[OB] Bondsmiths running up walls?

[Quickbronze]

The title is a bit of a misnomer; I know Bondsmiths can run up walls. 

I know this from two scenes in Oathbringer; the Sigzil scene where he talks to Kaladin about organizing Bridge Four, and the Dalinar scene where he breaks up a wild practice battle between the Sadeas' and Amaram troops. 

In the Dalinar scene, we see him use Adhesion to stick the front lines of the two groups of soldiers to the ground in order to get them to calm down. Once the fighting has stopped, he dismisses the stormlight, thus freeing the soldiers. 

We know it would be possible for a Bondsmith to apply Adhesion to his footwear and walk up a wall, dismissing the stormlight attaching him when he needs to move again. The main problem here is that the bondsmith's body would still be pulled towards the ground and he might even break his ankles if he is unable to resist this force. However, stormlight and training may be able to compensate. Barring that, he could always use his hands and climb in a more traditional posture, hanging by his hands or using all four limbs. With practice, he could become quite fast at the process of moving up, sticking a limb to the wall, unsticking another limb, moving up with that one, sticking it to the wall, and repeating. The problem here is that, assuming the Radiant is unable to apply Adhesion to themselves, they would need to wear tight gloves and footwear in order to prevent themselves from slipping out of the things actually holding them to the wall. If they can apply it to their own bodies, than that isn't a problem. 

True, the two things needed to assume this is possible are relatively easy to assume and most of you have probably already figured this out as a possibility. 

With this in mind I think that Windrunners should be renamed Wallrunners, since both their surges allow them to move over walls and ceilings. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Quickbronze
Response to a post

[RagingTuturtle]

I feel as if this is a great idea, but with a few potential flaws. Namely I do not believe Bomdsmiths nor Windrunners would be able to move very effectively with this method. The surge  that would be used has been said to use a lot more stormlight than other surges, but the main problem is that you need to spend time infusing an object with stormlight and then sticking it on another object. (Don’t think it works on skin.) so a potential Bondsmith, who is a huge spider man fan, would need gloves and boots, and need to take time to infuse them. (And clothing is not the best thing to be holding a good deal of your weight. Kaladin using stones to climb was a much better idea.) They could certainly climb up walls with ample time and stormlight if they needed to, but it would be a tad ineffective.

[Quickbronze]

27 minutes ago, RagingTuturtle said:

I feel as if this is a great idea, but with a few potential flaws. Namely I do not believe Bomdsmiths nor Windrunners would be able to move very effectively with this method. The surge  that would be used has been said to use a lot more stormlight than other surges, but the main problem is that you need to spend time infusing an object with stormlight and then sticking it on another object. (Don’t think it works on skin.) so a potential Bondsmith, who is a huge spider man fan, would need gloves and boots, and need to take time to infuse them. (And clothing is not the best thing to be holding a good deal of your weight. Kaladin using stones to climb was a much better idea.) They could certainly climb up walls with ample time and stormlight if they needed to, but it would be a tad ineffective.

Well, it doesn't really take any time to use Adhesion, so you don't really need to stop very long to do that. The problems with stormlight and being unable to apply Adhesion to yourself are valid concerns. I don't recall any scene in the books directly proving or disproving the possibility of applying Adhesion to yourself. The fact that a Windrunner or Skybreaker can use lashings on themselves suggests to me that it is possible; however, the fact that neither Dalinar nor Kaladin has attempted to do something like what I describe could be used to make an argument that they can't.

[RagingTuturtle]

41 minutes ago, Quickbronze said:

Well, it doesn't really take any time to use Adhesion, so you don't really need to stop very long to do that. The problems with stormlight and being unable to apply Adhesion to yourself are valid concerns. I don't recall any scene in the books directly proving or disproving the possibility of applying Adhesion to yourself. The fact that a Windrunner or Skybreaker can use lashings on themselves suggests to me that it is possible; however, the fact that neither Dalinar nor Kaladin has attempted to do something like what I describe could be used to make an argument that they can't.

Doesn’t it take time to use adhesion? As you have to touch an object and then force an amount of stormlight in. Alas you are right in the fact that there is not enough data about this surge to draw conclusions. I at least would love to see Dalinar scurry up a wall like a spider. “The Blackthorn’s at it again.”

[Quickbronze]

The time it takes to use Adhesion is just the time you take to force stormlight into the material. 

[Weltall]

Adhesion doesn't allow for literal wall-running because gravity is still a thing and will be constantly pulling you down (or 'backwards' from the perspective of the person trying to wall-walk). Using Stormlight to strengthen the muscles and heal the damage you're doing to your spine would be ludicrously inefficient if not impossible. If you ever played on bars in the playground as a child, you probably tried all kinds of crazy swinging at one point or another. Adhesion wall-walking would be akin to hanging from a horizontal bar and trying to pull yourself parallel to the ground and then stay there perpetually.

Climbing normally with Adhesion is more sensible (we see Kaladin doing it before he masters Gravitation, albeit using rocks he places as handholds) but it's still no faster than ordinary climbing so there aren't going to be very many circumstances in which it's really a useful ability. That sort of thing is really the Edgedancer/Dustbringer area of expertise.

[Quickbronze]

It would be much easier than normal climbing though, and faster with enough practice. There's still the stormlight issue, and there aren't a ton of situations where it's necessary to climb walls anyways, so this isn't super useful, but it's still a fun thing for Bondsmiths(and Windrunners seeking a challenge) to do. 

[RagingTuturtle]

7 hours ago, Quickbronze said:

It would be much easier than normal climbing though, and faster with enough practice. There's still the stormlight issue, and there aren't a ton of situations where it's necessary to climb walls anyways, so this isn't super useful, but it's still a fun thing for Bondsmiths(and Windrunners seeking a challenge) to do. 

I still have a problem with the idea of them being “fast” sure if you had enough of a substance to attach to a wall. But that would be a hassle after a while to carry a bunch of rocks in a satchel, basing on what Kaladin experimented with before he used gravitation. It would be like rock climbing but needing to carry and stick on the hand and footholds. Possible but not extremely practical unless in extreme circumstances. 

[Quickbronze]

1 minute ago, RagingTuturtle said:

I still have a problem with the idea of them being “fast” sure if you had enough of a substance to attach to a wall. But that would be a hassle after a while to carry a bunch of rocks in a satchel, basing on what Kaladin experimented with before he used gravitation. It would be like rock climbing but needing to carry and stick on the hand and footholds. Possible but not extremely practical unless in extreme circumstances. 

What Kaladin did is... not what I'm talking about. For this method the only rocks you need to carry around are the ones you keep stormlight in.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Quickbronze

[RagingTuturtle]

Just now, Quickbronze said:

What Kaladin did is... not what I'm talking about

But what else would you use to climb up walls? You need to stick something on as I’m not sure it works on skin. I wouldn’t suggest using an article of clothing to support your weight. What do you imagine them using in this scenario?

[Quickbronze]

Tight gloves and shoes. Barring that, they could always use specially made gear or even rocks, but instead of forming a ladder for themselves, they use Adhesion on one item, stick it to a wall, use Adhesion on the second item, place it higher on the wall, remove the stormlight from the first and repeat the process.

I also just realized that they could apply adhesion to the surface instead of their skin, which makes it irrelevant whether they can apply Adhesion to their own skin or not.

[Kaladin Zahel]

Didn't Kaladin use adhesion to stick to Szeth when they fell from the palace? At least that is the impression I got. If true, it sure seems that adhesion works on skin.

Also, a raidant climbing spidey style would be pretty quick because of the athletic boost the bond/stormlight bestows.

[Yata]

3 hours ago, Kaladin Zahel said:

Didn't Kaladin use adhesion to stick to Szeth when they fell from the palace? At least that is the impression I got. If true, it sure seems that adhesion works on skin.

Also, a raidant climbing spidey style would be pretty quick because of the athletic boost the bond/stormlight bestows.

Adhesion works on skin this is sure but it works a bit less (because Investiture resists investiture and living beings are more invested than rocks)

[+ElephantEarwax]

My initial thought was and is breaking his ankles constantly.

[RagingTuturtle]

Can someone find a quote or a WoB that proves the sticking to skin because I’m still a little skeptical. If it can, then I don’t see a problem with this idea, but if it can’t then the idea of using gloves bothers me because it is a bad idea to use cloth to hold your entire weight. Also with the idea of unsticking something and using it over and over, that would work if you only had two things and only used your arms. (Sticking one, placing the other while you hang on with one arm.)

[Draigon]

I don't have the text, but Lopen did manage to stick his face to the ground. I can't imagine that having been anything other than his skin on the stone.

[Quickbronze]

20 minutes ago, RagingTuturtle said:

Can someone find a quote or a WoB that proves the sticking to skin because I’m still a little skeptical. If it can, then I don’t see a problem with this idea, but if it can’t then the idea of using gloves bothers me because it is a bad idea to use cloth to hold your entire weight. Also with the idea of unsticking something and using it over and over, that would work if you only had two things and only used your arms. (Sticking one, placing the other while you hang on with one arm.)

It doesn't matter whether he can apply it directly to his skin, he can apply it to the surface he's climbing.

 

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Quickbronze said:

It doesn't matter whether he can apply it directly to his skin, he can apply it to the surface he's climbing.

If he can't apply it to himself at will, yes it does. Just like Kaladin doesn't stick to his own adhesion stuff when practicing in the chasms and wrestling rock. If he can't stick to it at all, then the only option is, like Kaladin did, to stick things to the wall and climb with them, which is never going to be as fast as "running up walls." 

[Yata]

Probably the other Surge will be' more helpful to a Bondsmith to climb.

He could Simply melt/soft the surface crafting his own grip points to climb thanks to them

[Quickbronze]

Didn't the Stormfather say the Surge wouldn't work the same way for him as it does for Stonewards?

That doesn't necessarily mean he can't use it in a similar way, I suppose.

[Yata]

3 minutes ago, Quickbronze said:

Didn't the Stormfather say the Surge wouldn't work the same way for him as it does for Stonewards?

That doesn't necessarily mean he can't use it in a similar way, I suppose.

He already did, when he fixed the temple.

He could mend the Stone because they turn soft in the broken section and Dalinar could put them together

[Quickbronze]

I'm just disinclined to think he can make handholds for himself in a similar way due to the fact that a Stoneward did that exact thing in one of his visions, and the Stormfather then explicitly stated the Surge wouldn't serve him in the same manner.

[Calderis]

Dalinar has the surge of Tension, not Cohesion. He can't soften things in that manner. 

[Xaladin]

Kind of like Vin Juggling horse shoes? Dalinar would have to get really good at putting a fixed small amount of Stormlight on things. Obviously he would do this to climb with all fours, not walk horizontally. It would be like climbing with suction cups, like this:

 

Edited March 19, 2018 by Xaladin
typo

[The One Who Connects]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

If he can't apply it to himself at will, yes it does. Just like Kaladin doesn't stick to his own adhesion stuff when practicing in the chasms and wrestling rock. If he can't stick to it at all, then the only option is, like Kaladin did, to stick things to the wall and climb with them, which is never going to be as fast as "running up walls." 

It's a matter of choice whether he gets stuck too.

Quote

Jasuni
When Szeth walked through an area he had lashed in Interlude-9, could he have decided to let himself be affected by his own full lashing?

Brandon Sanderson
Using a full lashing to stick yourself to something is inherently inferior to changing the gravitational pull and being able to move on that plane instead. So I see very rare instances where you would want to. But it is within the scope of the powers to be affected by it if he wanted to be.