Numenorean

[OB] Hypothetical match-up: Szeth gains access to all 10 surges. Can he kill the Lord ruler?

59 posts in this topic

47 minutes ago, Knight Oblivion said:

It's not even much of a contest. Rashek could compound chromium so that he has infinite luck. That would basically make him the Cosmere equivalent of a ta'veren. Szeth would have no defense for the catastrophic bad luck (good for Rashek though) he'd encounter.

Just as a reminder, we don't actually know how F-Chromium works yet. We do know that Fortune as a Cosmere-wise mechanic is part of seeing the future and Brandon has mentioned that future-sight involves reading Spiritual Connection but we do not know how it manifests in feruchemy. I actually asked Brandon about it at a signing since it's an area I'm really interested in and I got a RAFO. I didn't record the exact language but he was quite emphatic that we shouldn't assume how it's going to work based on what other authors have done.

Quote

Weltall (paraphrased)

That gave me the opportunity to ask one last question, about Feruchemical chromium and whether storing fortune would cause you to risk experiencing really improbable things, like the entropy curse in The Dresden Files.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said he wasn't going to answer questions about fortune, that the MAG shouldn't be taken as gospel on this point (I don't remember how it works there and didn't mention it, he brought it up on his own) and that he's planning something different than we might be thinking, for how that mechanic will function.

source

That said, since we do know that F-Chromium has something to do with future-sight, it would probably be useful in a fight but given the existence of A-Atium or the A-Electrum/F-Zinc combo, it would be only one more broken ability on top of a whole lot of broken abilities. A Fullborn is kind of like a player in an FPS with all the cheat codes activated. :D

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2 hours ago, RShara said:

That's not from any kind of a wind.  That's from her impact with the tree.  She hit it so hard, it did it's fall-down-defense thing.  And the impact was hard enough that the trees next to it followed along.

 

She might have been moving extremely fast, but she didn't affect the speed of the air

Ah. I had forgotten trees on Roshar can move.

I suppose Szeth would have to look to another surge for widespread devastation. Or he could fight the Lord Ruler next time the everstorm and highstorm bump into each other.

Edited by ghajan monk
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6 hours ago, King Cole said:

Perhaps the easiest way for TLR to win would be to Compound a lot of F-Nicrosil. [...] Then pull Nightblood away.

I'm not sure if even he can pull on Nightblood. The Bands aren't even remotely as Invested as Nightblood, and they have enough power in them to make their bearer leak mist, something we only see when R&P were directly fueling Marsh and Elend.

Theoretically, TLR's power would be limited to that level as well. Mists are a form of Shardic Power, so leaking Mist seems like the point where you are leaking excess power.

Although, if he Duralumin Pulls with all that Nicrosil Energy...

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Hmmm 

Well if TLR can find any way to kill Szeth, he wins, just by virtue of F-steel

If he can't find a way, then it's either a tie(TLR uses F-steel to get away before Szeth can even note his direction) or Szeth wins, since TLR can't actually stop him

Edited by Quickbronze
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Wasn't TLR able to Push on the trace metals in Vin's body? Didn't Wax/Marasi (with the Bands) also see lines pointing to the metal in the blood of people as well?

If so, Duralumin+Push+Pull= Meat Grinder, and not a storming thing Szeth could do to stop it

 

Even without that trick, we know that you can kill a Surgebinder by crushing their skull. For the sake of argument though, let's say that having all 10 Surges allows Szeth to heal like a gold compounder, so crushing the head won't be enough. It is still laughably easy for the Fullborn to kill him, with zero Atium involved:

  1. Duralumin+ Soothe and/or Riot - Vin used this to knock people out cold. At the very least, Szeth would be temporarily stunned (even if Plate totally negates this, the rest of the plan will still work)
  2. F-Steel to quickly down another metal vial or two, and get right behind Szeth
  3. Just for fun, throw up a speed bubble and do a little victory dance
  4. Drop the bubble and use F-Steel and Compounded Pewter to seize and shatter Szeth's helm
  5. Leech away all Szeth's Stormlight (hands will already be on his head after shattering the helm)
  6. Crush head

With F-Steel, this entire process is done before Szeth even get NB totally out of its sheath. Then you're left with a homicidal Fullborn bent on world domination that also wields NB, which is bad for everybody.

 

This fight isn't even close

 

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Nightblood would almost certainly kill TLR though if drawn.

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21 minutes ago, Quickbronze said:

Nightblood would almost certainly kill TLR though if drawn.

If he were stupid enough to get close sure. But you again have his insane mobility to account for. Why get close? 

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22 minutes ago, Quickbronze said:

Nightblood would almost certainly kill TLR though if drawn.

If Szeth landed a clean hit with it, then sure. How is he going to do that though?

Between F-Steel, F-Zinc and A-Bendalloy, that's nearly impossible.

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3 hours ago, Storms! said:

Then you're left with a homicidal Fullborn bent on world domination that also wields NB, which is bad for everybody.

This is what I was talking about when I said "Nightblood would almost certainly kill TLR though if drawn."

Edited by Quickbronze
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Ohhhhhhhh hahahaha that is not what I thought you meant. I'm guessing Calderis thought the same as me.

 

I'm not so sure though. I'm assuming it would drain his metalminds before killing him, but if he's actively compounding multiple metals, it might take longer than we assume

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I was thinking more along the lines of the "cause the person to slaughter everyone around them and then commit suicide" effect Nightblood had, but both your points are valid if that effect doesn't activate.

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Nightblood can eat any kind of investiture. TLR could use him without an issue. 

Quote

Questioner

On the coppermind it states specifically that Nightblood is fueled by Investiture, would that mean that an Allomancer burning, say, steel, could then [draw] Nightblood and fuel it off of that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Nightblood would feed off that Kinetic Investiture, you could make that work. You would have to keep that portal open, and he would eat the power instead of whatever you were planning to do with it, and when you ran out of metal he’d kill you.

Questioner

Would that also work with say...whatever you have in a Coppermind or metalmind?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes, theoretically you could make that work too. That’s an excellent question, you’re the first to ask that.

source

So he could definitely use him... Although I think it would be a waste as he's more dangerous on his own. 

As to Nightblood's "sickness" that all depends on Rashek. Nightblood doesn't know what evil is, so the hunger and madness is based on what people truly believe about themselves. 

I think there's a decent chance that Rashek was twisted enough to believe his actions were necessary. He still thought of himself as the person who would protect the world from Ruin. If he believed he was good... No killing himself.  

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Thirty-Five

Vivenna Awakes, Bound by Vasher

This chapter—with what happens in the latter part of it—is the most dangerous in the book. Dangerous to me as an author, I mean. I love good plot twists, but I worry about leaving them without proper foreshadowing. I've never done something as drastic as I have in this book, having a group of sympathetic characters turn out to be working for the wrong side. I hope it succeeds, but I know that if it doesn't, readers will be very mad. Nothing is sloppier than a book with unearned changes in character motivation.

But we're not there quite yet. Before that we have the first real interaction between Vivenna and Vasher. He gives her what he likes to think of as the Nightblood test. One nice thing about having a sword that "cannot tempt the hearts of those who are pure" is that when someone like Vivenna touches it, she gets sick. I didn't want Nightblood to come across as a "one ring" knockoff. He doesn't turn people's hearts or corrupt them. However, in order to be able to do his job and fulfill his Command, he needs the ability to determine who is good and who is evil.

This, of course, isn't an easy thing to determine. In fact, I don't think it's a black or white issue for most people. When Nightblood was created, the Breaths infused in him did their best to interpret their Command. What they decided was evil was someone who would try to take the sword and use it for evil purposes, selling it, manipulating and extorting others, that sort of thing. Someone who wouldn't want the sword for those reasons was determined to be good. If they touch the weapon, they feel sick. If others touch the weapon, their desire to kill and destroy with it is enhanced greatly.

Nightblood himself, unfortunately, doesn't quite understand what good and evil are. (This is mentioned later in the text.) However, he knows that his master can determine who is good and who is evil—using the sword's power to make people sick, or through other means. So, he pretty much just lets whoever is holding him decide what is evil. And if the one holding the sword determines—deep within their heart—that they are evil themselves, then they will end up killing themselves with the sword.

Vivenna passes the test, which surprises Vasher. He thought that she'd be the type who would use Nightblood to kill and destroy. (He doesn't have a high opinion of her, obviously. Of course, that's partially because he's let his temper dictate what he thinks.)

source

Edit: For another example of how this works, Szeth doesn't think of himself as evil, and Nightblood didn't make him try to kill Nale on that first meeting... But it also didn't make him sick. And Szeth is an ideal Skybreaker. 

Then we have this WoB about Rashek. 

Quote

PhantomMonstrosity

If the Lord Ruler joined the Knights Radiant, what order would he fit in best?

Brandon Sanderson

Lord Ruler might make an okay Skybreaker, but not a great one.

source

Not a good one... But still in that order. So I think he'd make it work without killing himself with the sword. 

Edited by Calderis
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On 3/20/2018 at 0:32 PM, Calderis said:

Nightblood can eat any kind of investiture. TLR could use him without an issue. 

So he could definitely use him... Although I think it would be a waste as he's more dangerous on his own. 

As to Nightblood's "sickness" that all depends on Rashek. Nightblood doesn't know what evil is, so the hunger and madness is based on what people truly believe about themselves. 

I think there's a decent chance that Rashek was twisted enough to believe his actions were necessary. He still thought of himself as the person who would protect the world from Ruin. If he believed he was good... No killing himself.  

Edit: For another example of how this works, Szeth doesn't think of himself as evil, and Nightblood didn't make him try to kill Nale on that first meeting... But it also didn't make him sick. And Szeth is an ideal Skybreaker. 

Then we have this WoB about Rashek. 

Not a good one... But still in that order. So I think he'd make it work without killing himself with the sword. 

I agree TLR could safely hold Nightblood.  I remember Vasher saying something to the effect of, "Denth has far to strong a will to be taken by Nightblood".  I submit TLR has a far stronger will than Denth and views himself as a savior of sorts.  TLR was the Final Empire's equivalent of a prepper.  He knew a cataclysm was coming and stored supplies to save the people he could.  

That being said, what use would TLR have for NB?  I agree with most of the sentiment here, a fullborn with metals and time to practice is vastly OP.  The only weakness I can think of is Hubris.  1000 years of being that powerful means never having a real challenge.  I would pick TLR over super Szeth in a gladiator competition all day. Change that to super Szeth popping up to challenge him like Kelsier did, maybe a different story. I think it comes down to knowledge at that point.  Does super Szeth know to go for the atium bracers?  Does TLR know how dangerous super Szeth is?  TLR knew Kelsier was a very dangerous Misborn and gave him a casual backhand.  That kind of overconfidence could cost him if super Szeth actually knew how to kill TLR.  

Thanks for this everyone.  I've been a Brandon fan for years, first post here. 

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Welcome to the shard. Have a cookie.

IMG_0050.JPG

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If nightblood can cut on all three realms, presumably he can cut FROM all three realms and Szeth can transport himself to the cognitive realm along with nightblood if he has all 10 surges. 

Also, you don't know if he will have the specialities of all classes of radiant as the surges are different depending on what you are. We don't know what effect this will have on the options he's got available, especially if he has "mastered" them all. But let's say he can fly and then soulcast the air around tlr into an aluminium iron maiden from a distance. Perhaps liquefy the ground he's on and encase him in rock, from a distance. Atium shadows? Lightweave a barrier tlr can't see through but szeth can and stay on the opposite side of it while he acts from a distance.

I think there is a lot of potential (on both sides) but there is far more known about allomamcy and feruchemy than surgebinding dynamics, hence why there seems to be a large number of people frothing over tlr being op rather than poor old szeth! 

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On 3/20/2018 at 10:36 AM, Calderis said:

If he were stupid enough to get close sure [you could kill TLR with Nightblood]. But you again have his insane mobility to account for. Why get close? 

Any defeat of TLR in single combat would have to involve a combination of him being overconfident, and getting surprised by something quickly fatal to him before he has the time to tap a zincmind (to figure out what's going on) and a steelmind (to get away from the threat). Basically, what Vin did: he never expected her to draw on the mists to power up her Allomancy to his level, which was the only way she could have Pulled his atiummind bracers off of him, and that was the very first thing she did with the power boost.

I suppose TLR also had his steelmind in the same bracers as his atiummind, too? He'd already exhibited Steelrunner speed early in his beatdown of Vin, and otherwise there's no reason he wouldn't have been able to all but empty his steelmind in one huge, sonic boom making tap to get to them before they flew out the window. (Unless tapping a steelmind would also have sped up his body's "snapping back" to his normal age? Hmm.)

Anyway, to surprise TLR with Nightblood you'd have to disguise its nature somehow, which is pretty tough, given what happens as soon as it is drawn. I don't think Rashek would kill himself with Nightblood, partly because he doesn't see himself as "evil", but also because he could flare A-copper to shield himself.

I think offensive Soulcasting at a level we saw Jasnah doing it during the time of Perpendicularity at Thaylen Fields would be hard for anybody to deal with. Rashek would have too much Investiture in himself for straight Soulcasting to work directly on him (like turning him into smoke or crystal), but if it's true that aluminum can be Soulcast, then creating a thick aluminum bodysuit around him could be annoying: he wouldn't be able to use Allomancy to Steelpush it off of him, he'd have to tap a pewtermind to burst out of it Hulk-style or something.

So maybe, surprise him with a Soulcast-from-air aluminum bodysuit as move #1, and be ready to draw and stab him with Nightblood as quickly as possible as move #2?

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Still personally of the opinion that assuming the Honorblades still functioned the way they did prior to Honor's death (where the shard fueled the surges for the heralds), then I think they would be on equal footing with the lord ruler. Having Szeth have all the honorblades, and thereby all the powers I think would help even further. From what I have seen, I believe all the powers associated with the Lord Ruler and the Heralds activate at the speed of thought. So at the same time that the Lord Ruler activated his increased physical speed, mental speed, strength and etc, Szeth could transport to the cognitive realm and then soulcast the lord ruler's metal minds to smoke (WoB confirm a regular soulcaster could soulcast metal minds as they are used to pushing through investiture). Once the lord ruler is without his metal minds, either let him die of old age, or soulcast him to smoke as he is no longer as heavily invested. Or as soon as the Lord Ruler taps all his abilities, Szeth could (since he is touching the ground) cause a huge gravitation effect strong enough that the lord ruler could potentially be crushed, or result in a stalemate where the lord ruler cannot move and must continually heal himself from the pressure, while szeth must constantly maintain the gravitational pull. Then again Szeth could then use division or soulcast to finish the lord ruler off. Division maybe affected by the gravitation pull, but the soulcasting shouldn't. Now I admit I am completely guessing on the levels of strength of the surges that the heralds had access to prior to Honor dying, but we do have  WoB that stated the Heralds had access to levels of investiture no radiant could come close to and that the blades originally were fueled directly by honor. Just some thoughts

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Couldn’t seething counter atium with the futuresight abilities Renarin shows? Assuming disrupting futuresight only requires you yourself to be seeing the future that is. We are giving Szeth ALL of the surge variants as well correct?

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38 minutes ago, Kramerfarve said:

Couldn’t seething counter atium with the futuresight abilities Renarin shows? Assuming disrupting futuresight only requires you yourself to be seeing the future that is. We are giving Szeth ALL of the surge variants as well correct?

This has not been desided so far as I know. 

Now to business.  I think with proper planning Szeth could kill TLR in an assassination attempt.  Get in close and spear throw Nightblood and you are good(their are plenty of other options as well as TLR does not take security seriously).  Gladiatorial combat gets more interesting.  Due to F speed TLR can land a bunch of realy nasty hits on Szeth before Szeth can do much.  We do not yet know the extent of regrowth healing capabilities but odds don't seem great for Szeth.  Even if TLR can't kill him via his normal methods he likely knows about aluminum's effect on healing(investiture can't heal wounds caused by aluminum) and Szeth has an aluminum sheath on him.  IF he survives until TLR runns out of speed then I put think 50/50 odds sound about reasonable and if Szeth figures out that Reshek needs metal Reshek looses at this part of the fight because Szeth can just soulcast all of the available metal into blood.

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@NightbloodforPM This topic was dead for over a year. Just sayin'.

1 hour ago, Kramerfarve said:

Couldn’t seething counter atium with the futuresight abilities Renarin shows? Assuming disrupting futuresight only requires you yourself to be seeing the future that is. We are giving Szeth ALL of the surge variants as well correct?

Probably not for two reasons. First, assuming Ivory knows what he's talking about a normal Truthwatcher sees the present, not the future. That's unlikely to cause the same sort of disruption as two people both seeing the future would. Following that line of thought, Renarin's future-sight only works because his spren was corrupted by Sja-anat so just having access to the normal surges woudln't give Szeth that.

Second, if the Truthwatcher ability is their Resonance (which seems likely) then by having all the Surges, Szeth would have too many powers so he wouldn't get any perk unless he restricted the number of Surges he used. That means Szeth doesn't get the ability to see the preset or the future so no atium counter one way or the other.

Oh, and the hypothetical situation called for Szeth to get his magic from Yelig-nar rather than the normal way, so his Surges are likely to be different in the same way that the Fused's powers are similar to but not quite the same as Surgebinders' own.

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Perhaps. But it was ackshually a thread which really spiked my ire.

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IMO, this could go either way. Is TLR is in overconfident, I-know-I'm-immortal mode like he is in the actual book vs. Vin? Or is he fighting smart, recognizing a genuine threat and using his abilities to their fullest extent? Also, how much does each know about the other's powers?

If neither is aware of the other's powers, TLR might well be overconfident enough to let Szeth hit him with Nightblood (he lets himself get run through twice in the book, and gloats for quite a while after he thinks he's defeated Vin and Marsh). That might actually work. (We know feruchemical gold healing can work against Shardblades, so I'm not convinced one hit from Nightblood would kill TLR; but it very well might, since Nightblood doesn't just cut but obliterates stuff, TLR might be dead before the healing could work.)

I don't think most of the Surges are going to be much help in this fight, since it's going to come down to whether Nightblood can land a hit or not, and whether TLR can survive that.

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5 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

If neither is aware of the other's powers, TLR might well be overconfident enough to let Szeth hit him with Nightblood

TLR was in the habit of Seeking a lot. He would "hear" that Yelig-Nar is something odd.

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14 hours ago, Weltall said:

Oh, and the hypothetical situation called for Szeth to get his magic from Yelig-nar rather than the normal way, so his Surges are likely to be different in the same way that the Fused's powers are similar to but not quite the same as Surgebinders' own.

Ah, i very much missed that part. In that case (assuming my theory on Yelig-nar is correct), then as far as I am concerned the Lord Ruler doesn't have to do anything. Just by drawing Nightblood, and activating Yelig-nar's powers, two beings will be feeding from Szeth at the same time, unless Szeth can find a way to be fueled directly by a shard, I see him going "poof" really fast all on his own. 

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5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

TLR was in the habit of Seeking a lot. He would "hear" that Yelig-Nar is something odd.

Not only that but we know that sensing things with steel/iron-sight is more difficult the more heavily Invested they are. Wax had to flare to see TenSoon's spikes and didn't get anything off of the Bands of Mourning and Nightblood is way more Invested than the Bands. Even if Rashek's better at punching through that kind of interference he's still going to notice that Nightblood is massively Invested and conclude that he probably doesn't want to get hit with it, even if he doesn't know exactly what it would do to him. Letting himself get hit by a spear that he knows is just a normal weapon is one thing, letting himself get hit by something that he knows is unnatural is quite another. He may be arrogant but I don't think he's that arrogant.

So yeah, Rashek's got a couple approaches to determine that Szeth is (potentially at least) unusually dangerous so I think he'd be much more on his guard than he was with Vin.

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