rest, I think readers are assuming Adolin's childhood was perfect because he is not making a big deal out of it, he is not complaining, he is not acknowledging what happened through it except during this one moment where he talks about how his mother died. This scene was interesting because both Kaladin/Shalan immediately sense those memories are painful ones for Adolin which is the first (and so far only) time he is speaking of events having affected him. How he has convinced himself Dalinar would have prevented Rathalas from burning had he not been hurt and grieving was just so sad...

On the matter of Renarin, I think it was already agree upon within the fandom he had a crap childhood due to his sickness. The fact he is a Radiant and hence broken implies hardships and trauma. OB gave us more insights and Renarin's life truly had its hardships, but they were different than the ones his brother had. They also impacted him differently and in a more visible manner.

12 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

We can definitely agree to disagree on this scene. And I get it, I’m a mom as well so seeing or reading about kids being abused or neglected is more viscerally painful than it was before having my son. This scene didn’t trigger me (maybe because we see Dalinar’s perspective so his warring emotions, including love, are evident to me). On the other hand, watching Elhokar try to protect Gavinor while he died: yeah, I lost it. So I do get it.

Several people mentioned downplaying the trauma of Adolin’s childhood and I did not mean to do that. I agree that losing Evi would be devastating and Dalinar was largely absent with varying degrees of affection, and that seems to have led to hero worship from Adolin to Dalinar. But I think it takes it too far to say that Dalinar did nothing but criticize, diminish and push Adolin away. There is more in the text than that. Saying that Dalinar didn’t love Adolin or abused him also takes it too far and isn’t justified by the text. I am also bothered by downplaying of Shallan’s traumatic childhood and I think it serves no purpose to compare one person’a pain to another, since everyone is affected differently.

Like many, I have a more emotional response when I first read something. A second read usually allows me to be more analytical and look more carefully at the text. In the case of the love triangle I have tried very hard to look past what I want to happen as well as what my initial reaction was and analyze where the text seems to be leading. 

It’s almost irrelevant whether Adolin would be able to relate to Shallan’s childhood trauma at this point because she doesn’t trust him enough to tell him and I don’t think it bodes well that so much of who she is had to be shoved into the back of her mind in order for her to decide to marry him.

I mentioned downplaying Adolin's childhood mostly in response to comments saying it was perfect. Perfect is an overstatement, reality was short of perfect. This being said, I do not think Dalinar's behavior towards Adolin is entirely conscious: he is a demanding man and he does not know how to love. His love is a demanding one, he loves the people able to give him something he wants, hence he loves Adolin for his potential to be his redemption, but I don't think he loves him for who he is. I don't think Dalinar was capable of loving someone, truly, during those years. I also believe this is how he warmed up to Renarin: the boy gave him something he never thought he deserved, compassion. 

For the rest, while I do agree not telling the truth about your past to the man you are about to marry is odd. I however do not think it means the relationship is doomed to fail: it means it still has room to grow, but I see not reason why this would be enough to break them apart. 

[BraidedRose]

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

@BraidedRose I think so much of that depends on whether or not you see Shallan at the very end of OB as a Shallan mask or as "real" Shallan, and connected, whether or not you see Veil and Radiant as integral parts of Shallan or fabrications/false sides of Shallan.  Let's assume, for the sake of argument, it is "real" Shallan at the end, and Veil and Radiant are fabrications, or in a sense parasites upon the real Shallan.  If she was struggling to maintain her "real" self against these self-fabricated invaders of sorts, then "without you I fade" could be seen as requiring Adolin's support in order to continue to suppress these false sides of her.  She requires his recognition of "Shallan" as the authentic Shallan in order to keep those false sides firmly in the back of her brain.  This still sounds quite unhealthy to me, but perhaps in the year time skip Adolin's assistance in maintaining this suppression will allow Shallan to fully shed those false sides of herself so she can remain "Shallan" without needing that crutch, i.e. she can stop her "real" self from fading on her own.  It doesn't change paradigm you mentioned, but it puts it in a different light whether Adolin propping up "Shallan" is in fact a good thing.

I think the point you are making here is actually the same point I tried to make in my original post in this thread: that how you read the ending and whether you think it is over depends largely on whether you believe that the Shallan we see at the end is her whole/true self or only one of her personas. In other words, whether you believe that Veil and Radiant are part of Shallan or as you put it "invaders." I know you're mostly playing Devil's advocate here  so I won't lay it all out again, but in that first post of mine I included a lot of the evidence as I see it in the text as well as WoB that Veil and Radiant are part of Shallan. Or another way I've seen it explained that makes sense to me is that, Shallan is only allowing herself to express certain parts of herself while wearing either the Veil or Radiant mask, but underneath she's always herself doing those things. The lie she tells is that she is not herself when she does or feels the things she does as Veil or Radiant. 

Wit tells Shallan that she is the one who "birthed" Veil and Radiant, they come from her. When Shallan is poised to try to give up on Veil after her breakdown in Kholinar, Wit gives her Veil's hat back (a significant gesture from someone who is trying to get her to accept herself). If Wit, who I believe truly understands what is happening with Shallan, thought that Veil was just escapism, a fantasy or a fake, why would he encourage her to hold on to Veil with that gesture? When Shallan leaves Wit and is temporarily feeling more herself she notices that she is dressed as Veil but looks like Shallan. For a moment she thinks it feels uncomfortable but then realizes that it actually feels right. She is actually a combination of all three. 

So needless to say it is obvious that affects how I view the "without you I fade" line as well as Shallan's decision to marry at all. I will add though that even if I am wrong and Shallan really is only herself without Veil and Radiant then I still would have a problem with "without you I fade" and Adolin having to choose which "one" she really is. That is simply a story I would not enjoy. Let's just leave gender out of it, I wouldn't enjoy either a woman or a man being dependent on their partner to tell them who they are and to keep them from losing themselves entirely. That is not romantic to me. And a person in that condition really isn't in any frame of mind to make life altering decisions.

I hope and believe that Brandon is a better writer than that. In real life could a couple perhaps overcome such fundamental flaws in the foundation of their relationship? Maybe, but it would be extremely difficult. But we have to remember this is literature and Brandon is writing in subtext and foreshadowing with some intention. Again, why give us such an odd pre-wedding scene (and not show the wedding) if he was trying to tell us Adolin and Shallan are right for each other? I believe he intends to show that Shallan is actually ambivalent about Adolin (part of her loves him, part of her does not and is drawn to another man). Adolin's own feelings are in question since Brandon chose not to make them explicit. When Shallan is inevitably forced to accept and forgive herself as Wit has encouraged her and when she therefore stops pushing so much of herself into Veil and Radiant, there will be a reckoning about how she really feels. My guess is then we will find out if there is enough there between Adolin and Shallan to weather it. And hopefully we will eventually get a much more satisfying romance than we have so far!

[Chaos]

Regarding the childhoods of characters such as Shallan and Adolin and comparing and contrasting: this should indeed be a different thread. It could even be two threads, one for Shallan and one for Adolin, or one if you feel it should be compared and contrasted. We are getting off task. Let us focus on whether the love triangle is resolved here.

This thread is not meant to be "here's generic discussion on these three characters." You can make multiple threads, and more focus will lead to better discussion.

[Jofwu]

Okay, so here's one thing I've seen come up a few times, which I think is related to the topic at hand...

Concerning Adolin's treatment of Shallan and her personas at the end of Oathbringer... Thoughts on that? I've seen a few comments by people who think it's not healthy. I'm not sure what I think, but I'm hesitant to jump that far with it. Feels like outright denial of Veil and Radiant might just push Shallan away. Cause her to shut down more. For their relationship to develop, that's obviously not good. So what's the right balance? How should he handle it? How will he? What will that mean for their relationship?

For those who think the triangle is still on, how do you think Kaladin will handle them?

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Feels like outright denial of Veil and Radiant might just push Shallan away. Cause her to shut down more. For their relationship to develop, that's obviously not good. So what's the right balance? How should he handle it? How will he? What will that mean for their relationship?

For those who think the triangle is still on, how do you think Kaladin will handle them?

Alright, it, in my opinion, has nothing to do with denying Veil and Radiant or accepting them, but with how someone views them.

I'm not going to repeat everything @BraidedRose said, but what Wit's advice boils down to is basically: Shallan should return to the woman she was. The woman, that didn't fracture herself into Veil, Radiant and Shallan. This is basically reintegrating all these personas into herself again. For this she'd have to accept her pin though, since that pain was the largest. catalyst for the fracturing.

Adolin sees Veil and Radiant as different people, because that is how Shallan told him it and I don't blame him. She always wore a mask for him, so he never before has *seen the Veil and Radiant traits, that Shallan possesses*.

If he really fell in love with Shallan, he fell in love with that mask, that basically is what is left of "Shallan" after her fracturing. Scholarly, a bit quirky, but the good Vorin girl. The problem I see is, that Shallan now has this big motivation of keeping Veil, Radiant and Shallan seperated, because Adolin chose "Shallan". This is counterintuitive to what Wit has told her. She might be stable now, but also stagnant, because it also is the opposite of being self-aware. She is keeping up the lie of her not being Veil and Radiant. I don't think, that it will have bad implications for their relationship though, if the status quo continues. And I see no reason why Adolin would change his view on Veil and Radiant. Problem is, that this will hinder Shallan in progressing. IMHO.

Kaladin... Now he. He has seen Shallan show Veil-like behavior (Boots scene and partly in the chasms) and Radiant-like behavior (The chasms again, where she built the alcove for them, while he had a broken leg). If he fell in love with her, he fell in love with *all* of her. Also I think, that Kaladin would be one that would challenge her, if she outright told him of Veil and Radiant. He would probably be dumbfounded and tell her, that he never noticed, because for him she always has been like that. And that is what I think Shallan needs. Not confirmation, that leaves her stable, but stagnant. But a different perspective, a nudge, that brings her to think. I think, Kaladin would provide that. And I also have no inclination to believe, that he would be unsupportive.

I've stated this before, but when it comes to mental issues, blind support can be just as harmful as no support.

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by SLNC

[BraidedRose]

1 hour ago, Jofwu said:

So what's the right balance? How should he handle it? How will he? What will that mean for their relationship?

For those who think the triangle is still on, how do you think Kaladin will handle them?

I’ll try to address what I think Adolin should have done. For starters I think a big part of the issue for me is that he just doesn’t question Shallan on this enough. He says she becomes “other people.” She kind of implies that so that’s where he gets the idea and then she never corrects him because at some point she seems to think that herself. I’ve already gone into detail on why I don’t believe Veil and Radiant are “other people.”

But the problem with that is, if he thinks she is just playing roles, why doesn’t he question why one of the roles is in love with another man? He thinks Shallan is in love with Kaladin and she claims she just likes looking at him and it’s all Veil who is attracted to him. I guess he assumes she just gets so deep into the role but it doesn’t make any sense. Veil is not a person that exists outside of Shallan so there would be no need for her to emulate someone else’s feelings. Those feelings do come from her. Adolin just accepts that rather lame excuse and Shallan manages to overwhelm him into marrying her despite his doubts. He should challenge her more, ask her more questions, try to actually understand what is going on, rather than just taking her at her word. 

Essentially that is what I think Kaladin would do if he knew Veil and Radiant existed. I just can’t see him letting that go and not trying to understand more. As @SLNC said he has good reason to believe that Shallan sometimes acts like Veil and Radiant because he has seen her with those traits (ones Shallan admits she hides from Adolin). He does notice a difference in her attitude towards him between Shallan and Veil once she starts splitting that in Kholinar but he doesn’t have enough information to even guess at what is going on nor is he in a position to demand answers from her as Adolin is.

People may bring up how Kaladin seems to admire her ignoring her pain (based on the conversation they have in Shadesmar) but I think the reason that conversation went so sideways is because he doesn’t know Veil and Radiant exist. What he is thinking of is the Shallan he saw in the chasms who was far more whole, not the fracturing she has been doing since which he is unaware of. He saw a woman who had experienced pain that would be crippling for most (as it had been for Kaladin at times), but she was able to smile and go on living. That’s what he admires and that fits with the image Wit shows Shallan of the Shallan who stands up, who has all the painful memories underneath but covers that with forgiveness for herself.

[Calderis]

Well here goes. I'm apparently writing a post about the triangle... Which I never thought I'd do. 

Making masks is not a new development for Shallan. She's been doing it the entire time we've seen her life. From the moment she started speaking and thinking coherently after her mother's death, she's been building up a mask. The face she puts forward for the world, to hide the fear she feels constantly. There's a reason the first truth we see her speak is "I'm terrified."

She's right that that crying, fetal girl who's useless is her. Just as Shallan is. Every one of these things is a partition. She didn't have magic to make the walls that hide away her pain originally, but she made them nonetheless. 

She created the girl she wanted to be. The witty, scholarly girl who has the strength to murder an abusive father, and the audacity to steal from the most renowned and powerful heretic on Roshar. 

The problem is that that original mask had flaws as well, and she can't stand her own flaws. But in order to make her new masks, she had to steal from the original. Veil is made from pieces of that fist mask. Radiant as well. With every new mask she creates, she diminishes "Shallan." She's one person, and one whole can only be split so many ways. Until she stops hiding from that pain she'll never be whole, even if she does away with Radiant and Veil and makes "Shallan" complete again. 

So far, Kaladin is the only person she's shown that inner pain to. It wasn't out of her attraction to him, which is definitely real, but out of her perpetual need to prove she knows, that she understands. He challenged her with his assertion that her life was pampered and easy, and in response she showed him that she understood. 

And Kaladin couldn't tell the difference. He saw that she has that pain. That she understood the terrible consuming darkness that can eat away at the soul of a person. Then, with that wonderful, beautiful moment of "she smiled anyway" he thought that she was able to work past it. He thinks that she's stronger than him and has no idea of the further torment she's piled on herself. 

Then in the Chasm scene, when they share their histories as they haven't with anyone else, Kaladin doesn't open up to her in a way he hasn't. He perpetuates the rote lies he's said before, hiding the fact that he killed the Shardbearer, Heleran. He realizes that he's the one who killed her brother, and after the fact still doesn't think it necessary to tell her. 

To Kaladin, there is only the one Shallan, and she is stronger than him and happy despite her pain. 

Adolin on the other hand, has met and interacted with every one of Shallan's masks except for the deepest. He does think of them as separate people, because he trusts Shallan, and she wants them to be different people. Regardless of that, on some level he knows they're all her. The similarities are to stark, and they inhabit the same body. Masks or true identities they would still be pieces of her regardless.

He's seeing all sides of her except for that secret pain she keeps, in their most fractured state, and accepts them anyway. He shares his darkest secret with her, and comes to a decision on it precisely because she supports him in it. 

He's accepting of those he cares for and trusts to a fault. We see this with both Dalinar, and in his willingness to let her go, no matter how pourly that scene was portrayed. When he does learn of her past (which I believe he will whether she wants him to or not due to circumstances with her brothers), I believe due to the Sadeas ordeal, he'll accept her need to keep it hidden, as well as the deeds done. 

In short, Kaladin and Shallan, though attracted to each other, would be a train wreck that exacerbate each other's issues. 

Adolin and Shallan have a rocky road ahead, but Adolin can serve as both an anchor that Shallan desperately needs and is emotionally incapable of providing for herself, and as a bastion of acceptance and support. 

So yes, I believe the triangle is over, no matter how satisfactorily it was handled (which it wasn't in my mind because romance almost never is) though Adolin and Shallan's story is not by any means. 

I know this is going to be disagreed with. I've read most of the arguments to the contrary. I've read the books multiple times and I know my mind isn't changing. 

[Dreamstorm]

Nice closing argument @Calderis, always good to have certainty in your opinions  This was a nice read and it’s clear you put a lot of thought into how you feel about it. A couple pieces which didn’t hang together for me:

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

He does think of them as separate people, because he trusts Shallan, and she wants them to be different people. Regardless of that, on some level he knows they're all her.

Why do you believe Adolin knows they are “all her”? If that’s the case, why would Adolin treat them differently?

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

In short, Kaladin and Shallan, though attracted to each other, would be a train wreck that exacerbate each other's issues. 

You make a good argument for Kaladin exacerbating Shallan’s issues (and it’s one Shallan is also making to herself), but how do you see Shallan as exacerbating Kaladin’s issues?

[Calderis]

23 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Why do you believe Adolin knows they are “all her”? If that’s the case, why would Adolin treat them differently?

Because Shallan wants him to. Shallan wants then to be different people, and he acts accordingly. 

24 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

You make a good argument for Kaladin exacerbating Shallan’s issues (and it’s one Shallan is also making to herself), but how do you see Shallan as exacerbating Kaladin’s issues?

Because I think that Kaladin sees only the imagined strength of her overcoming her darkness, and we see that, if not as something to emulate, then as a failing in himself. 

As a sufferer of depression myself, it's very easy to compare yourself to other people and see something as a failing in yourself, even when you know that you don't have all the information. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Because Shallan wants him to. Shallan wants then to be different people, and he acts accordingly. 

And you think people with mental problems know what is best for them? The point is that they aren't different people. All Adolin is doing is enabling her.

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Because I think that Kaladin sees only the imagined strength of her overcoming her darkness, and we see that, if not as something to emulate, then as a failing in himself. 

I only see one big thing there: She pushes away the darkness -> She makes him happy, by just being around her. Of course, it is no final solution but...

As a past sufferer of depression myself (I'm feeling pretty good at the moment, but who knows when it will come again), these people are what keep giving you hope, when you are despairing.

[Dreamstorm]

21 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Because Shallan wants him to. Shallan wants then to be different people, and he acts accordingly. 

My main question was the first part - why do you think Adolin thinks these masks are all Shallan? She thinks they are not her. Adolin says they are different people. So I’m not sure how you’re seeing that Adolin “gets it” despite how he’s acting. 

[Calderis]

44 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

My main question was the first part - why do you think Adolin thinks these masks are all Shallan? She thinks they are not her. Adolin says they are different people. So I’m not sure how you’re seeing that Adolin “gets it” despite how he’s acting. 

He knows about her illusions. He has seen her change. Regardless of what anyone says, everyone who's seen them change will to some extent or another knows that they're Shallan. They may have different opinions of what that means, but that's the reason that I said that the question of them being masks or true identities is pointless in the end. Either way they're her. There's one body, and even if she can make that body look different it doesn't actually change. Her mind is no different. Treating them as different people and actually believing that are not the same. 

56 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I only see one big thing there: She pushes away the darkness -> She makes him happy, by just being around her. Of course, it is no final solution but...

There are plenty of things that make people happy that aren't good for them. 

These people can indeed give hope as you say, and they can also be a drug. They can be a person that you cling to as a charm against the darkness that weakens as the chemicals in your brain do what they continue to do what depression is best at. 

Hope can be a horrible thing, especially when it's s a baseless hope. You fall all the further for having tried to climb.

I've been in a similar situation to the one that I see as Kaladin and Shallan, and when a person becomes a talisman, that symbol eventually fails, and the repercussions of that can drag down both people.

Kaladin has never known Shallan well enough for that happiness to be anything other than a fleeting chemical reaction. That unnatural happiness is the primary reason that I distrust their interactions beyond ever being anything more than superficial. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Calderis

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Treating them as different people and actually believing that are not the same. 

And why do you believe, that Adolin believes differently, when we have absolutely no textual basis, that he does?

36 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I've been in a similar situation to the one that I see as Kaladin and Shallan, and when a person becomes a talisman, that symbol eventually fails, and the repercussions of that can drag down both people.

Kaladin has never known Shallan well enough for that happiness to be anything other than a fleeting chemical reaction. That unnatural happiness is the primary reason that I distrust their interactions beyond ever being anything more than superficial. 

I can understand, that personal experiences might blur your view on what is happening in the books, but nothing says, that what happened to you must happen to Kaladin and Shallan. If anything, Kaladin already made big steps in the right direction with handling his depressive episodes, as the one in Part 4 of Oathbringer showed. I never said, that Shallan should be an anchor to hold on to - the final solution -, I said, that for depressive persons, persons that elicit happiness, by just being them, are a good support. Not just in handling their depression, but in general. What is love, but being happy with your partner? Vice versa, whenever Shallan was alone with Kaladin, she came out of her own. She let her masks fall and just - was herself. That is why I think they are good for each other.

Yes, Kaladin didn't get what she meant with "fracturing". That wasn't good, but the ramifications of it were good. His praise for that made Shallan extremely uncomfortable, because deep down she knows, that it isn't good what she is doing. This is what she needs! She herself needs to realize, that her current path is not good, before she can even change something. Adolin just confirms her of her current ways. And, by the way, Shallan does it, too. When he told her about him killing Sadeas, I think, he was desperately looking for someone to tell him, that what he did is wrong. She didn't.

She needs to tackle the root of her problems: Waving away anything that is painful. The masks are just a consequence of that. Kaladin's praise of it, combined with the fact, that around him - for some reason - she is herself, made her think outside the box. Outside of her gridlocked thought process. It is hard, yes, it is painful, yes, but it is the only way to solve your problems. You have to confront them and not just learn to live with them.

Edited March 22, 2018 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

43 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Kaladin has never known Shallan well enough for that happiness to be anything other than a fleeting chemical reaction. That unnatural happiness is the primary reason that I distrust their interactions beyond ever being anything more than superficial. 

I feel like I remember reading somewhere there was speculation Kaladin’s reaction to Shallan was actually supernatural (and his reaction to Tien was along the same lines), but I don’t remember where. 

I don’t think that cuts either way in particular, because I think it comes down to this: is it better to be with someone who pushes you to change (which can be very uncomfortable and potentially makes you feel awful if you can’t achieve it) or who supports where you are now (which is more comfortable but potentially enables you to remain static indefinitely)? This is definitely fact dependent from person to person. I’m of the opinion Brandon is on the side of “push to change” for both Kaladin and Shallan, so some of the things which are seen as arguably bad, I see as forcing them to think and act differently, which will ultimately be a catalyst for change. I just don’t see stasis as the driver behind the plotting, and that’s what Adolin is for Shallan - a stake in the ground for her to maintain this illusion that the Shallan mask is really all of her.

 

[Isilel]

On 19.3.2018 at 2:05 PM, insert_anagram_here said:

 Physical training first, sword fighting techniques later.

I really don't see why it shouldn't be done concurrently. Learning and holding stances, etc. also strengthens relevant muscles and it isn't like Shallan has to fear injury. Even iRL in sports you don't spend months on general fitness build-up before being allowed to learn the basics - starting slow and simple, of course.

 

On 19.3.2018 at 2:05 PM, insert_anagram_here said:

 Yes, it is only sensible to become proficient with all the tools at your disposal, but in your own time.

It is the end of the world - nobody has that luxury, least of all one of the few Radiants. I agree that Adolin blindsided and unknowlngly pressured Shallan in an unfortunate way - she might have dealt with the issue better if given a few days to come to terms with the idea, and I also think that he was wrong not to involve Zahel. But neither can we pretend that there wasn't a good reason to teach Shallan the basics ASAP.

 

On 19.3.2018 at 2:05 PM, insert_anagram_here said:

Well a good Wizard will stay far enough, on a safe distance from any close range enemies (we were talking about sword fighting right?) in order to avoid Attacks of Opportunity  (maybe we should bring a DM in here?  )

But during her infiltrations, Shallan operates more like a Rogue. Which means that if her concealement roll fails, she'd likely find herself very much in range of melee attacks .

On 19.3.2018 at 2:05 PM, insert_anagram_here said:

You honestly think that Shallan has the physical strength and experience to defend people with her swordfighting skills at this point? Yeah, she is naive enough to try I guess but I don't think she would succeed and probably at the cost of the lives involved.

Would depend on the opposition, wouldn't it? A shardblade is a dangerous enough and light enough weapon that it could be pretty deadly even in the hands of somebody untrained, when this person is faced with mooks who have never had to deal with shardblades and aren't particularly courageous or skilled themselves. Vathath and Co. thought that Shallan could have killed them when they learned that she had a shardblade during their trek to the Shattered Plains. So, yes, her protecting innocent civilians against such ruffians would have been doable, even with  very basic skills. And she _did_ intend to stand and fight in Thaylenah when all seemed lost, rather than running away.

On 20.3.2018 at 0:34 PM, Calderis said:

I truly believe that we've seen the worst of her backstory. Prior to her mother's death there had to still be problems, because every one of her brothers is a mess, and everyone was more than  willing to believe that Lin Davar killed his wife, without question.

But the brothers who are still alive were  adolescents themselves when it all went down and caught full brunt of the consequences. The twins are only 1.5 -2 years older than Shallan, and I don't remember Balat's age exactly, but Helaran thought that he wasn't old enough to lead the family yet during his confrontation with Lin. And well, depending on what they knew about the circumstances of their mother's death and how their father chose to play it, they may not have seen any alternatives that would explain what happened.

That is not to say that I believe that Davar family life was idyllic before Shallan bonded Pattern, but what happened afterwards sufficiently explains mental problems of her brothers, IMHO.

 

On 21.3.2018 at 3:10 PM, IronBars said:

Her mother trying to kill her, (supposedly because she was a skybreaker) then no one attempting to kill her later on, when its not like her father hid her existance/faked her death etc, just doesn't add up.

It does, though. According to the Ghostblood letter to Shallan, Nale had some method of tracking down surge-binders or even people who were close to bonding a spren. We see a little of it in "Edgedancer" and it seems clear that he only knew general location of his prey in Yeddaw and had to do some old-fashioned investigation to  figure out who it was. So, Shallan was probably protected by 3 things:

After the fiasco with her mother, Shallan's bond to Pattern degraded to almost nothing - which left Nale with a "signal" or whatever that was too weak for him to detect.

Helaran tracked the Skybreakers down and they decided, for some reason that he was the one who was about to bond a spren. According to Ghostbloods, Skybreakers sometimes recruit such people and somehow prevent them from completing the connection. In this light, it is interesting that Mr.T and his entourage speculated that Shallan may have been trained by Helaran (!).

When Shallan started to recover, Lin Davar gifted her with an aluminium chain - and as we know aluminium dampens investiture, so it too may have helped to make her invisible to whatever Nale used to trace his victims.

On 21.3.2018 at 3:10 PM, IronBars said:

Wouldn't surprise me one bit if her mother had in fact not been trying to kill her atal (no basis for this, just wouldn't surprise me)

It is possible that the mother wanted to scare Shallan into using Lightweaving and revealing herself as a surge-binder to Lin. Whereupon she hoped to convince him to hand their daughter over to the Skybreakers. 

 

On 20.3.2018 at 6:00 AM, Rainier said:

The bond between Pattern and Shallan is based on lies and truth. If Pattern doesn't bring the truth out of Shallan, he'll die, just like Sylphrena died when Kaladin broke his oaths. I think it's supposed to be a threat of what Kaladin went through in the chasms, and if Shallan experiences the same thing she'll be forced to confront the most difficult truths in order to revive him and progress.

How many times is Shallan supposed to almost kill Pattern?! Because it already happened once. And how wouldn't it feel extremely repetitive to do so again? Not to mention that Radiancy isn't an "up or out" system. After OB we know for sure that it is entirely possible to stop progressing at the 3rd or 4th oath and it doesn't mean that the bond will degrade. Nor do Shallan's Truths so far have anything to do with which man she is supposed to chose. They are all about her past. As long as she doesn't try to deny her past, Pattern will be fine. Which leads us to:

 

23 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

@BraidedRose I think so much of that depends on whether or not you see Shallan at the very end of OB as a Shallan mask or as "real" Shallan, and connected, whether or not you see Veil and Radiant as integral parts of Shallan or fabrications/false sides of Shallan.

Why can't they be both? I mean, large part of what makes Veil so seductive to Shallan and so dangerous to Pattern is that this role allows her to wriggle out of living with her Truths. Veil did not have murderous parents, she didn't have brothers who she needs to worry about, or mourn because they were killed by a man to whom she is attracted. Veil is older, experienced, streetwise. Dark-eyed. She never had to struggle with limitations that were placed upon Shallan. Etc., etc. We can all agree that this is all false, right? However you turn it, this is not real Shallan, it is a role. That is not to say that she also doesn't have elements of real Shallan. Her love of risk-taking, conmanship, her genuine attraction to Kaladin. 

Now, "Shallan" whom many posters here decry as fake is actually the only one of the personas who aknowledges her past, her Truths. She hadn't come to terms with them yet and she is hurting, but neither does she seek to re-write her history. Every journey needs a beginning. This is what makes her more "real" than Veil and certainly safer for Pattern. Is it all of Shallan? No. But at least it has her roots.

And let's not forget that Wit _also_ told Shallan to enjoy herself, to drink of life. Maybe that's what will give her strength to confront her pain eventually, as she must.

I don't mention Radiant, because it is strictly a utility tool, not  fleshed out.

 

[maxal]

5 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I really don't see why it shouldn't be done concurrently. Learning and holding stances, etc. also strengthens relevant muscles and it isn't like Shallan has to fear injury. Even iRL in sports you don't spend months on general fitness build-up before being allowed to learn the basics - starting slow and simple, of course.

I would add the fact we do not know if Alethkar even has a concept for fitness training... Training seem to be this moment where you start learning weapons. If they have a concept for strength training and overall fitness, we haven't witness it in the books.

37 minutes ago, Isilel said:

It is the end of the world - nobody has that luxury, least of all one of the few Radiants. I agree that Adolin blindsided and unknowlngly pressured Shallan in an unfortunate way - she might have dealt with the issue better if given a few days to come to terms with the idea, and I also think that he was wrong not to involve Zahel. But neither can we pretend that there wasn't a good reason to teach Shallan the basics ASAP.

I do not think it was a mistake not to involve Zahel. Being an Ardent, I doubt Zahel would have the liberty to openly take a young woman as a trainee. I suspect he is bound by the the Ardentia's perception of what is acceptable for a young woman and what isn't. Lighteyed women just do not sword train: this would be the same as a man openly learning how to read without being an Ardent, which arguably ends up happening, but not until the end of the book. Hence, I do think Adolin knew the only way he could train Shallan was in secret which is probably why he insisted in doing it himself.

43 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Why can't they be both? I mean, large part of what makes Veil so seductive to Shallan and so dangerous to Pattern is that this role allows her to wriggle out of living with her Truths. Veil did not have murderous parents, she didn't have brothers who she needs to worry about, or mourn because they were killed by a man to whom she is attracted. Veil is older, experienced, streetwise. Dark-eyed. She never had to struggle with limitations that were placed upon Shallan. Etc., etc. We can all agree that this is all false, right? However you turn it, this is not real Shallan, it is a role. That is not to say that she also doesn't have elements of real Shallan. Her love of risk-taking, conmanship, her genuine attraction to Kaladin. 

Now, "Shallan" whom many posters here decry as fake is actually the only one of the personas who aknowledges her past, her Truths. She hadn't come to terms with them yet and she is hurting, but neither does she seek to re-write her history. Every journey needs a beginning. This is what makes her more "real" than Veil and certainly safer for Pattern. Is it all of Shallan? No. But at least it has her roots.

And let's not forget that Wit _also_ told Shallan to enjoy herself, to drink of life. Maybe that's what will give her strength to confront her pain eventually, as she must.

I don't mention Radiant, because it is strictly a utility tool, not  fleshed out.

I agree Shallan is Shallan and Veil is false. I personally read Veil as a role Shallan is playing, like an actress. She created a character. First, Veil was just a costume, then Shallan invented a backstory, a personality, everything and each time she plays the role of Veil, she sinks into it up until she believes she is Veil. So while the role does dig into some elements of Shallan's personality, just like good actors will usually infuse some of themselves into the roles they play, it remains a role. However, with her ability to disguise herself, the experience ends up feeling so real Shallan ends up believing she can be Veil, she ends up believing the backstory she crafted for Veil is real, up until she realizes, really, it isn't. I felt her entire story arc in Kholinar was about her come to terms with the fact her "personalities" are lies she made to escape from reality and she can't keep on doing it, but she has gotten so dependent on them, she has a hard time breaking the habit. 

Or this is how I read it anyway.

I also agree Shallan is not a fake, Shallan is, well Shallan. She bonded Pattern, she says truths. She's the one having lived a life: there is no question Shallan is a real person whereas Veil/Radiants just aren't.

[BraidedRose]

20 hours ago, Calderis said:

And Kaladin couldn't tell the difference. He saw that she has that pain. That she understood the terrible consuming darkness that can eat away at the soul of a person. Then, with that wonderful, beautiful moment of "she smiled anyway" he thought that she was able to work past it. He thinks that she's stronger than him and has no idea of the further torment she's piled on herself. 

 

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

Because I think that Kaladin sees only the imagined strength of her overcoming her darkness, and we see that, if not as something to emulate, then as a failing in himself. 

I know you said you would never change your mind on this subject so I'm not trying to question your overall conclusion, but I did want to open up the point I think you are making here. If I understand you correctly, I believe you are saying that you think when Kaladin sees Shallan's darkness and her smile, he is coming to a false understanding of her or making assumptions that aren't true. In a small way I agree. I think the Shallan we saw in the chasms is not the same Shallan we saw in OB. In OB she does pile further torment on herself and is not able to deal with her pain. I think Shallan did already have some unhealthy habits of pushing things out of mind prior to OB but it's on a whole new level in OB. In the chasms she seemed most closer to her true self and specifically much closer to the image of herself that Wit shows her and tells her is who she has always been. The Shallan that Kaladin sees in that moment seems very similar to the image of Shallan that Wit shows her. To compare the text:

Quote

He saw it in her eyes. The anguish, the frustration. The terrible nothing that clawed inside and sought to smother her. She knew. It was there, inside. She had been broken.

Then she smiled. Oh, storms. She smiled anyway.

It was the single most beautiful thing he'd seen in his entire life.

Quote

The illusory Shallan stiffened. Then set her jaw and stood there.

...

A sense pulsed through her from it, memories and pain. And...and something smothering them...

Forgiveness. For herself.

...

"I see only one woman here," Wit said. "And it's the one who is standing up. Shallan, that has always been you. You just have to admit it. Allow it." He whispered to her. "It's all right to hurt."

To me these two ideas of Shallan are very much the same. Darkness underneath and something covering it (a smile, forgiveness) that allows her to go on, to stand up. Wit tells her she is the woman who stood up. Kaladin sees her as the woman who smiles anyway. I think these are two different ways of saying the same thing. So I don't think Kaladin gets the wrong idea in the chasms. The mistake he made was in assuming that's still who she was when he spoke with her in Shadesmar. At that moment she isn't the same woman because she has "piled on more torment" as you said or found new ways of hiding from herself. But if we believe Wit (and I do) that's not really her, she has always been the one who is standing up (or the one who smiles anyway). 

You mentioned one other thing that is interesting which is the idea that Kaladin might see Shallan as a "talisman," something that he would rely on to keep his own darkness away. You bring up a good point and that would not be healthy. He would need to see and treat Shallan as much more than that if they were to have a healthy relationship. It's probably way premature to assume that is or is not what would happen if they ever get together. One counterpoint to this is that Kaladin seems to be actively working on dealing with his own depression without Shallan in OB. He won't ever be rid of it entirely of course and he had another tough episode after Kholinar but he seems miles beyond where we have seen him before in being able to recognize it and think through it. And he was able to pull himself out of that episode with some help from Syl but also through working through it on his own. I found that impressive and I think it hopefully shows he will not need a talisman to rely on. 

[Calderis]

One thing that I've seen repeatedly come up in my peeks into these conversations, and it's again here, is Adolin's teaching Shallan the blade and the creation of Radiant. 

Orn the whole, I think the idea that this is somehow Adolin's fault is completely unfair. 

Adolin was extremely excited. He discovered that he would be able to share his love of the blade, with a woman he cared for, something which he could have never dreamed possible in Vorin society. Yes, he could have been more perceptive, but in the circumstances, I'm not really sure how that could be reasonably expected. 

And Shallan gets none of the blame here? She's not culpable for her inability to say no? Instead of even stalling and saying "some other time" or flat out no, she creates a new persona to face the issue... Precisely because she realizes that the lessons are necessary. 

Her she has a challenge to push for necessary growth, and a failure that is wholly hers, and yet Adolin is to blame for wishing to share something he loves, with someone he loves? 

I fail to understand. 

[Guest]

Well, I for one never said, that Adolin is to blame for it. In the end, the creation of Radiant was Shallan's decision.

But, what we can't ignore, is that he did act as a catalyst in that situation. And, I think, what I can blame him for is that he absolutely did not notice Shallan's unease in the situation. I get, that he was quite enthusiastic, but he didn't even let Shallan say something and was completely blind to her rather obvious distress.

So yes, the decision was Shallan's, but I'd wager, that she hadn't made it, if Adolin hadn't unwittingly pressured her.

But, I have to say, I'm quite confused about the relevance of that in regards to the topic at hand.

Edited March 23, 2018 by SLNC